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Wilpon Flat Broke?

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Posted: 11/11/2012 8:03 PM

Wilpon Flat Broke? 


http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/11/repor t-the-mets-truly-are-flat-broke-this-time/comment- page-1/#comment-396929

Michael Salfino is reporting that the Wilpons are flat broke.  He says the Bay move was out of desperation and there's no way we can re-sign either Wright or Dickey.

Yet Selig isn't forcing him to sell.
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Posted: 11/11/2012 8:36 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 


Three reasons why I'm skeptical of this report:

1. The Mets recently announced they would once again field a GCL team.  The elimination of the team was dubbed a cost-cutting measure when it happened.  Wouldn't bringing the team back signal a desire/willingness to do what's best by the organization's prospects?

2. In July, the Mets gave Ahmed Rosario the largest signing bonus of any international player this summer.  Again, if finances were so tight, why shell out big bucks for anyone?

3. If the team were truly broke, why even mess around with a $100M payroll?  You're already hemorrhaging cash at the gate.  Paying $100M to win 72 games makes absolutely no sense.  I know everyone loves to run with the narrative that the Wilpons are liars trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fan base, but if they were truly, truly broke and intent on maintaining control of the team, the team's payroll would be nowhere near $100M.  Not last season, not this upcoming season.  




Who knows?  Maybe the Wilpons are broke and will have to sell.  I don't wish for anyone to be broke, but I'd definitely love to see a change in ownership much sooner than later.  But we've heard rumors of the Wilpons "inevitable" demise for what seems like a couple years now.  I'm sure they have some (possibly major) liquidity issues, but I'll believe a sale is forthcoming when all signs point to it.  Right now, that isn't the case.

I think we'll get a pretty good indication of where the Wilpons stand financially when Wright and Dickey's contract statuses are resolved.  If both are dealt and payroll is once again slashed, that'll be a pretty clear indication the Mets are broke.  But if even one is signed, I think that'll be a pretty clear sign that the Wilpons are here to stay -- painful as that thought may be.

Last edited 11/11/2012 8:47 PM by DocK16

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Posted: 11/11/2012 8:45 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



DocK16 wrote: Three reasons why I'm skeptical of this report:

1. The Mets recently announced they would once again field a GCL team.  The elimination of the team was dubbed a cost-cutting measure when it happened.  Wouldn't bringing the team back signal a desire/willingness to do what's best by the organization's prospects?

2. In July, the Mets gave Ahmed Rosario the largest signing bonus of any international player this summer.  Again, if finances were so tight, why shell out big bucks for anyone?

3. If the team were truly broke, why even mess around with a $100M payroll?  You're already hemorrhaging cash at the gate.  Paying $100M to win 72 games makes absolutely no sense.  I know everyone loves to run with the narrative that the Wilpons are liars trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fan base, but if they were truly, truly broke and the Wilpons were truly intent on maintaining control of the team, the team's payroll would be nowhere near $100M.  Not last season, not this upcoming season.




Who knows?  Maybe the Wilpons are broke and will have to sell.  I don't wish for anyone to be broke, but I'd definitely love to see a change in ownership much sooner than later.  But we've heard rumors of the Wilpons "inevitable" demise for what seems like a couple years now.  I'm sure they have some (possibly major) liquidity issues, but I'll believe a sale is forthcoming when all signs point to it.  Right now, that isn't the case.

Thanks, Doc. When I first saw that story I actually got a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. Those points make sense, especially 1 & 2.
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Posted: 11/11/2012 8:51 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



DocK16 wrote: Couple reasons why I'm skeptical of this report:

1. The Mets recently announced they would once again field a GCL team.  The elimination of the team was dubbed a cost-cutting measure when it happened.  Wouldn't bringing the team back signal a desire/willingness to do what's best by the organization's prospects?

2. In July, the Mets gave Ahmed Rosario the largest signing bonus of any international player this summer.  Again, if finances were so tight, why shell out big bucks for anyone?

Who knows.  Maybe the Wilpons are broke and will have to sell.  I don't wish for anyone to be broke, but I'd definitely love to see a change in ownership much sooner than later.  But we've heard rumors of the Wilpons "inevitable" demise for what seems like a couple years now.  I'm sure they have some (possibly major) liquidity issues, but I'll believe a sale is forthcoming when all signs point to it.  Right now, that isn't the case.

Kinda makes sense though.  The Mets last 2-3 seasons look as if they were part of a long term strategic bankrupcy. 

-They bring in a famously "frugal" builder of teams in terms of value.  The deputies come in to establish a more sabre minded approach and improved scouting.  These capabilities improve the long term value of the club probably by 100 million dollars  in terms of winning and the ability to control labor costs. 

-After this tears budget cuts, the team will most likely show an operating profit.  The Mets are now a business with much improved long term labor costs and our showing positive revenue.  The only issue long term with competing on a level of the Yankees, Red Sox in the Northeast is the Wilpons debt.  A sale of the team or bankrupcy(and later sale of the team) Either way, the club is much more valuable asset due to structural changes in the organization.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.
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Posted: 11/11/2012 9:25 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



DocK16 wrote: Three reasons why I'm skeptical of this report:

1. The Mets recently announced they would once again field a GCL team.  The elimination of the team was dubbed a cost-cutting measure when it happened.  Wouldn't bringing the team back signal a desire/willingness to do what's best by the organization's prospects?

2. In July, the Mets gave Ahmed Rosario the largest signing bonus of any international player this summer.  Again, if finances were so tight, why shell out big bucks for anyone?

3. If the team were truly broke, why even mess around with a $100M payroll?  You're already hemorrhaging cash at the gate.  Paying $100M to win 72 games makes absolutely no sense.  I know everyone loves to run with the narrative that the Wilpons are liars trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fan base, but if they were truly, truly broke and intent on maintaining control of the team, the team's payroll would be nowhere near $100M.  Not last season, not this upcoming season.  




Who knows?  Maybe the Wilpons are broke and will have to sell.  I don't wish for anyone to be broke, but I'd definitely love to see a change in ownership much sooner than later.  But we've heard rumors of the Wilpons "inevitable" demise for what seems like a couple years now.  I'm sure they have some (possibly major) liquidity issues, but I'll believe a sale is forthcoming when all signs point to it.  Right now, that isn't the case.

I think we'll get a pretty good indication of where the Wilpons stand financially when Wright and Dickey's contract statuses are resolved.  If both are dealt and payroll is once again slashed, that'll be a pretty clear indication the Mets are broke.  But if even one is signed, I think that'll be a pretty clear sign that the Wilpons are here to stay -- painful as that thought may be.
Fair points, but Rosario cost 1.75 mil and a GCL team plays 60 games and the players are already signed, so how much additonal expense do they incur?  Assuredly, it isnt free but big picture, I dont think a GCL team costs very much.

When you examine a business that is shutting down or cant operate properly, it doesnt always happen in a clean linear fashion.  Sometimes, even when you are broke, you have to have some items, even if you probably shouldnt be getting them.  At times in my life, I have worked for companies that had maxed out their budget, even while going thru a bankruptcy, but found some money to forge ahead because operating without trying to maximize profits just sets you further back.

Perhaps, Alderson has made it clear that in order for him to stay he needs some ability to field a proper franchise.   So, he submits a list of items he needs like 8-10 mil for a BP and some renovations to Citifield and a budget for amateur players etc....

Who knows...There are a lot of details we arent privy to, but since the day Madoff was locked up, ownership hasnt been pursuing a championship.
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Posted: 11/11/2012 9:45 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



oct271986 wrote:
DocK16 wrote: Three reasons why I'm skeptical of this report:

1. The Mets recently announced they would once again field a GCL team.  The elimination of the team was dubbed a cost-cutting measure when it happened.  Wouldn't bringing the team back signal a desire/willingness to do what's best by the organization's prospects?

2. In July, the Mets gave Ahmed Rosario the largest signing bonus of any international player this summer.  Again, if finances were so tight, why shell out big bucks for anyone?

3. If the team were truly broke, why even mess around with a $100M payroll?  You're already hemorrhaging cash at the gate.  Paying $100M to win 72 games makes absolutely no sense.  I know everyone loves to run with the narrative that the Wilpons are liars trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fan base, but if they were truly, truly broke and intent on maintaining control of the team, the team's payroll would be nowhere near $100M.  Not last season, not this upcoming season.  




Who knows?  Maybe the Wilpons are broke and will have to sell.  I don't wish for anyone to be broke, but I'd definitely love to see a change in ownership much sooner than later.  But we've heard rumors of the Wilpons "inevitable" demise for what seems like a couple years now.  I'm sure they have some (possibly major) liquidity issues, but I'll believe a sale is forthcoming when all signs point to it.  Right now, that isn't the case.

I think we'll get a pretty good indication of where the Wilpons stand financially when Wright and Dickey's contract statuses are resolved.  If both are dealt and payroll is once again slashed, that'll be a pretty clear indication the Mets are broke.  But if even one is signed, I think that'll be a pretty clear sign that the Wilpons are here to stay -- painful as that thought may be.
Fair points, but Rosario cost 1.75 mil and a GCL team plays 60 games and the players are already signed, so how much additonal expense do they incur?  Assuredly, it isnt free but big picture, I dont think a GCL team costs very much.

When you examine a business that is shutting down or cant operate properly, it doesnt always happen in a clean linear fashion.  Sometimes, even when you are broke, you have to have some items, even if you probably shouldnt be getting them.  At times in my life, I have worked for companies that had maxed out their budget, even while going thru a bankruptcy, but found some money to forge ahead because operating without trying to maximize profits just sets you further back.

Perhaps, Alderson has made it clear that in order for him to stay he needs some ability to field a proper franchise.   So, he submits a list of items he needs like 8-10 mil for a BP and some renovations to Citifield and a budget for amateur players etc....

Who knows...There are a lot of details we arent privy to, but since the day Madoff was locked up, ownership hasnt been pursuing a championship.
I thought it was awfully cheap during a rebuilding to shut down a minor league team at all.  Really, If that team is the difference between having an additional average major league starter every 3-4 years. its worth it  Also. you can use your minor league clubs to boost your national profile.  You do own a cable channel right.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.
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Posted: 11/11/2012 9:54 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 


The Wilpons would like you to think money is tight so they can get away with half-trying with the Mets. The truth is their SNY share and real estate holdings are worth a boatload. If they were really broke they could sell off a bunch more of the 20M shares and still keep control of the team. It's all a ruse and we're all suckers.
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Posted: 11/11/2012 10:06 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



MookieLJL wrote: The Wilpons would like you to think money is tight so they can get away with half-trying with the Mets. The truth is their SNY share and real estate holdings are worth a boatload. If they were really broke they could sell off a bunch more of the 20M shares and still keep control of the team. It's all a ruse and we're all suckers.
I think that is in the Wilpons best interest to sell the Mets for as much as possible net of debt.  I think their real estate losses arre huge,  I still think they are solvent.  I think they have a major cash flow issue though.  Real esate that is not sold or rented out  doesn' t produce cash flow.  The mets may or may not have a positive cash flow.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.
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Posted: 11/11/2012 10:18 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 


The Mets are a billion plus dollar asset. The Wilpons should solve their alleged financial issues and do us all a favor and sell the team asap. A major league team is a very expensive toy. If you're really choking financially and yet holding onto such a toy rather than selling you are an idiot.
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Posted: 11/11/2012 10:33 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



danfran wrote:
DocK16 wrote: Three reasons why I'm skeptical of this report:

1. The Mets recently announced they would once again field a GCL team.  The elimination of the team was dubbed a cost-cutting measure when it happened.  Wouldn't bringing the team back signal a desire/willingness to do what's best by the organization's prospects?

2. In July, the Mets gave Ahmed Rosario the largest signing bonus of any international player this summer.  Again, if finances were so tight, why shell out big bucks for anyone?

3. If the team were truly broke, why even mess around with a $100M payroll?  You're already hemorrhaging cash at the gate.  Paying $100M to win 72 games makes absolutely no sense.  I know everyone loves to run with the narrative that the Wilpons are liars trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fan base, but if they were truly, truly broke and the Wilpons were truly intent on maintaining control of the team, the team's payroll would be nowhere near $100M.  Not last season, not this upcoming season.




Who knows?  Maybe the Wilpons are broke and will have to sell.  I don't wish for anyone to be broke, but I'd definitely love to see a change in ownership much sooner than later.  But we've heard rumors of the Wilpons "inevitable" demise for what seems like a couple years now.  I'm sure they have some (possibly major) liquidity issues, but I'll believe a sale is forthcoming when all signs point to it.  Right now, that isn't the case.

Thanks, Doc. When I first saw that story I actually got a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. Those points make sense, especially 1 & 2.
how much could it possibly cost to play in the GCL?  especially when the org will already have the players hanging around the complex?

as far as the intl signings, perhaps things have changed since July.  Right now that seems like eons ago.

and how much less that $95M could the payroll possibly be when $65M is going to just three players?

I don't pretend to have insight into the Wilpons finances and have always fallen on the side which says they have to be making more than people think considering the cash flow from SNY, new stadium revenues and MLB revenue streams, but it could be that the Pons RE business may be badly suffering and that hardship is limiting what they can do with the team... iow, what's being said now is not at all unfeasible.
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson
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Posted: 11/11/2012 10:46 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



DuffyDyer wrote:
danfran wrote:
DocK16 wrote: Three reasons why I'm skeptical of this report:

1. The Mets recently announced they would once again field a GCL team.  The elimination of the team was dubbed a cost-cutting measure when it happened.  Wouldn't bringing the team back signal a desire/willingness to do what's best by the organization's prospects?

2. In July, the Mets gave Ahmed Rosario the largest signing bonus of any international player this summer.  Again, if finances were so tight, why shell out big bucks for anyone?

3. If the team were truly broke, why even mess around with a $100M payroll?  You're already hemorrhaging cash at the gate.  Paying $100M to win 72 games makes absolutely no sense.  I know everyone loves to run with the narrative that the Wilpons are liars trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fan base, but if they were truly, truly broke and the Wilpons were truly intent on maintaining control of the team, the team's payroll would be nowhere near $100M.  Not last season, not this upcoming season.




Who knows?  Maybe the Wilpons are broke and will have to sell.  I don't wish for anyone to be broke, but I'd definitely love to see a change in ownership much sooner than later.  But we've heard rumors of the Wilpons "inevitable" demise for what seems like a couple years now.  I'm sure they have some (possibly major) liquidity issues, but I'll believe a sale is forthcoming when all signs point to it.  Right now, that isn't the case.

Thanks, Doc. When I first saw that story I actually got a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. Those points make sense, especially 1 & 2.
how much could it possibly cost to play in the GCL?  especially when the org will already have the players hanging around the complex?

as far as the intl signings, perhaps things have changed since July.  Right now that seems like eons ago.

and how much less that $95M could the payroll possibly be when $65M is going to just three players?

I don't pretend to have insight into the Wilpons finances and have always fallen on the side which says they have to be making more than people think considering the cash flow from SNY, new stadium revenues and MLB revenue streams, but it could be that the Pons RE business may be badly suffering and that hardship is limiting what they can do with the team... iow, what's being said now is not at all unfeasible.

If you subtract Wright and Dickey's contracts, about $20M.  The team didn't have to spend $15M or so last off-season either on FF, Rauch, Pelfrey, etc.

I dunno, I'm not saying it's unfeasible to think the Wilpons are in financial trouble, I just think signs point to status quo (or what has become the status quo) and not impending doom.  That could change quickly, though.

Last edited 11/11/2012 10:48 PM by DocK16

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Posted: 11/11/2012 10:51 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



MookieLJL wrote: The Mets are a billion plus dollar asset. The Wilpons should solve their alleged financial issues and do us all a favor and sell the team asap. A major league team is a very expensive toy. If you're really choking financially and yet holding onto such a toy rather than selling you are an idiot.
 +1


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Posted: 11/11/2012 10:56 PM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



DocK16 wrote:
DuffyDyer wrote:
danfran wrote:
DocK16 wrote: Three reasons why I'm skeptical of this report:

1. The Mets recently announced they would once again field a GCL team.  The elimination of the team was dubbed a cost-cutting measure when it happened.  Wouldn't bringing the team back signal a desire/willingness to do what's best by the organization's prospects?

2. In July, the Mets gave Ahmed Rosario the largest signing bonus of any international player this summer.  Again, if finances were so tight, why shell out big bucks for anyone?

3. If the team were truly broke, why even mess around with a $100M payroll?  You're already hemorrhaging cash at the gate.  Paying $100M to win 72 games makes absolutely no sense.  I know everyone loves to run with the narrative that the Wilpons are liars trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fan base, but if they were truly, truly broke and the Wilpons were truly intent on maintaining control of the team, the team's payroll would be nowhere near $100M.  Not last season, not this upcoming season.




Who knows?  Maybe the Wilpons are broke and will have to sell.  I don't wish for anyone to be broke, but I'd definitely love to see a change in ownership much sooner than later.  But we've heard rumors of the Wilpons "inevitable" demise for what seems like a couple years now.  I'm sure they have some (possibly major) liquidity issues, but I'll believe a sale is forthcoming when all signs point to it.  Right now, that isn't the case.

Thanks, Doc. When I first saw that story I actually got a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. Those points make sense, especially 1 & 2.
how much could it possibly cost to play in the GCL?  especially when the org will already have the players hanging around the complex?

as far as the intl signings, perhaps things have changed since July.  Right now that seems like eons ago.

and how much less that $95M could the payroll possibly be when $65M is going to just three players?

I don't pretend to have insight into the Wilpons finances and have always fallen on the side which says they have to be making more than people think considering the cash flow from SNY, new stadium revenues and MLB revenue streams, but it could be that the Pons RE business may be badly suffering and that hardship is limiting what they can do with the team... iow, what's being said now is not at all unfeasible.

If you subtract Wright and Dickey's contracts, about $20M.  The team didn't have to spend $15M or so last off-season either on FF, Rauch, Pelfrey, etc.

I dunno, I'm not saying it's unfeasible to think the Wilpons are in financial trouble, I just think signs point to status quo (or what has become the status quo) and not impending doom.  That could change quickly, though.
If your 2 biggest classes of assets are essentially buy and hold type assets and you make your money in the equity game (characteristics of both real estate and sports teams), you will be especially sensitive to drops in cash flow. In fact, if these were your primary assets, it would make a lot of sense to keep a lot of cash on hand.  If they don't, they could be in trouble.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.
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Posted: 11/12/2012 1:05 AM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 


Well, isn't this common knowledge almost ?
Sure, the Mets are a major asset, probably worth a billion $ or more.
However, the Wilpons have taken on major loans with both significant chunks of the Mets & SNY apparently serving as securities and being involved in this.
I have no idea about their real estate portfolio but would assume it's not performing too well either at this point.
And with the Ponzi scheme no longer leading to big profits and almost their entire - fake - fortune gone, they are unable to sustain operating losses from their expensive hobby.
Thus an annual payroll in the 90 to 100 million $ range.

The question is whether the Wilpons can survive financially with the Mets & SNY being cost neutral where they apparently were in 2012 combined.
Or whether they'd need profit to cover losses & expenses from their other enteties.

It still doesn't prevent them from extending Wright & Dickey as even by resigning both for a combined 30 to 35 million per year for 2014 and beyond only puts the projected payroll at 70 to 75 million $ max. And odds you make more profits and generate more cash are much higher if you field a winning team instead of tanking and going into full fledged rebuilding mode.
So odds are, the 2014 payroll is in the 90+ million $ range too - with plenty of $$ to keep Dickey & DW regardless of where the Wilpons are financially...
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Posted: 11/12/2012 6:44 AM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 


Well, I guess we will know by the start of the regular season. If they don't extend either Dickey or Wright, and "lame duck" both, that will be a bad sign.
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Posted: 11/12/2012 7:14 AM

RE: Wilpon Flat Broke? 


Those tweets just confirm what most of us here have suspected for a long time: that the Wilponzoni financial house of cards was always built on SNY revenues and Madoff cash flow, leveraged to the hilt. Each move we've seen in the last few years, be it the flirtation with Einhorn (who I am convinced would would have been a bad owner also), the $20 million vanity shares sale, the MLB loans, or the repeating pattern of failing to add meaningful players despite a decline in competitiveness and attendance, all of these things point to the same trail of evidence as Fred falls back from Plan A to B to C and so on as he desperately tries to hang on to his toy as reality closes in. This will end badly, and the longer it drags out, the worse it will go down.
_______________________________________________________________________

"The Mets have shown me more ways to lose than I even knew existed."
-Casey Stengel
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Posted: 11/12/2012 7:20 AM

RE: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



vinluvr wrote: Those tweets just confirm what most of us here have suspected for a long time: that the Wilponzoni financial house of cards was always built on SNY revenues and Madoff cash flow, leveraged to the hilt. Each move we've seen in the last few years, be it the flirtation with Einhorn (who I am convinced would would have been a bad owner also), the $20 million vanity shares sale, the MLB loans, or the repeating pattern of failing to add meaningful players despite a decline in competitiveness and attendance, all of these things point to the same trail of evidence as Fred falls back from Plan A to B to C and so on as he desperately tries to hang on to his toy as reality closes in. This will end badly, and the longer it drags out, the worse it will go down.
It's bad enough they don't add meaningful players, as you say, but they don't even make an attempt. Regardless of what they say, they didn't even make an offer to Reyes. Last year during the FA period I remember hearing every couple of days this guy signed with this team, that guy signed with that team, the Mets were never even linked to anyone.
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Posted: 11/12/2012 7:37 AM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 


Let's see. Mid-November. Free agent market has not taken off. Got no story. Ok let's recycle same old crap and insight some people. Done.

How many times do we have to go back to the Sam unimaginitive story. Wilpons are here. Deal with it. You, me, or anyone else will nor can not change that simple truth.
“Every day is a new opportunity.  You can build on yesterday's success or put its failures behind and start over again.” - Bob Feller
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Posted: 11/12/2012 7:52 AM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 



nevets72 wrote: Let's see. Mid-November. Free agent market has not taken off. Got no story. Ok let's recycle same old crap and insight some people. Done.

How many times do we have to go back to the Sam unimaginitive story. Wilpons are here. Deal with it. You, me, or anyone else will nor can not change that simple truth.
We ARE dealing with it, by discussing it. This is a discussion forum, last I checked. In fact, you're not suggesting we deal with it at all, are you? Your prescription sounds more like "ignore it and don't talk about it". No thanks. You're welcome to keep your head buried deep in the sand, but don't expect others to do the same.
_______________________________________________________________________

"The Mets have shown me more ways to lose than I even knew existed."
-Casey Stengel
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Posted: 11/12/2012 8:18 AM

Re: Wilpon Flat Broke? 


Hopefully the details of the Bay deferment will break.  If they are indeed realizing immediate-term savings there, but not putting it into the 2013 payroll, that would be some pretty damning evidence.

Eagles/Indiana/Mets/Villanova: it's a long story

Last edited 11/12/2012 8:18 AM by PhilaMet

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