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Movin on Up...(Or Down)

Posted: 10/31/2012 2:11 PM

Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


Well, it may be Halloween, but it is also Moving Day. (Or at least, Petition to Move Day)

Who knows who has submitted petitions one way or the other?

(If you post, please indicate your level of certainty. Rumors always welcome if they are noted as such.)

Last edited 10/31/2012 2:13 PM by NortheastMetroPhxFootballFan

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Posted: 11/01/2012 8:17 AM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


Buena, Tucson, and Sunnyside have all petitioned down due to no other division 1 teams in southern AZ. Buena and Sunnyside have a good chance because their population is just above the minimum however Tucson is way above the minimum. Buena should dominate southern AZ in basketball and Sunnyside always dominates in wrestling if their petitions are accepted.
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Posted: 11/01/2012 8:31 AM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 



yelowjacket wrote: Buena, Tucson, and Sunnyside have all petitioned down due to no other division 1 teams in southern AZ. Buena and Sunnyside have a good chance because their population is just above the minimum however Tucson is way above the minimum. Buena should dominate southern AZ in basketball and Sunnyside always dominates in wrestling if their petitions are accepted.
Petitons are on a sport by sport basis.  So Sunnyside could compete in D1 for wrestling, and D2 for football (if their petition to move down is approved).
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Posted: 11/01/2012 11:14 AM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


Williams Field will stay at D3.  They aren’t close to the D2 enrollment numbers.  Will try and strengthen pre-section games by scheduling nearby big schools for freedom games (i.e. Gilbert, Mesquite, Dobson, etc.).   

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Posted: 11/01/2012 11:23 AM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 



yelowjacket wrote: Buena, Tucson, and Sunnyside have all petitioned down due to no other division 1 teams in southern AZ. Buena and Sunnyside have a good chance because their population is just above the minimum however Tucson is way above the minimum. Buena should dominate southern AZ in basketball and Sunnyside always dominates in wrestling if their petitions are accepted.
I don't think they will allow Buena to petition down in basketball, they have had enough success that they don't need it and they are in the middle of nowhere so they have to travel no matter what.  And no they wouldn't dominate D2 basketball in So. AZ.  Amphi, Salpointe, Nogales, and Cat Foot would all be better than them. 

Why let Sunnyside and Buena move to D2 in football and leave Tucson in D1, that would completely screw Tucson high.  If Buena and Sunnyside stay then they can make 3 teams in one section, and 3 others from close by teams. 

I like the idea of teams moving up and down but man if all these go through its a major advantage to some teams, and disadvantage to others.  Plus the problems of balancing the divisions.  You can't have 55 teams in D2, and 30 in D1, so if they approve all these petitions, then they need to re-balance the divisions which will cause huge headaches for teams.  This is headed for a real mess.
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Posted: 11/01/2012 2:06 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


http://www.aiaonline
.org/story/uploads/Division_Ap..._1351796493.pdf


Looks like Sunnyside and Buena are petitioning down to II, Nogales petitioning down to III, Amphi petitioning down to IV and Sabino unfortunately staying in III.  I didnt see Tuc. High on list, I am suprised they are staying DI
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Posted: 11/01/2012 2:42 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


What a joke.

Unless I missed one, there were only 6 football programs that petitioned to move up BUT 45 trying to move down.

The religious schools (Notre Dame, Phx Christian, Salpointe and St. Marys), along with Sabino and Yuma petitioned to move up. That's it. No Chap? shocking...
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Posted: 11/01/2012 3:08 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


Why should Chap petition up to D-1 and be a small fish in the big pond when they are one of the big fish in the small pond now.
Chap fought to stay in D-4 for the longest time by playing with their enrollment numbers and finally were forced into D-5. 
No Chap is not going up to D-1 unless they are forced by the AIA (joke) to do so.
Birds are good in 2 but in 1 they not going to beat the elite teams.
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Posted: 11/01/2012 3:13 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


Oh, I don't know. Maybe because their AD said they were going to and they have some integrity over there.

Wait!
What?
Oh, my bad.

That was just Ragle jacking everyone around last year? They didn't make that decision at an institutional level? It was just a guy getting pub before he left town? Oh, I get it. Never mind then.

NDRecruiter, feel free to explain this to us....
SirWalter43 wrote: Why should Chap petition up to D-1 and be a small fish in the big pond when they are one of the big fish in the small pond now.
Chap fought to stay in D-4 for the longest time by playing with their enrollment numbers and finally were forced into D-5. 
No Chap is not going up to D-1 unless they are forced by the AIA (joke) to do so.
Birds are good in 2 but in 1 they not going to beat the elite teams.
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Posted: 11/01/2012 3:29 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 



SirWalter43 wrote: Why should Chap petition up to D-1 and be a small fish in the big pond when they are one of the big fish in the small pond now.
Chap fought to stay in D-4 for the longest time by playing with their enrollment numbers and finally were forced into D-5. 
No Chap is not going up to D-1 unless they are forced by the AIA (joke) to do so.
Birds are good in 2 but in 1 they not going to beat the elite teams.

D-1 is a far smaller pond than D-2 could ever dream of.

"You've got to remember, that these are just simple farmers, these are people of the land, the common clay of the new west. You know . . . morons."

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Posted: 11/01/2012 5:51 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


What I equate pond size to is the talent of teams such as Hamilton, Brophy, Mountain Point, Desert Vista, Desert Ridge, Basha, etc.; talent makes for a pretty big pond.
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Posted: 11/01/2012 6:45 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


This is a load of ****. So many teams asking to petition down. I can't believe some of these schools are asking for this. What is Rincon's reasoning it needs to be division 2 in basketball? I can go through this list and find probably 50 examples similar to Rincon's.

Bravo to teams that have the balls to move up. Should be a lot more on this list for football...Saguaro, Chap, Cent, Blue Ridge....
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Posted: 11/01/2012 7:26 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


If its true that you can petition up or down by sport, it seems the top D2 (Centennial, Chap) schools no longer have an excuse not to do so. My guess is they are very happy with where they are.

Please note, that this is not a jab at those schools. With their enrollments, they would be at a big disadvantage playing schools with over 3000 students. But let's end this pretense that D2 is somehow just as tough. If it was, then centennial and chap would already be playing in D1. 

Maybe due to geography those schools might have easier schedules but that's really a moot point. It's the gold ball that would be tougher to take home. Not winning percentage.
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Posted: 11/01/2012 7:35 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 



JAKEandELWOOD wrote: If its true that you can petition up or down by sport, it seems the top D2 (Centennial, Chap) schools no longer have an excuse not to do so. My guess is they are very happy with where they are.

Please note, that this is not a jab at those schools. With their enrollments, they would be at a big disadvantage playing schools with over 3000 students. But let's end this pretense that D2 is somehow just as tough. If it was, then centennial and chap would already be playing in D1. 

Maybe due to geography those schools might have easier schedules but that's really a moot point. It's the gold ball that would be tougher to take home. Not winning percentage.
The "gold ball" would be tougher to take home due to geography, as you can not prep a D-1 state title squad playing a steady diet of west valley or northeast valley D-1 competition.  Continued utilization of geographic scheduling in D-1 will do nothing but prove successful in turning the D-1 title into an east valley invitational.

"You've got to remember, that these are just simple farmers, these are people of the land, the common clay of the new west. You know . . . morons."

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Posted: 11/01/2012 7:49 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 



dangerouswoody wrote:
JAKEandELWOOD wrote: If its true that you can petition up or down by sport, it seems the top D2 (Centennial, Chap) schools no longer have an excuse not to do so. My guess is they are very happy with where they are.

Please note, that this is not a jab at those schools. With their enrollments, they would be at a big disadvantage playing schools with over 3000 students. But let's end this pretense that D2 is somehow just as tough. If it was, then centennial and chap would already be playing in D1. 

Maybe due to geography those schools might have easier schedules but that's really a moot point. It's the gold ball that would be tougher to take home. Not winning percentage.
The "gold ball" would be tougher to take home due to geography, as you can not prep a D-1 state title squad playing a steady diet of west valley or northeast valley D-1 competition.  Continued utilization of geographic scheduling in D-1 will do nothing but prove successful in turning the D-1 title into an east valley invitational.
And how many teams on their schedule right now are challenging them woody? 1-2?

I'm guessing that even with geo scheduling Centennial would see Westview and maybe even Brophy (as that 7th or 8th closest D1 school). Plus you get 2 freedom games. Sorry, but if you're selling the idea that Centennial's not moving up because they want to maintain a competitive schedule, no one's buying.
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Posted: 11/01/2012 8:21 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 



JAKEandELWOOD wrote:
And how many teams on their schedule right now are challenging them woody? 1-2?

I'm guessing that even with geo scheduling Centennial would see Westview and maybe even Brophy (as that 7th or 8th closest D1 school). Plus you get 2 freedom games. Sorry, but if you're selling the idea that Centennial's not moving up because they want to maintain a competitive schedule, no one's buying.
The current state in D-2 is a different scenario altogether, as you're not asking a team to go up against a Hamilton (where the conversation of D-1 superiority begins and ends) with all of two challenging games.  Overall D-2 is a far superior division, but Hamilton is in a class by themselves.

I'm not sure why you'd bring Brophy and Westview into the conversation, as these are two teams Centennial beat the pants off multiple times in recent years.  Having those games unto themselves does little to prep a team for a title run in D-1, especially when you consider they have no guarantee that the East Valley powers are going to agree to a freedom game against a West Valley foe (it simply serves no upside to the East Valley schools, especially when many consider that nature will take its course with these supposed lesser squads come playoff time).

"You've got to remember, that these are just simple farmers, these are people of the land, the common clay of the new west. You know . . . morons."

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Posted: 11/01/2012 8:34 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


Uh Buena swept Nogales last year and hasn't lost to Salpointe since this years seniors were freshmen. Although they only scrimmaged.last year. They also swept IR the last season they played. Amphi would be the only school that would be better and they are division 3. Again Buena would dominate SOAZ in basketball like they have for the last 7 or 8 years. And while Buena is in the middle of nowhere it's still only an hour from Tucson but 3 hours from Phoenix where all the other sports would have to travel in the middle of a school week not to mention the affect travel would have on all the JV programs. Petitioning down is the right thing for them to do. Tucson will have to figure something, out moving forward.

---------------------------------------------
--- FootballFanatic2009 wrote:


yelowjacket wrote: Buena, Tucson, and Sunnyside have all petitioned down due to no other division 1 teams in southern AZ. Buena and Sunnyside have a good chance because their population is just above the minimum however Tucson is way above the minimum. Buena should dominate southern AZ in basketball and Sunnyside always dominates in wrestling if their petitions are accepted.
I don't think they will allow Buena to petition down in basketball, they have had enough success that they don't need it and they are in the middle of nowhere so they have to travel no matter what.  And no they wouldn't dominate D2 basketball in So. AZ.  Amphi, Salpointe, Nogales, and Cat Foot would all be better than them. 

Why let Sunnyside and Buena move to D2 in football and leave Tucson in D1, that would completely screw Tucson high.  If Buena and Sunnyside stay then they can make 3 teams in one section, and 3 others from close by teams. 

I like the idea of teams moving up and down but man if all these go through its a major advantage to some teams, and disadvantage to others.  Plus the problems of balancing the divisions.  You can't have 55 teams in D2, and 30 in D1, so if they approve all these petitions, then they need to re-balance the divisions which will cause huge headaches for teams.  This is headed for a real mess.

---------------------------------------------

Last edited 11/01/2012 9:03 PM by JHolloway

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Posted: 11/01/2012 8:59 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 



dangerouswoody wrote:
JAKEandELWOOD wrote:
And how many teams on their schedule right now are challenging them woody? 1-2?

I'm guessing that even with geo scheduling Centennial would see Westview and maybe even Brophy (as that 7th or 8th closest D1 school). Plus you get 2 freedom games. Sorry, but if you're selling the idea that Centennial's not moving up because they want to maintain a competitive schedule, no one's buying.
The current state in D-2 is a different scenario altogether, as you're not asking a team to go up against a Hamilton (where the conversation of D-1 superiority begins and ends) with all of two challenging games.  Overall D-2 is a far superior division, but Hamilton is in a class by themselves.

I'm not sure why you'd bring Brophy and Westview into the conversation, as these are two teams Centennial beat the pants off multiple times in recent years.  Having those games unto themselves does little to prep a team for a title run in D-1, especially when you consider they have no guarantee that the East Valley powers are going to agree to a freedom game against a West Valley foe (it simply serves no upside to the East Valley schools, especially when many consider that nature will take its course with these supposed lesser squads come playoff time).
Last time I checked, Hamilton lost this year to MP and in the title game to DV a year ago. Basha also played them to the wire. To say that Hamilton is the "beginning and end" to D1 superiority is somewhat like saying Centennial and Chap are the beginning and end of the superiority between D2-D3 just because they've shared the title for the last X-amount of years. True, Centennial and Chap could hang in D1. But a title run would be a lot tougher, and yes that goes beyond Hamilton. 

As for Brophy and Westview, I never laid claim to them being superior to Centennial or that those would be L's on centennial's schedule. I was just pointing out that Centennial would play about as many tough teams in D1 as they do currently in D2. Is that enough for a title run? Maybe not. But it's enough for a high seed. Something many of those east valley teams (Chandler, Basha) would kill for right now. Instead they're staring right at a first-round exit.

But for the sake of argument, let's take your word for it and say that its a legitimate reason for not moving up. To take it further let's just say that hypothetically speaking, the scheduling system changes and for whatever reason Centennial would play hamilton, chandler, basha, and DV (i.e similar schedule to Corona, Mesa, MP, etc.).  If scheduling quality opponents is the reason why you would oppose it currently, in this scenario would you say it's wise?

The answer is no. It still wouldn't be in Centennial's best interest to go D1 in football when considering their chances of a state championship. Their chances in D2 are a lot better year-to-year.
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Posted: 11/01/2012 9:09 PM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


Here's the stats if ALL petitions are approved:

13 teams are asking OUT of the 40 that were originally placed in Division I.  That leaves 27 with 16 making the playoffs.

In Division II, 14 go IN (10 down from Division I plus Yuma, St. Mary's, Notre Dame, and Salpointe up) while 15 go DOWN.  That leaves 39 teams in Division II.

The combined Division I and II is currently 82.

IF All petitions are approved, the combined Division I and II would drop to 66.

I didn't run all the numbers on Division III, but it looks like it would be pretty big.

What happened to the clause that teams could petition down if they finished in the bottom 8 in a 3-year span?  Many teams asking down (actually, almost all) don't meet that criterion.  Will be interesting to see how the committee rules in a couple of weeks.
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Posted: 11/02/2012 9:35 AM

Re: Movin on Up...(Or Down) 


+1
dangerouswoody wrote:
JAKEandELWOOD wrote: If its true that you can petition up or down by sport, it seems the top D2 (Centennial, Chap) schools no longer have an excuse not to do so. My guess is they are very happy with where they are.

Please note, that this is not a jab at those schools. With their enrollments, they would be at a big disadvantage playing schools with over 3000 students. But let's end this pretense that D2 is somehow just as tough. If it was, then centennial and chap would already be playing in D1. 

Maybe due to geography those schools might have easier schedules but that's really a moot point. It's the gold ball that would be tougher to take home. Not winning percentage.
The "gold ball" would be tougher to take home due to geography, as you can not prep a D-1 state title squad playing a steady diet of west valley or northeast valley D-1 competition.  Continued utilization of geographic scheduling in D-1 will do nothing but prove successful in turning the D-1 title into an east valley invitational.
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