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WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72

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Posted: 02/01/2013 8:20 AM

WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


According to wikipedia.  Just enough to keep the wolves away.  My biggest beef of late?  HOME court softness.
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Posted: 02/01/2013 2:48 PM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


My impression is that we've reached a ceiling with Verlin.  An arena would boost the program a little bit but he's been very consistent at what he does for 5 years and that's a sign that we will continue to see what we have seen.  The worst he'll do is a few games under .500, the best he'll do is a few games over .500

He'll get one recruit per year that turns into a pretty good player (Barone, Madison, Hill, hopefully Egbert and Callandret) but even when he has 2 or 3 of those good players at once, as he does now, he won't be able to get them to consistently play at a high level.  And he'll also get some high school players that never develop for whatever reason (Kammerer, Borton, Bazille) and one or 2 players per year that don't ever show up or don't stick around more than a couple months (Winston, Sterns, Parker, Idell Bell, Anthony Jones, Starke, etc.)

He'll find some JC kids that become decent contributors by their final year (Ledbetter, Henderson, Wiley, Jefferson, Tatum, Geiger, Habeeb, McChristian, Bandoumel, DeSousa)  but he'll also miss completely on several (Parker, Starke, Faines, Bell, Marcus Lawrence, Seck)

The comparison between Verlin and Morrill is actually an excellent illustration.  They both get a similar caliber of player, but somehow Morrill gets them to bust their butts and play with intensity every game and Verlin almost never gets his team to play to their potential for even a complete game.

 

Last edited 02/01/2013 3:30 PM by TyVandal

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Posted: 02/01/2013 3:22 PM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


Ty, excellent analysis.  This says it in a very objective and factual argument.  Well done.
TyVandal wrote: My impression is that we've reached a ceiling with Verlin.  An arena would boost the program a little bit but he's been very consistent at what he does for 5 years and that's a sign that we will continue to see what we have seen.  The worst he'll do is a few games under .500, the best he'll do is a few games over .500

He'll get one recruit per year that turns into a pretty good player (Barone, Madison, Hill, hopefully Egbert and Callandret) but he'll also get some high school players that never develop for whatever reason (Kammerer, Borton, Bazille) and one or 2 players per year that don't ever show up or don't stick around more than a couple months (Winston, Sterns, Parker, Idell Bell, Anthony Jones, Starke, etc.)

He'll find some JC kids that become decent contributors by their final year (Ledbetter, Henderson, Wiley, Jefferson, Tatum, Geiger, Habeeb, McChristian, Bandoumel, DeSousa)  but he'll also miss completely on several (Parker, Starke, Faines, Bell, Marcus Lawrence, Seck)

The comparison between Verlin and Morrill is actually an excellent illustration.  They both get a similar caliber of player, but somehow Morrill gets them to bust the butts and play with intensity every game and Verlin almost never gets his team to play to their potential for even a complete game.
.FBS football or no football.  Do the math.  Go Vandals!
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Posted: 02/02/2013 5:59 AM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


Bravo.

Some coaches are program builders, some are sustainers, and others take the program to the next level. They aren't interchangeable and I suspect Verlin is in the first group. He righted the ship, but is barely .500 enough to deserve a new deal with all the problems with retention and discipline?

---------------------------------------------
--- TyVandal wrote:

My impression is that we've reached a ceiling with Verlin.  An arena would boost the program a little bit but he's been very consistent at what he does for 5 years and that's a sign that we will continue to see what we have seen.  The worst he'll do is a few games under .500, the best he'll do is a few games over .500

He'll get one recruit per year that turns into a pretty good player (Barone, Madison, Hill, hopefully Egbert and Callandret) but even when he has 2 or 3 of those good players at once, as he does now, he won't be able to get them to consistently play at a high level.  And he'll also get some high school players that never develop for whatever reason (Kammerer, Borton, Bazille) and one or 2 players per year that don't ever show up or don't stick around more than a couple months (Winston, Sterns, Parker, Idell Bell, Anthony Jones, Starke, etc.)

He'll find some JC kids that become decent contributors by their final year (Ledbetter, Henderson, Wiley, Jefferson, Tatum, Geiger, Habeeb, McChristian, Bandoumel, DeSousa)  but he'll also miss completely on several (Parker, Starke, Faines, Bell, Marcus Lawrence, Seck)

The comparison between Verlin and Morrill is actually an excellent illustration.  They both get a similar caliber of player, but somehow Morrill gets them to bust their butts and play with intensity every game and Verlin almost never gets his team to play to their potential for even a complete game.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 02/02/2013 7:39 AM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


It just amazes me the dilusional state of Vandal fans. Compare Verlin's record in 5 years to the previous 20 years. Wac road wins, overall wins, ect. You have no idea how well he has done there with what he has to work with. The administration support and facilities is an absolute joke. Nic attendance to. It's all a joke and embarrasing. Yet Vandals think they should have been invited the the Mt. West. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A BASKETBALL ARENA! It's 2013 and your D1? (won't even get into the football arena) Not even a plan.

Be careful what you wish for fellas. alot of people on the outside see what the coach has done there with the tools he has to work with.
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Posted: 02/02/2013 7:49 AM

RE: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


And while your "fact finding", compare how much money Coach Verlin has raised himself for the benefit of the program campared to others. Yes, he has to raise money because of the ineptness of the fundraising there.
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Posted: 02/02/2013 7:59 AM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 



FosterVandal wrote: It just amazes me the dilusional state of Vandal fans. Compare Verlin's record in 5 years to the previous 20 years. Wac road wins, overall wins, ect. You have no idea how well he has done there with what he has to work with. The administration support and facilities is an absolute joke. Nic attendance to. It's all a joke and embarrasing. Yet Vandals think they should have been invited the the Mt. West. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A BASKETBALL ARENA! It's 2013 and your D1? (won't even get into the football arena) Not even a plan.

Be careful what you wish for fellas. alot of people on the outside see what the coach has done there with the tools he has to work with.
I tend to fall into this camp. While I am as frustrated as many with Verlin's teams perpetual tendency to play to the level of the competition (ie...around .500 ball)...it IS light years ahead of historical performances. AND...I would REALLY like to see what kind of recruits he could get if he had an actual arena to recruit to...
Success is gained through experience. Experience is gained by learning from mistakes. You will never make mistakes if you do not take risks. Nor will you ever succeed.
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Posted: 02/02/2013 8:04 AM

RE: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


RNCKE, need more of you and the Idaho Vandals could take steps forward.
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Posted: 02/02/2013 9:20 AM

RE: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


So Foster"Vandal" how long does your friend Don get a pass?

I agree .500 is a hell of a lot better than his two immediate predecessors. However, this is supposedly his best team. So Verlin's performance demands discussion. I generally like Verlin, but the repeated failings are starting to pile up. I certainly don't think he should be canned this year. But I believe next year will tell us everything we need to know.

If you don't like reading negative posts about your friend, don't visit message boards.
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Posted: 02/02/2013 9:47 AM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 



FosterVandal wrote: It just amazes me the dilusional state of Vandal fans. Compare Verlin's record in 5 years to the previous 20 years. Wac road wins, overall wins, ect. You have no idea how well he has done there with what he has to work with. The administration support and facilities is an absolute joke. Nic attendance to. It's all a joke and embarrasing. Yet Vandals think they should have been invited the the Mt. West. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A BASKETBALL ARENA! It's 2013 and your D1? (won't even get into the football arena) Not even a plan.

Be careful what you wish for fellas. alot of people on the outside see what the coach has done there with the tools he has to work with.
Bravo. Verlin is the first Idaho MBB coach to be legitimately above .500 in more than 20 years. While his losses are extremely frustrating, the lack of perspective is pathetic.

I also love how some underclassmen are in the "just never developed" category. Seeing we're into stereotyping like 427 loves to, c'mon Vandal "fans". Pop your heads out, see the world, and see the difference. If you think Idaho is currently a place where you can assemble an entire team of all-stars, you may want to switch teams for a while.

______________________________________________________________________________________
Harry Balsagna, Class of '00

Last edited 02/02/2013 9:58 AM by Mailleman

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Posted: 02/02/2013 11:24 AM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 



Mailleman wrote:
FosterVandal wrote: It just amazes me the dilusional state of Vandal fans. Compare Verlin's record in 5 years to the previous 20 years. Wac road wins, overall wins, ect. You have no idea how well he has done there with what he has to work with. The administration support and facilities is an absolute joke. Nic attendance to. It's all a joke and embarrasing. Yet Vandals think they should have been invited the the Mt. West. YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE A BASKETBALL ARENA! It's 2013 and your D1? (won't even get into the football arena) Not even a plan.

Be careful what you wish for fellas. alot of people on the outside see what the coach has done there with the tools he has to work with.
Bravo. Verlin is the first Idaho MBB coach to be legitimately above .500 in more than 20 years. While his losses are extremely frustrating, the lack of perspective is pathetic.

I also love how some underclassmen are in the "just never developed" category. Seeing we're into stereotyping like 427 loves to, c'mon Vandal "fans". Pop your heads out, see the world, and see the difference. If you think Idaho is currently a place where you can assemble an entire team of all-stars, you may want to switch teams for a while.
Who did I stereotype?
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Posted: 02/02/2013 11:31 AM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


Additionally, "legitimately above .500" isn't so legitimate when you consider Verlin follows Coach Morrill's scheduling philosophy (and rightfully so in my opinion).

I apologize that I don't accept the axiom that as Vandals we don't deserve nice things. Read my posts, I am fine with Verlin at this point (again, next year will be determinative). But to argue that his record doesn't deserve some level of critique is insane.
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Posted: 02/02/2013 11:32 AM

RE: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 



FosterVandal wrote: And while your "fact finding", compare how much money Coach Verlin has raised himself for the benefit of the program campared to others. Yes, he has to raise money because of the ineptness of the fundraising there.
Please, enlighten us with these numbers.
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Posted: 02/02/2013 1:17 PM

RE: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


I certainly feel that any fan who does not question this 500 static bar, no matter the facilities (Cowan is not an arena, but it is not some dump), the weakness on mental toughness at HOME, using the past chitty HCs as an excuse, is really a fan with not much of a pulse or passion-pride.  We expect a titch better in year five  and we expect to be Vandal tough at Home, be it Memorial Gym, Cowan or Moscow High.
.FBS football or no football.  Do the math.  Go Vandals!

Last edited 02/02/2013 3:17 PM by joeyvee

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Posted: 02/02/2013 2:56 PM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


I think Verlin is a solid coach on most areas. His offensive system works well, he's usually good with preparing the team for games, and he's able to develop players (players that have a higher ceiling). My concern is recruiting. Verlin has learned a lot of good things from Morrill. But, he hasn't been as successful as Morrill is on recruiting. Like others have said, he brings in usually one HS player a year that ends of doing well (Madison, Hill...) brings in JC players that contribute well at least by their senior year. But there's too many JC players and even HS players that are major flops or don't show up.
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Posted: 02/02/2013 4:15 PM

RE: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


It should have been obvious when I put "fans" in quotes. On these boards anyone who doesn't subscribe to the ideas at hand is not a "Vandal". FosterVandal brings some very legit points. If the Cowan isn't an arena, and isn't a dump, what is it? (other than a temporary excuse for a bball facility) Our practice courts are in the student rec center. The only thing the Vandal basketball teams have to call home is their locker rooms.

And not to pick on Joey, but this is exactly the point. "Passion" and "Pride" only go so far, and they sure as hell don't win games for us. You can't just say playing at home (on one of the worst home "courts") and year-X of a coach's reign (a pointless statistic) entitle anything. To think the facility doesn't matter is to ignore reality completely. For Idaho, a Bball program that has a historical record under .500, a consistently above .500 coach should be a blessing. Vandals don't "deserve" nice things, Vandals should earn and build them, and so far, we haven't. We need to get off the boat the USS Pretentious before we can get anywhere.

______________________________________________________________________________________
Harry Balsagna, Class of '00

Last edited 02/02/2013 4:20 PM by Mailleman

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Posted: 02/02/2013 6:52 PM

RE: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 



Mailleman wrote: It should have been obvious when I put "fans" in quotes. On these boards anyone who doesn't subscribe to the ideas at hand is not a "Vandal". FosterVandal brings some very legit points. If the Cowan isn't an arena, and isn't a dump, what is it? (other than a temporary excuse for a bball facility) Our practice courts are in the student rec center. The only thing the Vandal basketball teams have to call home is their locker rooms.

And not to pick on Joey, but this is exactly the point. "Passion" and "Pride" only go so far, and they sure as hell don't win games for us. You can't just say playing at home (on one of the worst home "courts") and year-X of a coach's reign (a pointless statistic) entitle anything. To think the facility doesn't matter is to ignore reality completely. For Idaho, a Bball program that has a historical record under .500, a consistently above .500 coach should be a blessing. Vandals don't "deserve" nice things, Vandals should earn and build them, and so far, we haven't. We need to get off the boat the USS Pretentious before we can get anywhere.
I think you need to look up the definition of stereotype.

As for FosterVandal, the dude's posts clearly show that he is one of Verlin's buddies. He doesn't care about Idaho (hence "Vandal"). He just cares about his friend. I understand that. I also understand our deficiencies. But I do not agree that we should not hold our coaches accountable because we have those deficiencies. Every school has deficiencies.

My point is not mutually exclusive to your position. I agree that our administration is an absolute joke. Dr. Spear should have been replaced years ago (and the fact that he wasn't replaced during the past year terrifies me) and Dr. Nellis is completely ineffectual.

That being said, I simply do not see why it's so ridiculous to critique a coach that has never won a conference tournament game, and who has accumulated 7 wins (sorry Walla Walla doesn't count) and 12 losses in his 5th season with the league's best post.
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Posted: 02/02/2013 7:34 PM

RE: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


And, yes, we have a winner folks.  Another great counter punch by Vandal427.  Let's next blame the water system of Moscow, Foster and Mail.  An athlete is an athlete be it in the student rec gym practicing or practicing in a 6K arena.  Coach 'em up tonight Coach V.
vandal427 wrote:
That being said, I simply do not see why it's so ridiculous to critique a coach that has never won a conference tournament game, and who has accumulated 7 wins (sorry Walla Walla doesn't count) and 12 losses in his 5th season with the league's best post.
.FBS football or no football.  Do the math.  Go Vandals!
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Posted: 02/02/2013 9:31 PM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


I sure wish Idaho would win 100% of its games.  I remember that several years prior to Verlin arriving that UI was lucky to win 10 to 15 percent of its games.  When Verlin arrived he changed the culture of men's basketball program.  Despite not having a winning record this year the fact is the Vandals are highly competitive.  That's a lot more than what could be said in the years prior to his arrival. I think Idaho is damn lucky to have Verlin as its coach.  It also seems strange that even after winning 19 games last year (the most wins since Idaho won 24 games in 1992-93) that people are ready to throw away a good coach.

Tell the World what you intend to do but first show it.  Napolean Hill

Last edited 02/02/2013 9:32 PM by sportsisfun1960

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Posted: 02/03/2013 6:28 AM

Re: WAC overall to date: 37-35. All games: 77-72 


There is a lot of talk about how great or even good Verlin is, and the more I think about it the more I wonder how much credit is due?

Recruiting? There are some gems out there, but for each gem there's 2 recruits who never make it past their first year or even campus, our depth is thin, there's no pg and little depth at the 4 and 5. That's in year 5 folks. Running players off like there's no tomorrow isn't sustainable, that's not even going in to some of the characters he has tried to bring to campus.

Wins? The 19 wins were good last year, but in 5 seasons we are barely over .500. Not impressive.

Quality wins? There have been some good wins in here. But the problem is for every big win over a ranked USU or UP there is a blowout and a terrible loss to a cellar dweller. Hell even some blowout wins turned into even bigger blowout losses. Do you honestly think a good or great coach beats a team by 30 then loses to them by 35 weeks later? That's completely unacceptable and negates any steps forward. Let's not forget that all the cries of "the postseason is what counts" which is repeated everywhere this year is even more damning. Verlin has won what, 1 WAC game despite being the higher seed every year and is 2-3 or 4 in post season tourneys. Compound that with a horrid record in close games and it shows how he is in clutch games.  Rivalry games are even worse and again the JC has blown past us.

Quality play? An electric offense is great, but only if the defense can get enough stops. The team's effort has been questionable for years, they routinely make plays a 7th grader knows not to do, discipline problems abound, and every week we find a new way to lose a game.

 So where is the evidence he is a great coach? The spectrum may be hard to recruit to, but Moscow is a challenge too. What other tools will we have to bring to get his coaching up to snuff and is it worth the investment? The bottom line is Verlin is a ~.510 coach. Is it really that hard to replace a coach who wins barely over .500? We're not asking for a whole lot here, but Vandal fans seem to have some mental block against changing what isn't working. As it was pointed out the last 2 BJC coaches won titles, but their programs languished. The AD found someone better, they built their program up, and now they're having the most successful season they've ever had. Good thing they didn't think "Oh man, .550 a year, we can't risk losing this coach we'll never find anyone better."
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