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Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot?

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Posted: 12/5/2012 2:38 PM

Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


I just read a plea from Tommy Lasorda for those who vote to not allow any suspicions of Piazza using enhancing drugs to skew their thoughts on voting. So, I think there is merit for a discussion regarding Piazza and the HOF.

As we all know, there is absolutely no evidence that Piazza ever used steroids but will the thoughts and possible doubt enter I to the minds of any of those voting?

I think Piazza gets the votes he needs to get in on the first ballot...
Rich....
POST GOOD STUFF PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Posted: 12/5/2012 2:44 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


I believe he should get in first ballot, no question. 

However, I also believe that he did use performance enhancing drugs. With that said, I also think that Bonds and Clemens should be inducted into the HOF. So I suppose I am not the most interesting subject in this debate.

Last edited 12/5/2012 2:45 PM by BelieveInMetsMagic

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Posted: 12/5/2012 2:53 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


I'm not sure if he'll get in on the first ballot. Seems like some voters make a distinction between first ballot and subsequent ones.

But this year has a ton of potential hall of famers in it if we allow the steroid users in.
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Posted: 12/5/2012 2:59 PM

Re: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 



Kingman1 wrote: I just read a plea from Tommy Lasorda for those who vote to not allow any suspicions of Piazza using enhancing drugs to skew their thoughts on voting. So, I think there is merit for a discussion regarding Piazza and the HOF.

As we all know, there is absolutely no evidence that Piazza ever used steroids but will the thoughts and possible doubt enter I to the minds of any of those voting?

I think Piazza gets the votes he needs to get in on the first ballot...
Based upon what happened with Bagwell, I'm going to predict that he unfortunately does not get in on the first ballot.  Without getting into the debate of whether steroid users belong or not, which I certainly don't think was the intent of this thread, I suppose he perhaps fits into the category of not having any tangible evidence, but in your "heart of hearts" perhaps you have suspicions, unlike with Bonds and Clemens, where the evidence was very substantial.  I'm guessing that's why Bagwell didn't get in on the first try.

I do think Bagwell and Piazza both get in eventually.

Eagles/Indiana/Mets/Villanova: it's a long story

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Posted: 12/5/2012 3:06 PM

Re: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 



PhilaMet wrote:
Kingman1 wrote: I just read a plea from Tommy Lasorda for those who vote to not allow any suspicions of Piazza using enhancing drugs to skew their thoughts on voting. So, I think there is merit for a discussion regarding Piazza and the HOF.

As we all know, there is absolutely no evidence that Piazza ever used steroids but will the thoughts and possible doubt enter I to the minds of any of those voting?

I think Piazza gets the votes he needs to get in on the first ballot...
Based upon what happened with Bagwell, I'm going to predict that he unfortunately does not get in on the first ballot.  Without getting into the debate of whether steroid users belong or not, which I certainly don't think was the intent of this thread, I suppose he perhaps fits into the category of not having any tangible evidence, but in your "heart of hearts" perhaps you have suspicions, unlike with Bonds and Clemens, where the evidence was very substantial.  I'm guessing that's why Bagwell didn't get in on the first try.

I do think Bagwell and Piazza both get in eventually.
I brought up my feelings on Bonds and Clemens only to provide context and show my consistent approach. 

Lets say Bagwell and Piazza both get in... then 10 years down the road, evidence surfaces that both guys were PED users... what happens then? Do they get kicked out? 

I think that fear will hurt them in the voting. 

Only way that it isn't a fear is if guys like Bonds and Clemens are also voted in, regardless of their PED use.
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Posted: 12/5/2012 3:25 PM

Re: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 



BelieveInMetsMagic wrote:
I brought up my feelings on Bonds and Clemens only to provide context and show my consistent approach. 

Lets say Bagwell and Piazza both get in... then 10 years down the road, evidence surfaces that both guys were PED users... what happens then? Do they get kicked out? 

I think that fear will hurt them in the voting. 

Only way that it isn't a fear is if guys like Bonds and Clemens are also voted in, regardless of their PED use.
I hear you, and while I'm on the other side of the fence as you as far as whether steroid users should be in, you raise a good point in that there's a lot of questionable risk involved when voters choose to arbitrarily draw a line, and some may choose to be extreme about it (if there's any "evidence" then, no because we don't to admit someone inadvertently).  This could certainly hurt Piazza.

Also, what will be interesting about Bonds and Clemens coming up this year, is that for the first time, you will have players that were clearly on a HOF trajectory before it is believed they began to use steroids.  Or in other words,  as to question of would they be HOF material if they hadn't used, the answer almost certainly be yes.   It will be interesting to see how voters react to this question. This could conceivably hurt Piazza as well, because if you have any suspicions about him, I could envision voters arguing against him because of his seeming "Scarlet Letter" of being a throwaway draft pick whom nothing was expected of.  Or in other words, if you think Piazza used, it'd be very easy to aruge he's not HOF material if he hadn't.

Eagles/Indiana/Mets/Villanova: it's a long story

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Posted: 12/5/2012 3:58 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


I despise the argument that anyone was a Hall of Famer "before" they started using PEDs, for two reasons.

1) You don't know that. How can you possibly know that Bonds only started using PEDs when his numbers spiked, and not simply that he found a better product? How do we know that he didn't go from using anabolics to using HGH? We don't. Once he's caught, he loses all credibility.

But 2) let's say that IS what happened. Who cares? Why can't we assign a penalty to doing something egregiously wrong? If you're caught robbing a bank, do you just get to give the money back and say "no harm, no foul"? Of course not, you go to prison.

I fully acknowledge that we have a problem once a HoFer is later found out to have used. But you know what? They got away with it. That's just how things go. They won't get off scot-free, they will lose their legacy. Is it unfair? Well sure. Just like if you find out someone robbed a bank after they died, it's unfair that they never went to prison. But so be it. That's how it goes. I wouldn't have a problem with giving HoFers that used an asterisk if we find out after the fact either.
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Posted: 12/5/2012 4:04 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 



shhaggy wrote: I despise the argument that anyone was a Hall of Famer "before" they started using PEDs, for two reasons.

1) You don't know that. How can you possibly know that Bonds only started using PEDs when his numbers spiked, and not simply that he found a better product? How do we know that he didn't go from using anabolics to using HGH? We don't. Once he's caught, he loses all credibility.

But 2) let's say that IS what happened. Who cares? Why can't we assign a penalty to doing something egregiously wrong? If you're caught robbing a bank, do you just get to give the money back and say "no harm, no foul"? Of course not, you go to prison.

I fully acknowledge that we have a problem once a HoFer is later found out to have used. But you know what? They got away with it. That's just how things go. They won't get off scot-free, they will lose their legacy. Is it unfair? Well sure. Just like if you find out someone robbed a bank after they died, it's unfair that they never went to prison. But so be it. That's how it goes. I wouldn't have a problem with giving HoFers that used an asterisk if we find out after the fact either.
Well.. how do you define "got away with it"? 

I despise Roger Clemens. But the fact of the matter is, to the best of our knowledge, Roger Clemens never failed a drug test and was acquitted of all charges brought against him for perjury. The only "evidence" we have is the word of a few of his acquaintances. Soo..didn't he "get away with it"? 

Some in the sport have said they know Piazza used steroids. 

Really the only difference here is that Clemens was pursued on legal charges because he was once high profile enough to be questioned and he possibly perjured himself....and the people who know of his use have come out and claimed it...

Last edited 12/5/2012 4:08 PM by BelieveInMetsMagic

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Posted: 12/5/2012 4:15 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


i am praying he gets in. we are members of the HOF and will attend that HOF induction ceremony, whenever it is. i have been waiting to go to one for piazza...

it is funny to me this is even being debated - i thought he would be a first ballot HOFer. Seems to me if barry larkin is in the HOF, piazza should be.
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Posted: 12/5/2012 4:19 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


Hard to say with Piazza...these HOF voters do some pretty bizarre things.


17 & 14 = Best Duo In NY Sports
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Posted: 12/5/2012 4:26 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


I hope we don't get an undeserving player like Jack Morris in the Hall because the voters suspect Player X's head might have gotten bigger, and they can't vote for Player Y because they've decided to enforce their own silly rule that they won't vote a guy on the first ballot, so might as well vote Morris even though he's come up short the last 47 times because we have to have a ceremony!

Actually I shouldn't say I hope not...I really don't get too worked up over the Hall.


17 & 14 = Best Duo In NY Sports

Last edited 12/5/2012 4:28 PM by acesfull86

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Posted: 12/5/2012 4:31 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 



thill26 wrote: i am praying he gets in. we are members of the HOF and will attend that HOF induction ceremony, whenever it is. i have been waiting to go to one for piazza...

it is funny to me this is even being debated - i thought he would be a first ballot HOFer. Seems to me if barry larkin is in the HOF, piazza should be.
Well gold glove shortstops don't use steroids, silly....rolleyes

(except for Rey Ordoñez, of course tongue)
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Posted: 12/5/2012 5:56 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 



BelieveInMetsMagic wrote:
thill26 wrote: i am praying he gets in. we are members of the HOF and will attend that HOF induction ceremony, whenever it is. i have been waiting to go to one for piazza...

it is funny to me this is even being debated - i thought he would be a first ballot HOFer. Seems to me if barry larkin is in the HOF, piazza should be.
Well gold glove shortstops don't use steroids, silly....rolleyes

(except for Rey Ordoñez, of course tongue)
Everytime I see a batter swing and hit a catcher on the side of the head with his bat, or see a pitch in the dirt hit a catcher in the groin, or see a batter foul  a pitch off of some part of a catcher's body....I think  that catchers should be allowed to take steroids.

Piazza should get in, now.
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Posted: 12/5/2012 5:57 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


For the most part we don't....and the writers don't....know who used PEDs.

For the most part we don't.....and the writers don't.....know what effect it would have had on any one particular player.

The last thing we need is a bunch of uninformed writers making decisions on who may or may not have used PEDs.

The comparison to Bagwell has a small amount of merit however Bagwell played in Houston and was not arguably the greatest hitting player at his position while Piazza played in NY and LA and was arguably the greatest hitting player at his position. I think those are significant differences.

I would hope the writers aren't trying to "figure it out" as far as PEDs are concerned and we probably don't need Tommy Lasorda begging for them to ignore the issue, bringing what should be a nonexistent issue to light.

I'm hoping Bagwell and Mike get in this time and also hope Morris doesn't as I don't think he's deserving.
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Posted: 12/5/2012 7:57 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


When it comes to Mike, I'm seriously hoping first ballot. 

On the more general issue, I admit I fall on the side of not being comfortable with users getting in. I fully recognize and appreciate the arguments against that sentiment, and I think logically I agree with some of them, but I admit I let my heart/gut dictate a bit more than perhaps I should on this one.

That being said, I despise that the baseball writers, the ones who were really in positions to say something about the rampant drug use going on for all those years, suddenly get to act like great and powerful moral arbiters.

John Adams: At a stage in life when other men prosper, I'm reduced to living in Philadelphia!
Mike "Doc" Emrick: THEY SCORE! HENRIQUE!! IT'S OVER!!!

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Posted: 12/5/2012 11:40 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


I get the issue with PED's...but in my lifetime I've never watched a player who seemed so dangerous.  He didn't often hit the towering homeruns...he hit the ones that looked like they hurt the most.  Seeing a ball leave the park only going 20 feet in the air is something that very few players can do.  On that note...SA better call the Marlins to see what it would take to get Stanton.
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Posted: 12/11/2012 6:18 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


Thinking comes from not knowing. I won't punish Piazza unless it came out he did. Regardless he is the best hr hitting catcher of all time. That deserves first ballot IMO

The truth of the matter is that you always know the right thing to do. The hard part is doing it.

LETS GO METS!

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Posted: 12/11/2012 9:37 PM

Re: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

RIP WIC 2005-2008

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Posted: 12/11/2012 10:06 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 



BelieveInMetsMagic wrote:
shhaggy wrote: I despise the argument that anyone was a Hall of Famer "before" they started using PEDs, for two reasons.

1) You don't know that. How can you possibly know that Bonds only started using PEDs when his numbers spiked, and not simply that he found a better product? How do we know that he didn't go from using anabolics to using HGH? We don't. Once he's caught, he loses all credibility.

But 2) let's say that IS what happened. Who cares? Why can't we assign a penalty to doing something egregiously wrong? If you're caught robbing a bank, do you just get to give the money back and say "no harm, no foul"? Of course not, you go to prison.

I fully acknowledge that we have a problem once a HoFer is later found out to have used. But you know what? They got away with it. That's just how things go. They won't get off scot-free, they will lose their legacy. Is it unfair? Well sure. Just like if you find out someone robbed a bank after they died, it's unfair that they never went to prison. But so be it. That's how it goes. I wouldn't have a problem with giving HoFers that used an asterisk if we find out after the fact either.
Well.. how do you define "got away with it"? 

I despise Roger Clemens. But the fact of the matter is, to the best of our knowledge, Roger Clemens never failed a drug test and was acquitted of all charges brought against him for perjury. The only "evidence" we have is the word of a few of his acquaintances. Soo..didn't he "get away with it"? 

Some in the sport have said they know Piazza used steroids. 

Really the only difference here is that Clemens was pursued on legal charges because he was once high profile enough to be questioned and he possibly perjured himself....and the people who know of his use have come out and claimed it...
You don't have to prove something in a court of law in order for it to be able to govern how you feel. Clemens is on the record buying drugs from a known steroids dealer, he merely claims it was B12. He's even passed the buck onto his wife. I'm not a fan of "hearsay" evidence, but it's quite a bit more that we've got against Clemens. That said, I would agree that Clemens would be a questionable case, since some may choose to take the strict stance about what "prove" means. 

To me, Piazza is much more like Jeff Bagwell than Roger Clemens.
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Posted: 12/11/2012 11:04 PM

RE: Mike Piazza, will he get into the HOF on the first Ballot? 


I hope he gets in on the first ballot, of course.

But, we are Met fans.

So, you realize what will happen.

He'll get in on an overwhelmingly high percentage of the vote. He will get all the votes that Clemens and Bonds don't.

Then the HOF will announce that he'll have a Dodger hat on his plaque.
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