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Grade the Off-Season

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Posted: 2/13/2013 9:26 AM

Grade the Off-Season 


Figured the time is right now that Bourn is no longer an option.

TRADES

Acquired C Travis d'Arnaud, C John Buck, RHP Noah Syndergaard, and OF Wuilmer Becerra for RHP R.A. Dickey, C Josh Thole, and C Mike Nickeas

Acquired OF Colin Cowgill for 3B Jefry Marte

MAJOR LEAGUE SIGNINGS

Signed 3B David Wright to 8/138 contract extension
Signed RHP Shaun Marcum to 1/4 contract
Signed RHP Brandon Lyon to 1/0.75 contract

NOTABLE MINOR LEAGUE SIGNINGS

C Landon Powell
C Anthony Recker
INF Omar Quintanilla
INF Brian Bixler
INF Brandon Hicks
OF Andrew Brown
OF Marlon Byrd
OF Corey Patterson
OF Jamie Hoffmann
RHP Scott Atchinson
RHP LaTroy Hawkins
RHP Greg Burke
LHP Pedro Feliciano
LHP Aaron Laffey
LHP Tim Byrdak

RELEASED/NOT RE-SIGNED

C Kelly Shoppach
INF Ronny Cedeno
OF Scott Hairston
OF Jason Bay
OF Andres Torres
RHP Mike Pelfrey
RHP Manny Acosta
RHP John Rauch
RHP Ramon Ramirez
RHP Chris Young

(don't think I missed anyone...)

    What grade would you give Mets for off-season?

  1. Poll closed on 02/20/2013
  2. A: 0 votes
  3. B: 18 votes
  4. C: 17 votes
  5. D: 7 votes
  6. F: 1 vote


17 & 14 = Best Duo In NY Sports
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Posted: 2/13/2013 9:40 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 


My totally unscientific math:

* Dickey trade/receiving top prospects and backfilling RAD with Marcum - A

* Somehow leaving the OF even worse than it was in 2012 and it was BAD in 2012 - F

* Lyon and a couple of flyers leave us on paper very similar to weak '12 bullpen- C

That averages out to a C.  You could argue that the 3 things shouldn't be given equal weight but if anything I think the OF should be weighted heaviest.  The FO deserves to be dinged for the state of the OF.  It was incredibly low hanging fruit to improve it and they somehow went backwards.  For no rational reason I'm actually kind of optimistic about the bullpen but on paper I don't think it is any better than it looked at the start of '12.  Hence the C grade.

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Posted: 2/13/2013 9:44 AM

RE: Grade the Off-Season 


Voted C, lack of major league signings to upgrade the OF really brought the offseason down. Really like the return on the trade for Dickey. It's rare these days to have a long term solution at the catcher position, hopefully TDA can be a top 5 catcher within 3-4 years. Can't argue with the players that were released or not re-signed except for Hairston. For the deal he got the Mets should have brought him back. Like the Marcum deal and the tweaks to the BP, especially not giving out the contracts like last offseason to the likes of FF and Rauch. The Cowgill deal might be the sleeper move.
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Posted: 2/13/2013 9:48 AM

RE: Grade the Off-Season 


C for me, also.

- Didn't love the Wright extension; length - more than anything.
- Liked the Dickey deal.
- Not bringing in a legitimate upgrade to the outfield hurts the overall grade.

Lot hinging on "cross your finger" guys.

"Use your head.....that's that lump 3 feet above your arse." - Jimmy Dugan

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Posted: 2/13/2013 9:57 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 



MookieLJL wrote:

My totally unscientific math:

* Dickey trade/receiving top prospects and backfilling RAD with Marcum - A

* Somehow leaving the OF even worse than it was in 2012 and it was BAD in 2012 - F

* Lyon and a couple of flyers leave us on paper very similar to weak '12 bullpen- C

That averages out to a C.  You could argue that the 3 things shouldn't be given equal weight but if anything I think the OF should be weighted heaviest.  The FO deserves to be dinged for the state of the OF.  It was incredibly low hanging fruit to improve it and they somehow went backwards.  For no rational reason I'm actually kind of optimistic about the bullpen but on paper I don't think it is any better than it looked at the start of '12.  Hence the C grade.

my feelings exactly.  it's a mixed bag.  I have to go along with the praise the RA deal got but that's with accepting the idea that he had to be traded which I find a bit hard to accept.  It's still a difficult pill to swallow that the 2 main players most responsible for people having such high expectations for the Jays now are RA and Reyes, and my feelings are that the Mets either should still have both now and those high expectations should be here or both should have been traded.  We'd prob be a lot farther along the road to relevancy again had we gotten a few advanced prospects for Reyes instead of a 2nd rd draft pick...  

the OF is still an inexcusable mess and the pen is no more an assemblage of low risk/low reward arms than it was a year ago.  Until the FO shows the willingness to deal away from the young pitching depth to acquire some positional talent, it's going to take longer to reach relevancy than it otherwise could imo.

and I think the FO's public non-chalant stance regarding Bourn while at first was a manifestation of their apparent leverage but turned out to be poorly handled... showing that much lack of urgency so late in the winter as to say "we feel like we have a shot but I have no idea how it's going to turn out" comes off pretty lame and that's not to mention attempts at humor wrt the outfield, "what outfield?"...  suffice it to say that not everyone finds Sandy amusing...
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson

Last edited 2/13/2013 10:01 AM by DuffyDyer

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Posted: 2/13/2013 9:58 AM

RE: Grade the Off-Season 


I give Alderson some credit for the Dickey trade getting two highly regarded prospects and one of them a catcher.  However, he blew it by not re-signing Hairston.  It took so little to sign him.  Then when he decided Bourn would fit, he screwed that up too by not taking the steps to see if the Mets could protect their 1st round draft pick.

Somehow, some way, Alderson needed to acquire a pretty good young outfielder.  So I gave him a C.

Last edited 2/13/2013 9:59 AM by omnimetfan

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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:05 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 



DuffyDyer wrote:

and I think the FO's public non-chalant stance regarding Bourn while at first was a manifestation of their apparent leverage but turned out to be poorly handled... showing that much lack of urgency so late in the winter as to say "we feel like we have a shot but I have no idea how it's going to turn out" comes off pretty lame and that's not to mention attempts at humor wrt the outfield, "what outfield?"...  suffice it to say that not everyone finds Sandy amusing...
I concur.  He obviously had some of his better-colored eggs in the "trade for Upton" basket - which fell through.

Which is not to say he couldn't pull something off before the team breaks camp - but I'm not holding my breath on it.

"Use your head.....that's that lump 3 feet above your arse." - Jimmy Dugan

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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:09 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 




---------------------------------------------
--- MookieLJL wrote:

My totally unscientific math:

* Dickey trade/receiving top prospects and backfilling RAD with Marcum - A

* Somehow leaving the OF even worse than it was in 2012 and it was BAD in 2012 - F

* Lyon and a couple of flyers leave us on paper very similar to weak '12 bullpen- C

That averages out to a C.  You could argue that the 3 things shouldn't be given equal weight but if anything I think the OF should be weighted heaviest.  The FO deserves to be dinged for the state of the OF.  It was incredibly low hanging fruit to improve it and they somehow went backwards.  For no rational reason I'm actually kind of optimistic about the bullpen but on paper I don't think it is any better than it looked at the start of '12.  Hence the C grade.



---------------------------------------------


I look at the OF a little differently. I think we came into the off-season with 4 long-term holes (three OF and C...you could argue a middle infield spot too, but I don't think that was on the agenda). We filled one of those holes, which just happened to be catcher. In a vacuum, the OF is worse, but I look at it as tied to the catching position. If Travis d'Arnaud was a RF, we'd have an OF spot covered, but would we be any better off with him in RF and Thole/Shoppach-type at catcher? I think we would be worse off.

I like-love each of the moves that were made. Still hard to believe the RAD return, the Cowgill trade just made organizational sense, and I think the ML deals for Marcum and Lyon represent solid value. Sandy may have learned a lesson after Francisco last year. The bullpen very well could be better AND cheaper this season. I don't give too much credit for the MiL deals because every team makes them, though there is some diamond in the rough potential, most notably Atchinson.

I voted "B" based mostly on non-moves (though ironically I agree with the Mets on their two biggest non-moves: not going 4/48 + pick + allocation money for Bourn, and not sacrificing Wheeler or Harvey for Upton). Maybe it's not entirely fair because we can't do more than speculate on what is available, but I'm disappointed in a lack of creativity from our front office. Who knows, maybe Cowgill, Brown, and the like are undervalued and turn out to be hits in the long run, but I was hoping for more ML talent to be injected into the for franchise.


17 & 14 = Best Duo In NY Sports
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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:21 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 



acesfull86 wrote: Figured the time is right now that Bourn is no longer an option.

TRADES

Acquired C Travis d'Arnaud, C John Buck, RHP Noah Syndergaard, and OF Wuilmer Becerra for RHP R.A. Dickey, C Josh Thole, and C Mike Nickeas

Acquired OF Colin Cowgill for 3B Jefry Marte

MAJOR LEAGUE SIGNINGS

Signed 3B David Wright to 8/138 contract extension
Signed RHP Shaun Marcum to 1/4 contract
Signed RHP Brandon Lyon to 1/0.75 contract

NOTABLE MINOR LEAGUE SIGNINGS

C Landon Powell
C Anthony Recker
INF Omar Quintanilla
INF Brian Bixler
INF Brandon Hicks
OF Andrew Brown
OF Marlon Byrd
OF Corey Patterson
OF Jamie Hoffmann
RHP Scott Atchinson
RHP LaTroy Hawkins
RHP Greg Burke
LHP Pedro Feliciano
LHP Aaron Laffey
LHP Tim Byrdak

RELEASED/NOT RE-SIGNED

C Kelly Shoppach
INF Ronny Cedeno
OF Scott Hairston
OF Jason Bay
OF Andres Torres
RHP Mike Pelfrey
RHP Manny Acosta
RHP John Rauch
RHP Ramon Ramirez
RHP Chris Young

(don't think I missed anyone...)
it feels like you're missing an OFer from that list of additions.  oh wait...

actually yeah I did think there was someone else - Mike Wilson.  they've also been talking up this Scott Rice dude, another lefty RPer, fwiw...
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson

Last edited 2/13/2013 10:26 AM by DuffyDyer

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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:41 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 


C+/B-   


Mostly because the FO is playing this game about trying to be competitive in 2013.   They may be....but half-heartedly.   

I think the significant positives are the Dickey trade and the Wright signing.   I also think letting Pelphrey, Young, Ramirez, and Rauch walk are all net positives.   Showing some discipline in regards to Bourn and Upton could be interpreted as net positives.  


But......there are also significant gambles being taken regarding the 2013 OF.    It could play out to be the correct approach long-term.....but it has the potential to make the OF output epically ugly in the very short-term.
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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:45 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 



DuffyDyer wrote:
they've also been talking up this Scott Rice dude, another lefty RPer, fwiw...

Yeah, you've gotta dig for it - but:

Vs. Lefties:

10.5 K/9
.193 BAA
.552 OPSA

http://minorleaguecentral.com/...&split=2012

"Use your head.....that's that lump 3 feet above your arse." - Jimmy Dugan

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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:47 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 



acesfull86 wrote:


---------------------------------------------


I look at the OF a little differently. I think we came into the off-season with 4 long-term holes (three OF and C...you could argue a middle infield spot too, but I don't think that was on the agenda). We filled one of those holes, which just happened to be catcher. In a vacuum, the OF is worse, but I look at it as tied to the catching position. If Travis d'Arnaud was a RF, we'd have an OF spot covered, but would we be any better off with him in RF and Thole/Shoppach-type at catcher? I think we would be worse off.

I like-love each of the moves that were made. Still hard to believe the RAD return, the Cowgill trade just made organizational sense, and I think the ML deals for Marcum and Lyon represent solid value. Sandy may have learned a lesson after Francisco last year. The bullpen very well could be better AND cheaper this season. I don't give too much credit for the MiL deals because every team makes them, though there is some diamond in the rough potential, most notably Atchinson.

I voted "B" based mostly on non-moves (though ironically I agree with the Mets on their two biggest non-moves: not going 4/48 + pick + allocation money for Bourn, and not sacrificing Wheeler or Harvey for Upton). Maybe it's not entirely fair because we can't do more than speculate on what is available, but I'm disappointed in a lack of creativity from our front office. Who knows, maybe Cowgill, Brown, and the like are undervalued and turn out to be hits in the long run, but I was hoping for more ML talent to be injected into the for franchise.

I agree with pretty much all of that, and I also gave them a "B".

I like every single move they made and agree with not sacrificing Harvey or Wheeler. Not dealing Reyes was a monumental fail, but that was a year and a half ago (and may have been Wilpon-influenced). With 2013 obviously being a longshot year to contend, I agree with the decision to deal one of our major league starters for high ceiling prospects (and I'm happy it was Dickey instead of Niese).

The inability to upgrade the OF was clearly the biggest failure of the offseason (although I agree with not going 5/60 on Bourn and losing the pick). I was highly in favor of trying to package some of our minor league surplus for an OF prospect, but I've come to the conclusion management feels the value on some of those guys (Flores, Fulmer, etc) will be higher 4-8 months from now.
__________________________________



"We've got 5 guys better than this?"
.....Jason Bay watching Matt Harvey throw in March 2012.
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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:48 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 


I'l give it a B. 

No mistakes. 

Didnt get bowled over in the deal to re-sign Wright.

Great move in unloading Dickey for a monster return.

I would have loved to have seen them find a way for Justin Upton, which would have changed the franchise. We'll never know exactly what needed to be included, so I cant be too harsh but that was a lost oppurtunity.

Still not sure what we accomplished by releasing Bay.  Are we going to be paying him extra so that we can have more flexibility this yr, which ultimately wasnt used?

I would have liked to have seen some creativity with moving Murphy. 

This offseason is the best offseason for Alderson.
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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:56 AM

RE: Grade the Off-Season 


I gave them a C. Fillied a gaping hole with the Dickey trade, but I wouldn't call that particularly a "steal", because an affordable ace is a prime asset. Holes still abound in the OF and probably middle inf. I didn't expect them to fill all of them, but more than 1 would have been nice. Would have liked to see more creativity.

Eagles/Indiana/Mets/Villanova: it's a long story

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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:57 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 



oct271986 wrote: I'l give it a B. 

No mistakes. 

Didnt get bowled over in the deal to re-sign Wright.

Great move in unloading Dickey for a monster return.

I would have loved to have seen them find a way for Justin Upton, which would have changed the franchise. We'll never know exactly what needed to be included, so I cant be too harsh but that was a lost oppurtunity.

Still not sure what we accomplished by releasing Bay.  Are we going to be paying him extra so that we can have more flexibility this yr, which ultimately wasnt used?

I would have liked to have seen some creativity with moving Murphy. 

This offseason is the best offseason for Alderson.
not sure how you can say that with a straight face after an entire winter and Collin Cowgill and Andrew Brown end up being the OF upgrade...  I suppose how much of a mistake can you make if you're only making low risk moves, working in the 4th OFer or middle inning RPer market...?  from that perspective you will never make big mistakes...  you'll never be very good either.
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson
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Posted: 2/13/2013 11:01 AM

RE: Grade the Off-Season 


I gave a C, even though it deserves lower... that Dickey trade was simply that good in my view. so i graded on a curve (or is that a knuckler?)


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Posted: 2/13/2013 11:21 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 


2vsg8r9.jpg2vsg8r9.jpg
oct271986 wrote: I'l give it a B. 

No mistakes. 

Didnt get bowled over in the deal to re-sign Wright.

Great move in unloading Dickey for a monster return.

I would have loved to have seen them find a way for Justin Upton, which would have changed the franchise. We'll never know exactly what needed to be included, so I cant be too harsh but that was a lost oppurtunity.

Still not sure what we accomplished by releasing Bay.  Are we going to be paying him extra so that we can have more flexibility this yr, which ultimately wasnt used?

I would have liked to have seen some creativity with moving Murphy. 

This offseason is the best offseason for Alderson.
100% with you.  To me, especially on the Upton non-deal, only increases the need to go all in on a Stanton.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.
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Posted: 2/13/2013 11:26 AM

RE: Grade the Off-Season 


I'd say it's a C+, maybe B- for now, just evaluating their decision process.  They clearly feel like they are still a year or two away from investing in more risky moves to improve in the present.  Overall, they did nothing stupid, got a good return for Dickey.  I like the Marcum and Lyon signings.  If the OF mix or bullpen work out well, it makes the offseason look better, but that's a big if.
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Posted: 2/13/2013 11:43 AM

RE: Grade the Off-Season 


I don't see how it can be any higher than a C.  One deal (trading an ace SPer) does not mean we should all look the other way with a roster not only without a real ML OFer but a bench that looks like a mess...  Anthony Recker is the backup catcher at 29 and with 79 ML PAs... we might start to pine for Mike Nickeas.  Marlon Byrd might actually have a leg up on the RHed hitting part of the RF platoon at this point and that's fairly sad.  Brandon Hicks looks like the backup SS eek.  Justin Turner still the other backup IFer.  40 yo La Troy Hawkins prob has a good shot at making one of the pen jobs... 

In my view, we can all disagree on whether or not the Mets should have been more aggressive on Bourn or should have been able to obtain another starting CFer but should we all excuse some of the other dreck that appears to have a good shot at making the 25?  I believe it takes a full 25 man roster to be competitive and I think there wasn't enough effort made to improve even around the fringes... disbelief
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson

Last edited 2/13/2013 11:44 AM by DuffyDyer

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Posted: 2/13/2013 11:44 AM

Re: Grade the Off-Season 



VAMetsFan wrote: 2vsg8r9.jpg2vsg8r9.jpg
oct271986 wrote: I'l give it a B. 

No mistakes. 

Didnt get bowled over in the deal to re-sign Wright.

Great move in unloading Dickey for a monster return.

I would have loved to have seen them find a way for Justin Upton, which would have changed the franchise. We'll never know exactly what needed to be included, so I cant be too harsh but that was a lost oppurtunity.

Still not sure what we accomplished by releasing Bay.  Are we going to be paying him extra so that we can have more flexibility this yr, which ultimately wasnt used?

I would have liked to have seen some creativity with moving Murphy. 

This offseason is the best offseason for Alderson.
100% with you.  To me, especially on the Upton non-deal, only increases the need to go all in on a Stanton.

Stanton will cost Wheeler or Harvey (among others).....unless Noah S turns into the next Wheeler, I'm not doing that.
__________________________________



"We've got 5 guys better than this?"
.....Jason Bay watching Matt Harvey throw in March 2012.
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