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Appeal Results
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Posted: 11/06/2012 3:42 PM
Appeal Results
Big school forum had the results up... Tarantula wrote:Football appeals denied/approved for each school: Highlighted the shocking ones IMO: Alchesay (from D-IV to D-V) approved Alhambra (from D-I to D-III) denied but approved for D-II Amphitheater (D-III to D-IV) approved Arcadia (D-II to D-III) denied Barry Goldwater (D-II to D-III) approved Bradshaw Mountain (D-II to D-III) approved Buckeye (D-III to D-IV) denied Camp Verde (D-IV to D-V) approved Carl Hayden (D-I to D-III) denied but approved for D-II Central (D-I to D-III) denied but approved for D-II Cesar Chavez (D-I to D-II) denied Combs (D-III to D-IV) approved Copper Canyon (D-II to D-III) denied Coronado (D-III to D-IV) approved Cortez (D-III to D-IV) approved Empire (D-III to D-IV) denied Glendale (D-III to D-IV) approved Holbrook (D-IV to D-V) approved Horizon (D-I to D-II) denied Imagine Prep Coolidge (D-IV to D-V) approved Independence (D-II to D-III) approved Lee Williams (D-IV to D-V) approved Many Farms (D-IV to D-V) approved McClintock (D-II to D-III) approved Mingus (D-III to D-IV) denied Mohave (D-III to D-IV) denied Nogales (D-II to D-III) denied North Pointe (D-IV to D-V) denied Phoenix Christian (D-V to D-III) approved Poston Butte (D-II to D-III) denied Pueblo (D-II to D-III) approved Sabino (D-IV to D-III) approved San Tan Foothills (D-IV to D-V) denied Sedona Red Rock (D-IV to D-V) denied Sierra Linda (D-III to D-IV) denied South Mountain (D-II to D-III) approved St. Mary’s (D-IV to D-II) approved Sunnyslope (D-II to D-III) denied Tanque Verde (D-IV to D-V) approved Trevor Browne (D-I to D-II) approved Tuba City (D-IV to D-V) denied Vista Grande (D-II to D-III) denied Washington (D-II to D-III) approved Westwood (D-I to D-II) approved How does San Tan Foothills, Sedona Red Rock, and North Pointe get denied into D5 when Alchesay, Tanque Verde, Imagine Prep get approved with higher enrollment? Shoot, Holbrook and Lee Williams get approved and they weren't even close enrollment wise (1010 and 744)???? |
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Posted: 11/06/2012 3:55 PM
Re: Appeal Results
Your paragraph at the end says it all. There is no doubt that most of these schools requesting a change are struggling schools to say the least with regard to being top tier at the level they are at. But I would love to know how they reached the decisions they reached. Personally, I would never allow a petition down in any sport at any level. I would however encourage those schools that are dominant to move up.
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Posted: 11/06/2012 7:15 PM
Re: Appeal Results
The reason Lee Williams was probably approved is because for the first year of the two year block, their teams will have only sophomores and in the second year they will have juniors and sophomores. After that they will probably be D-III.
"The reason I didn't like to throw on First and Ten was because I hated Second and Ten" - The legendary Ray Smith
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- HSFB6630
- College Star
- 170 posts this site
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Posted: 11/07/2012 11:16 AM
Re: Appeal Results
Once again the AIA shows how lost in reality they are. North Pointe dropped their varsity program when they were placed into division 4 last time around, and were scheduled to play Cactus, Thunderbird and other larger schools. This program could not compete with the division 5 schools then so by all means the AIA should move them up now. Stupid decision. Red Rock squeezed into the playoffs in d5 with a pretty weak schedule. Now they are being forced up. Stupid decision. I have no idea what the thought process is in the AIA offices. It appears that there is no thought process actually. Enrollment does not seem to matter. Competitive ability does not seem to matter. Sounds like they just threw darts at a board with "approve/deny" on it. And Holbrook being allowed to drop down with over 1000 kids in school????? Phoenix Christians decision to jump to division 3 is football suicide. They were an slightly above average d5 school the past couple of years and their jv team was horrible. Where is the logic in that move? They are going to be crushed the next few years unless they "attract" new kids because of being in the larger division. Don't see that happening.
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Posted: 11/07/2012 11:20 AM
Re: Appeal Results
North Pointe Prep had a hard time even being somewhat competitive in the old 2A (basically new Div V).... The fact that they were dropped into Div IV 2 years ago was what prompted them to drop the football program before. So unless the enrollment of the type of athletes has changed at NPP over the last two years, I don't see how the AIA expects them to survive the season with healthy players let alone compete on a weekly basis.
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Posted: 11/07/2012 11:34 AM
RE: Appeal Results
When North Pointe cancelled the football program it became sort of a public statement of the ridiculousness of the AIA's system. I seem to remember the letter the NPP principal sent out was quite negative toward the AIA. One has to wonder if this is payback?
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- HSFB6630
- College Star
- 170 posts this site
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Posted: 11/07/2012 11:46 AM
Re: Appeal Results
I am sure that the AIA is not above "payback" towards anyone who insults their massive egos.
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- bbfan32
- Pro Bowler
- 654 posts this site
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Posted: 11/07/2012 3:22 PM
Re: Appeal Results
It looks like 24 teams were allowed to petition down a level in football. I've never been a proponent of teams being able to petition down - up is fine, but not down. I know Holbrook is no powerhouse in football, but you will have a school with 1000+ students going against schools with just over 200 students - not good in my opinion.
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Posted: 11/07/2012 4:19 PM
Re: Appeal Results
North point was a clear cut example of the pansy skirt wearing crowd much of male society has become. This fear of injury factor has always been blown way out of proportion at the high school level. This is much more about people who just cannot deal with getting their tails whooped in an athletic competition. Got a lot of respect for those programs that year after year after year, fielded a team, laced them up, and faced some of the best small ball schools in the state without ever canceling a season. Alchesay comes to mind here.
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Posted: 11/07/2012 6:24 PM
Re: Appeal Results
TheRealCuervo wrote:The reason Lee Williams was probably approved is because for the first year of the two year block, their teams will have only sophomores and in the second year they will have juniors and sophomores. After that they will probably be D-III. wow 1010 enrollment and that's just in a freshman and sophomore class together? Going to be pretty big school out there in Kingman when its fully built out. |
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- HSFB6630
- College Star
- 170 posts this site
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Posted: 11/08/2012 9:08 AM
Re: Appeal Results
Sprinkler I really respect your thoughts and opinions on high school football as you are very knowledgeable on the sport and schools, but I disagree with you on North Pointe. This is a school with a weak football history. They have never been able to field a competitive team even when they were in the 2a. Their enrollment pushed them up a level 2 years ago. With the AIA scheduling games to limit travel NPP was scheduled to play 2 defending state champions from larger divisions and several other schools with strong football traditions like Cactus. This would have been a slaughter on almost every Friday. The difference in size, numbers and quality of players would have enormous. The injury issue in games like this is real, and games like this benefit nobody. I agree that teams that "lace em up" and play year after year knowing that they have very little chance of success deserve some accolades, but I don't think most of those teams face a beating every time out that NPP would receive facing that schedule. Hopefully the AIA will use some common sense when scheduling games this time out. But common sense and the AIA don't tend to spend a lot of time together.
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Posted: 11/08/2012 9:46 AM
Re: Appeal Results
I just don't see the injury deal as big as people make it, at least not at the highschool level. I'm on the field every week, and have been for years and years. Is there a physical beat down that goes on in these games, yep I don't contest that. But there is a large, large difference between getting beat physically, mentally and on the scoreboard to what we classify as injury. As coaches put it, there is a difference between "injury" and "hurt". Our head coach and a large % of my towns football fans had the exact same fears of they're too big, too mean, too tough, they will hurt our poor little boys, about having to face the likes of Show Low, BR, and Snowflake in consecutive weeks when they went to geographic scheduling 2 years ago. After all they have roughly 3 times the enrollment. Funny thing has happened, in two years of that schedule, I don't think we have seen a single major "injury" to our kids. In fact, we have been physically beat up more, but "injured" less.
There is no doubt, north point would have taken a drubbing, but is it any different than Alchesay or Sanders taking on BR and Showlow. Or Rough Rock or Pinion taking on SJ---sorry I don't see the diffference. Was NP schedule a juggernaut, no doubt, could kids have been severely "Injured" no doubt they could have, but that is football. If you want a lower % of severe injury, Football is probably a sport you should not play. Go play the other sport with the round spotted ball. Some of the worst injuries I have seen have been in games where the playing field is pretty level, and I've even seen a dominant team, winning on the scoreboard have kids go down with blown out knees, ankles, and broken arms and legs. Football is just not a sport where I think if your playing other same aged highschool aged kids, that the injury factor is out of line, regardless of what division it is.
Last edited 11/08/2012 9:50 AM by sprinkler
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Posted: 11/08/2012 10:03 AM
Re: Appeal Results
This discussion came up about a year ago.
And although I do agree with Sprinkler for the most part, I do think there are some rare occasions where things can be unsafe. I think the example I used was a 120lb freshman going head on with a 220 lb who runs a 4.6 40 and hits like a ton of bricks.
You really dont see that at the larger levels because a 120 lb freshman will never see the field in varsity competition. But on rare occasion, 1A/D6 (and MAYBE 2A/D5) teams will be forced to throw some undersized freshman out there just to field a varsity team. If this is the case, maybe those teams should really re-evaluate whether or not they should be playing varsity football.
NPP was an average to below average 2A program. I would be willing to bet that they could have put 11 players out there on the field who were not going to be in any danger of getting hurt. With the enrollment and student base they have, there is no reason why they shouldnt be able to do that.
In my opinion I firmly believe the NPP situation had more to do with the school not wanting to get their teeth kicked in every week, and a stubborn principal who just wanted some attention. He tried to make it about a "safety" issue when I dont believe it ever really was. But thats the type of decisions that are made when principals who know nothing about athletics are calling the shots.
Cortez has been getting waxed for years now. And up until 2 seasons ago, they played a 4A/D3 type of schedule. I havent seen them give up their varsity program yet.
Last edited 11/08/2012 10:14 AM by MetroInsider
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- HSFB6630
- College Star
- 170 posts this site
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Posted: 11/08/2012 12:38 PM
Re: Appeal Results
The biggest difference I see is in the scheduling. While ST. Johns will play the beasts from the east they also play several other schools that are easy pickings for them, as well as others that compete with them. Alchesey will get pounded by the big boys also but at least have a chance against some of the other schools from the reservation. The NPP schedule would have nobody on it that they could have given a game too.
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Posted: 11/08/2012 1:36 PM
Re: Appeal Results
I agree with Metro, that there are specific instances where, at the smaller level schools you can have a true freshman, who is small in stature, who might have to take on one of those bigger studs. But even D6 schools generally have a couple of big, athletic, strong kids who go in the 220 range. And every now and again on certain plays, the little Freshman may get clobbered by one of these boys--in a d6 vs a d6 game. There is no doubt in my mind that NP would have got hammered on the scoreboard in most if not all of there games---but severe injury--that was a red herring of protest because lots and lots of folks now a days have no clue how to deal with losing or an 0-10 season. Canceling the season was nothing more than a publicity stunt, based on very little actual data that NP would have this rash of severe injury if they had played out the schedule.
I saw Alchesay, get drubbed by Holbrook of all teams this year. Holbrook is horrible, so what does that make Alchesay when the score is 50-0 at half against Holbrook. Alchesay didn't quit at Halftime, they didn't cancel the season, they soldiered on. Alchesay played a number of Freshman, in fact their starting qb was a freshman. There is no doubt in my mind, if BR wanted to hang 150 on Alchesay this year they could have. They didn't, most coaches no when to call the dogs off. If the coach doesn't understand this concept the officiating crew will get the point across to him. Alchesay played the game and in fact played the year out. There is a lesson to be learned in both winning and losing, and those kids who went through the entire season of beat down after beat down, but continued to come out and practice and play will be better for it, I have no doubt.
Last edited 11/08/2012 2:14 PM by sprinkler
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Posted: 11/08/2012 5:25 PM
Re: Appeal Results
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--- sprinkler wrote:
But even D6 schools generally have a couple of big, athletic, strong kids who go in the 220 range.
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I did take notice that you said generally. Here's GC's lineup. Not even one player bordering on 200lbs!
#___Name_______________Pos.______Yr_____Ht_______W t
4___Trae Still____________RB, LB_____So.____5-10____165
6___Jake Curtner (C).____OL, LB, K.____Sr.____6-0_____175
7___Tanner Conover______WR, CB____So.____5-5_____130
8___Corbin Young (C).____WR, DE_____Sr.____6-0_____160
9___Derek Phillips (C)_____WR, DE____Sr._____6-0_____160
10__Trey Gass (C)______ATH, DB_____Sr._____5-9_____145
11__Saile Daimwood.___RB, CB, ATH.__Jr._____5-7_____145
12__Zac Miller__________ OL, DL_____Jr._____6-0______165
20__Jordan Sloan________WR, DB____So.____5-5______135
22__Andrew Sherman.___ATH, FS, WR._Jr.____5-9______150
23__TJ Malm___________WR, DE_____Fr.____5-11_____150
24__Andres Duran_______OL, DL______Jr.____5-8______185
27__Devyn Zeier________WR, DE_____Fr._____5-9_____147
29__Clifford Jenkins_____WR, DB, K___Jr._____5-10_____150
30__Benji Taylor_________DT, OL_____Fr._____5-5_____135
33__Scotts Gottschalk____OL, DL_____So._____5-11____150
I'm sure there are other programs out there with similar rosters.
Last edited 11/08/2012 6:15 PM by grumpyaztec
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Posted: 11/08/2012 8:47 PM
Re: Appeal Results
Buckeye is already D4
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Posted: 11/09/2012 4:50 AM
Re: Appeal Results
Aztec,
That's a physically small team there at GC. And I'm sure there might be a handful more like that as well, hence the term generally. I don't see a lot of d6 football, but I do see a lot of d5-d4 football and seems every team I see has a handful at least of kids over 200 lbs. I've seen a few approaching the 300 lb mark as well. Out of all the d6 teams, I would say if I was a betting man, there are more with a kid or kids over 200 than there are rosters like GC. Would you agree?
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Posted: 11/09/2012 7:27 AM
Re: Appeal Results
I think when we are talking player safety, experience is much more valuable than a player's size.
A 5-8 140lb senior that has been playing since he was in Jr high, is much more physically ready to play varsity than a 200lb freshman who has never played football before.
But I do agree, that GC roster is very small. To not have a player over 200lb is very rare.
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- Tangled
- Heisman
- 374 posts this site
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Posted: 11/09/2012 7:46 AM
Re: Appeal Results
One thing different between Alchesay and North Pointe, Alchesay kids start playing the White Mountain Schools in the 7th grade, and they've been playing them for over 30 years, this is why when they leave the White Mountain area they usually fare well.
North Pointe was being thrown to the "wolves" with no transition period. I just read Abilene Christian (a long time D2 university) will be making the move to D1, I guarantee you they wont have T. Tech, UT, and OU on their schedule.
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