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The eighth slot

Posted: 7/11/2014 9:57 AM

The eighth slot 


In my view to win a national championship,  or even come close,  you need a rotation of eight players with the bench being productive.  Our first seven is pretty obvious but the eight slot seems up for grabs.  I hope that Brown improves a lot and can be a productive sub.
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Posted: 7/11/2014 10:04 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


VB being able to give FK some relief minutes at the five would be big plus: 1. Help keep FK out of foul trouble; 2. Keeping FK fresh for the entire season.
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Posted: 7/11/2014 10:10 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


Isn't brown a shooter? It'd be nice to bring in another shooting big once Kaminsky is subbed out.
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Posted: 7/11/2014 10:21 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


Our 8th man last year, Dukan, averaged 8.1 mpg - I have 0 concern that we will have any issues finding someone to fill that role this year. The only thing holding us back from being in the top 3, nationally, all year is injuries period.
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  • mbadger
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Posted: 7/11/2014 10:23 AM

Re: The eighth slot 



Dirtydub wrote: Isn't brown a shooter? It'd be nice to bring in another shooting big once Kaminsky is subbed out.

no.  i think he can hit a medium range shot but don't even think he is as accomplished as nigel at that shot.  I think we will see vitto play and also showy or hill.  happ is wild card and if he is really good and ready, he could push for time.  i doubt it though.
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  • Brumus
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Posted: 7/11/2014 10:23 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


Kaminsky, Dekker, Hayes, Gasser, Jackson, Koenig, Dukan, I'll assume are your first 7.

Brown would seem to be the logical choice to be 8th based on talent and playing experience at the end of last season.  With Dekker measuring 6' 9" this summer, this team would seem well off as far as size is concerned.  I think even if Happ is ready for PT, he may have a hard time seeing the court.

The biggest question to me going into this season is which young G will rise to the surface?   Hill?  Can anybody describe his strengths and weaknesses?  I really know nothing about him. Is he more of a 2(SG) or is he a 1(PG)?  Dearing?  At 6' 5" is he a swing/SF type or a true SG?  Jordan Smith or Showalter?  I have concerns about Showalter's quickness to be able to defend athletic guards in the B1G.  Smith?  Again, I'm not familiar with him.

One thing we know is that Bo's history teaches us is that he's unlikely to play a rotation of 10.
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Posted: 7/11/2014 10:37 AM

Re: The eighth slot 



mbadger wrote:
Dirtydub wrote: Isn't brown a shooter? It'd be nice to bring in another shooting big once Kaminsky is subbed out.

no.  i think he can hit a medium range shot but don't even think he is as accomplished as nigel at that shot.  I think we will see vitto play and also showy or hill.  happ is wild card and if he is really good and ready, he could push for time.  i doubt it though.
Brown actually was a shooter from outside in HS. The rap from what I've heard from people who watched many a HS game on him was that as physically gifted as he was he wasn't pushed to mix it up or improve his game inside. In fact, it was because of this weakness that he and his parents were eager to have him under Ryan's wing. Just what I've heard from people who know him and his game during his HS years.

Last edited 7/11/2014 10:56 AM by UnknownBadger

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Posted: 7/11/2014 10:42 AM

Re: The eighth slot 



mbadger wrote:
Dirtydub wrote: Isn't brown a shooter? It'd be nice to bring in another shooting big once Kaminsky is subbed out.

no.  i think he can hit a medium range shot but don't even think he is as accomplished as nigel at that shot.  I think we will see vitto play and also showy or hill.  happ is wild card and if he is really good and ready, he could push for time.  i doubt it though.
My recollection from watching his HS videos - he was (is?) more willing to take shots from beyond the arc than Nigel. Might well be able to hit them a little better as well. But I would be shocked if he is anywhere is as good of a shooter as Nigel on the whole. Hayes hit those mid-range Sikma face-up jumpers at an outstanding percentage. 

For whatever reason, when I saw Brown on the court especially later on in the year, he struck me as a guy really just overflowing with physicality. Nigel is strong, but it's more of a sneaking strong that comes from tremendous balance in everything he does. When Brown is confident enough in what he needs to do and gets a good enough understanding of how the college game is called, I think he's going to be throwing guys around. As a sort of ceiling for his type, how about Larry Johnson?

Engage the good posters, ignore the bad, report as inappropriate the problems. Message board rules. Thanks.
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Posted: 7/11/2014 10:57 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


Happ is the big question.  Brown was getting attention at the end of last season.  Hopefully he will make the jump this year.  Bo will have a great bench to work with this year and will have more choice in subbing when required.  Nice problem to have.
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Posted: 7/11/2014 10:59 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


"Nigel is strong, but it is more of a sneaking strong..." unless you get up close and see him in person. There is nothing sneaky about his strength at all. Nothing!
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Posted: 7/11/2014 11:44 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


It could end up as a seven man rotation this year even though there could be several young players worthy of being part of the rotation.  That said, if in fact we go with a traditional center, forward, forward, guard, guard lineup most or all of the time, numbers suggest that the eight man should be a fifth front court player (no real need for any guard besides Gasser, Jackson, and Koenig), so that probably means either Brown or Happ as the hypothetical eight man.  I am hoping Brown can follow a Nankivil-like track given that he played similar minutes to what Nankivil played as a freshman, i.e., about 45, but Happ could be a special talent, maybe as good as a freshman as Hayes was.  We'll need them both in 2015, but this year there may not be many minutes for either one.  Whichever one doesn't end up playing meaningful minutes this year might be well served to redshirt so we can have them as a star in their fifth year.  As a second year player, Nankivil averaged 14 minutes and 4.5 points per game, so maybe that is what Brown might be capable of if we weren't so deep this year?  As a freshman Hayes averaged 17 minutes and 7.7 points per game, so if that is what Happ might be capable of as a freshman, maybe the edge goes to him, although both should be good enough to play, maybe even pushing Dukan for the top front court reserve spot.  Just not a lot of minutes to go around in the front court this year behind two all-Americans and a budding star in Hayes.

Last edited 7/11/2014 11:56 AM by dcamp

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Posted: 7/11/2014 1:00 PM

Re: The eighth slot 



dcamp wrote: It could end up as a seven man rotation this year even though there could be several young players worthy of being part of the rotation.  That said, if in fact we go with a traditional center, forward, forward, guard, guard lineup most or all of the time, numbers suggest that the eight man should be a fifth front court player (no real need for any guard besides Gasser, Jackson, and Koenig), so that probably means either Brown or Happ as the hypothetical eight man.  I am hoping Brown can follow a Nankivil-like track given that he played similar minutes to what Nankivil played as a freshman, i.e., about 45, but Happ could be a special talent, maybe as good as a freshman as Hayes was.  We'll need them both in 2015, but this year there may not be many minutes for either one.  Whichever one doesn't end up playing meaningful minutes this year might be well served to redshirt so we can have them as a star in their fifth year.  As a second year player, Nankivil averaged 14 minutes and 4.5 points per game, so maybe that is what Brown might be capable of if we weren't so deep this year?  As a freshman Hayes averaged 17 minutes and 7.7 points per game, so if that is what Happ might be capable of as a freshman, maybe the edge goes to him, although both should be good enough to play, maybe even pushing Dukan for the top front court reserve spot.  Just not a lot of minutes to go around in the front court this year behind two all-Americans and a budding star in Hayes.
I suppose Ryan could give Dekker a few minutes at SG.  wink
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Posted: 7/11/2014 6:46 PM

Re: The eighth slot 



UnknownBadger wrote:
dcamp wrote: It could end up as a seven man rotation this year even though there could be several young players worthy of being part of the rotation.  That said, if in fact we go with a traditional center, forward, forward, guard, guard lineup most or all of the time, numbers suggest that the eight man should be a fifth front court player (no real need for any guard besides Gasser, Jackson, and Koenig), so that probably means either Brown or Happ as the hypothetical eight man.  I am hoping Brown can follow a Nankivil-like track given that he played similar minutes to what Nankivil played as a freshman, i.e., about 45, but Happ could be a special talent, maybe as good as a freshman as Hayes was.  We'll need them both in 2015, but this year there may not be many minutes for either one.  Whichever one doesn't end up playing meaningful minutes this year might be well served to redshirt so we can have them as a star in their fifth year.  As a second year player, Nankivil averaged 14 minutes and 4.5 points per game, so maybe that is what Brown might be capable of if we weren't so deep this year?  As a freshman Hayes averaged 17 minutes and 7.7 points per game, so if that is what Happ might be capable of as a freshman, maybe the edge goes to him, although both should be good enough to play, maybe even pushing Dukan for the top front court reserve spot.  Just not a lot of minutes to go around in the front court this year behind two all-Americans and a budding star in Hayes.
I suppose Ryan could give Dekker a few minutes at SG.  wink
If Dekker were to return for 2015 (I'm not sure that is very likely now given how good he is looking this summer), and if we landed both Sharma and Ellenson, or maybe even just Sharma, next year's (starting) five best players might have included Koenig and four front court players, meaning Dekker as the starting shooting guard and Hayes as one of the front court players, unless Ryan wanted to bench someone like Brown and Happ or Sharma so Showalter or Dearring could start.  Ryan goes with what he has, be it three guards like last year, a more traditional lineup this year, or, if Dekker were still here, maybe a center and three forwards next year.  On the other hand, if Dekker is gone and we don't get any of the starting caliber centers we are after, it could be three guards again next year, because we'll have a bunch of shooting guards and only Hayes, Brown, and Happ as returning front court players.

I don't see Dekker playing guard this year.  We have six capable guards, with the top three likely to eat up virtually all of the minutes for the two guard spots.  What is more likely than Dekker playing guard is that we continue to go with three guards at least a little, because this team is virtually 50% guards and 50% front court players.  Three of our top six players are guards, and six of our top twelve are guards.  It is still almost a toss-up between Hayes or Koenig being the fifth starter, although Hayes seems the more logical choice.

Last edited 7/11/2014 7:02 PM by dcamp

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Posted: 7/11/2014 7:57 PM

Re: The eighth slot 


Someone everyone is overlooking is Jordan Hill.  I believe he will be a factor, definitely the 4th guard.......if not why not?  IMO he would be a good sub for TJ, with BK and Gasser sharing time.

Last edited 7/11/2014 7:58 PM by redline59

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Posted: 7/11/2014 8:32 PM

Re: The eighth slot 





---------------------------------------------
--- redline59 wrote:

Someone everyone is overlooking is Jordan Hill.  I believe he will be a factor, definitely the 4th guard.......if not why not?  IMO he would be a good sub for TJ, with BK and Gasser sharing time.

---------------------------------------------

I agree. If he can be a lockdown defender, he should be the 4th guard.
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Posted: 7/11/2014 11:01 PM

Re: The eighth slot 



redline59 wrote: Someone everyone is overlooking is Jordan Hill.  I believe he will be a factor, definitely the 4th guard.......if not why not?  IMO he would be a good sub for TJ, with BK and Gasser sharing time.
All three can play BOTH guard positions and will. Unless Gasser plays major minutes at 3, one of them gets dinged up, or in foul trouble, Hill or whoever the 4th guard is is not going to see much floor time.
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Posted: 7/12/2014 7:48 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


Riley Dearing is a sniper.  Jordan Hill is a lock down defender.  If either of them has greatly improved the other aspects of their game, they both have the ability of getting some minutes.  Don't forget about Showalter either!
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Posted: 7/12/2014 8:32 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


As good as it sounds like Happ may be I just don't see how there will be minutes for him this year. Too many talented and experienced players ahead of him. Might be best to redshirt.

As far as the talent on this team, remember when Wisconsin's starting backcourt consisted of Mark Burkemper and Mike Kohlsosharon (sp?)??? Good lord how things have changed!


---------------------------------------------
--- badgerwatcher wrote:

Happ is the big question.  Brown was getting attention at the end of last season.  Hopefully he will make the jump this year.  Bo will have a great bench to work with this year and will have more choice in subbing when required.  Nice problem to have.

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Posted: 7/12/2014 10:04 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


I saw something in Showalter that is special.  I would not be surprised that he will be a much improved player from two years ago.  Dukan's redshirt year definitely helped him.  I'm hoping the same is true of Showalter.
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Posted: 7/12/2014 10:41 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


What did you see?


---------------------------------------------
--- economan wrote:

I saw something in Showalter that is special.  I would not be surprised that he will be a much improved player from two years ago.  Dukan's redshirt year definitely helped him.  I'm hoping the same is true of Showalter.

---------------------------------------------
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  • Brumus
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Posted: 7/12/2014 11:02 AM

Re: The eighth slot 



dcamp wrote: It could end up as a seven man rotation this year even though there could be several young players worthy of being part of the rotation.  That said, if in fact we go with a traditional center, forward, forward, guard, guard lineup most or all of the time, numbers suggest that the eight man should be a fifth front court player (no real need for any guard besides Gasser, Jackson, and Koenig), so that probably means either Brown or Happ as the hypothetical eight man.  I am hoping Brown can follow a Nankivil-like track given that he played similar minutes to what Nankivil played as a freshman, i.e., about 45, but Happ could be a special talent, maybe as good as a freshman as Hayes was.  We'll need them both in 2015, but this year there may not be many minutes for either one.  Whichever one doesn't end up playing meaningful minutes this year might be well served to redshirt so we can have them as a star in their fifth year.  As a second year player, Nankivil averaged 14 minutes and 4.5 points per game, so maybe that is what Brown might be capable of if we weren't so deep this year?  As a freshman Hayes averaged 17 minutes and 7.7 points per game, so if that is what Happ might be capable of as a freshman, maybe the edge goes to him, although both should be good enough to play, maybe even pushing Dukan for the top front court reserve spot.  Just not a lot of minutes to go around in the front court this year behind two all-Americans and a budding star in Hayes.

Given that Bo likes to use 3 guards with some regularity, I'm not so sure that I agree w/you about not needing a 4th G.
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Posted: 7/12/2014 11:05 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


I think Showalter is being under-estimated here and will get playing time this season  Word last season was that he was making great strides in practice, really benefiting from the RS.  He also appears to have the personality to help fill the glue guy role left open by Brust's departure.  Not sure that any of the top 7 above have that.
economan wrote: I saw something in Showalter that is special.  I would not be surprised that he will be a much improved player from two years ago.  Dukan's redshirt year definitely helped him.  I'm hoping the same is true of Showalter.
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  • Brumus
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Posted: 7/12/2014 11:05 AM

Re: The eighth slot 



4badgerdenu4 wrote: Riley Dearing is a sniper.  Jordan Hill is a lock down defender.  If either of them has greatly improved the other aspects of their game, they both have the ability of getting some minutes.  Don't forget about Showalter either!

Thanks for the info about Dearing and Hill!  Bo loves good defensive players so Hill should get a few minutes vs. some of the top scoring guards we play.
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Posted: 7/12/2014 11:14 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


What did I see in Showalter.   Showalter had an aggressive way of playing.  He made things happen.  He looked for steals.  Wanted to take the ball to the basket hard.  and is a leaper.
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Posted: 7/12/2014 11:18 AM

Re: The eighth slot 


Vitto Brown is very clearly the "next man in" when looking at an 8 man rotation. I think another guard needs to show up and give us minutes. Obviously Koenig, Gasser and Jackson are going to get the lion's share of the minutes but there needs to be another guard worked in as well especially if there's foul trouble.

I'd be on Vitto Brown doubling his minutes at the very least from last year and then a guy like Hill or Showalter getting guard minutes
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Posted: 7/12/2014 11:35 AM

Re: The eighth slot 



Brumus wrote:
dcamp wrote: It could end up as a seven man rotation this year even though there could be several young players worthy of being part of the rotation.  That said, if in fact we go with a traditional center, forward, forward, guard, guard lineup most or all of the time, numbers suggest that the eight man should be a fifth front court player (no real need for any guard besides Gasser, Jackson, and Koenig), so that probably means either Brown or Happ as the hypothetical eight man.  I am hoping Brown can follow a Nankivil-like track given that he played similar minutes to what Nankivil played as a freshman, i.e., about 45, but Happ could be a special talent, maybe as good as a freshman as Hayes was.  We'll need them both in 2015, but this year there may not be many minutes for either one.  Whichever one doesn't end up playing meaningful minutes this year might be well served to redshirt so we can have them as a star in their fifth year.  As a second year player, Nankivil averaged 14 minutes and 4.5 points per game, so maybe that is what Brown might be capable of if we weren't so deep this year?  As a freshman Hayes averaged 17 minutes and 7.7 points per game, so if that is what Happ might be capable of as a freshman, maybe the edge goes to him, although both should be good enough to play, maybe even pushing Dukan for the top front court reserve spot.  Just not a lot of minutes to go around in the front court this year behind two all-Americans and a budding star in Hayes.

Given that Bo likes to use 3 guards with some regularity, I'm not so sure that I agree w/you about not needing a 4th G.
Above I said if we go with a traditional lineup.  In many other posts I have suggested that because this team will be 50% gaurds and 50% front court players, with it being almost a toss up between Hayes and Koenig for the open starting spot, we could end up playing three guards something like a third of the time this year, maybe even close to half the time.  If that is the case, it is currently wide open between Showalter, Hill, Dearring, Brown, and Happ for the eighth man spot.  A case can be made for each one.  They are all currently in a state of flux.  With so many players competing for the eight spot, and with six 25-35 minute per game players eating up most of the minutes, we may not have a single eight man who plays ten minutes games this year, even though several may be deserving of 10+ minutes per game.  Since we don't know how much each player is improving, it is kind of pointless to speculate about who will be the best four months from now.  We only saw the five of them for a total of about 70 minutes last year, three of them no minutes at all. 

Hayes and Dukan were both pleasant surprises last year.  At this point, we don't know who will be a surprise this year.  Will Showalter make a Dukan-like redshirt year jump?  Will Hill make a Brust-like sophomore year jump?  Will Dearring play significant minutes like Marshall did as a redshirt freshman?  Will Brown make a Nankivil-like sophomore year jump.  Will Happ have a Hayes-like freshman year?  Any of these things are possible, but all are unlikely given how many minutes the top seven players will eat up.  Ryan's teams have always been upperclassman dominated, and this year we have a large senior class, a very talented junior, and two very talented sophomores to eat up most of the minutes.  The freshman and the other sophomores may have to wait another year, but their day will come. We may lose four starters after this year.

Last edited 7/12/2014 11:52 AM by dcamp

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Posted: 7/12/2014 11:39 AM

Re: The eighth slot 



BigTenwatcher wrote: Vitto Brown is very clearly the "next man in" when looking at an 8 man rotation. I think another guard needs to show up and give us minutes. Obviously Koenig, Gasser and Jackson are going to get the lion's share of the minutes but there needs to be another guard worked in as well especially if there's foul trouble.

I'd be on Vitto Brown doubling his minutes at the very least from last year and then a guy like Hill or Showalter getting guard minutes
I question how clear that is. Why do you think this?
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Posted: 7/12/2014 12:00 PM

Re: The eighth slot 



janderson182 wrote: As good as it sounds like Happ may be I just don't see how there will be minutes for him this year. Too many talented and experienced players ahead of him. Might be best to redshirt.


I like to think like a general manager.  Without having seen Happ, I have only read about him, I can only guess that he might be better than Brown this year, not because Brown won't be improved, but because Happ might simply be a very good addition, maybe like Hayes last year.  If that is the case, we don't need Brown this year.  We could use him as a fifth year senior starter three years down the road (it would great to have both Happ and Brown as senior starters in 2017.)  If either Happ or Brown were to redshirt, I'd rather it be Brown, partly because Happ might be the better player this year, and partly to balance out classes.  If Happ were the one to redshirt, we'd end up with a very large 2013 class, what will probably be a very large 2015 class, and only Dearring in between.

Last edited 7/12/2014 12:01 PM by dcamp

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  • panama74
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Posted: 7/12/2014 3:48 PM

Re: The eighth slot 



SkannerDan wrote: What did you see?


---------------------------------------------
--- economan wrote:

I saw something in Showalter that is special.  I would not be surprised that he will be a much improved player from two years ago.  Dukan's redshirt year definitely helped him.  I'm hoping the same is true of Showalter.

---------------------------------------------
Rim touches
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Posted: 7/12/2014 4:11 PM

Re: The eighth slot 



dcamp wrote:
janderson182 wrote: As good as it sounds like Happ may be I just don't see how there will be minutes for him this year. Too many talented and experienced players ahead of him. Might be best to redshirt.


I like to think like a general manager.  Without having seen Happ, I have only read about him, I can only guess that he might be better than Brown this year, not because Brown won't be improved, but because Happ might simply be a very good addition, maybe like Hayes last year.  If that is the case, we don't need Brown this year.  We could use him as a fifth year senior starter three years down the road (it would great to have both Happ and Brown as senior starters in 2017.)  If either Happ or Brown were to redshirt, I'd rather it be Brown, partly because Happ might be the better player this year, and partly to balance out classes.  If Happ were the one to redshirt, we'd end up with a very large 2013 class, what will probably be a very large 2015 class, and only Dearring in between.
good point!

You have added another dimension to the discussion. I think most posts have been organized around 'who has the most talent' divided into bigs and littles. Hard for me to judge much of this because I have mostly seen the top 7 guys. Someone who goes to practices could say that player A is better than player B, but I can't.

You have added class management/team balance to the puzzle.

Someone else might take another tack and say that match ups will dictate whether the 8th man is a big or little, as in the couple of games last year where Vito practiced with the starters because it was thought the other team might wear out/foul out our guys.

Fun to speculate. I am going to fall into the Happ corner based on his performance in that international tournament. He looks awfully talented. I am going to give him some of Gasser's minutes.biggrin
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