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Widening the talent gap

Posted: 7/3/2014 7:31 AM

Widening the talent gap 


tOSU put some more distance between themselves and everyone else yesterday with the commitments of both Justin Hilliard (LB, OH) and Jashon Cornell (DL, MN).

The top WR in IL, Miles Boykin who was a Badger target also made his commitment elsewhere last night.
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  • packa
  • Walk-On
  • 157 posts this site

Posted: 7/3/2014 8:12 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


I believe we were also recruiting the DL guy from MN.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 8:32 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 





---------------------------------------------
--- packa wrote:

I believe we were also recruiting the DL guy from MN.

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Yea, I don't think we were ever really seriously considered by Cornell though, from what I have heard.

As far as "widening the gap", I'd actually call it more "status quo".
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Posted: 7/3/2014 9:06 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


The status quo  mentioned by another writer is true. Ohio State gets almost anyone they want.
Cornell was so high on the Badgers for a long tie, when he was first a 4-star.It looked like another young man from his school might come here, too, for this class (Johnson, I think?). When he didn't and with the incessant voices of the "sirens of past successes", he traveled the road to Columbus.
I think he would have stood out more at Wisconsin. Though look at Joey (?) Bosa, who the Badgers were high on a couple of years ago, now one of the best DE in the Big Ten.
But we will develop someone. We got good guys coming in and Obasih and James are hungry!
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Posted: 7/3/2014 9:21 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


They actually struggled early in this class and lost more than a few players they wanted, even ones from Ohio (Crawford & E. Taylor). I would go as far as to say they struggled with their top OL targets since Meyer arrived. But yesterday was a big step in recovering w/ their '15 class.
agaperev wrote: The status quo  mentioned by another writer is true. Ohio State gets almost anyone they want.

Last edited 7/3/2014 9:22 AM by vmithiel

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Posted: 7/3/2014 12:27 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



vmithiel wrote: tOSU put some more distance between themselves and everyone else yesterday with the commitments of both Justin Hilliard (LB, OH) and Jashon Cornell (DL, MN).

The top WR in IL, Miles Boykin who was a Badger target also made his commitment elsewhere last night.

I presume that you are including the Badgers among the "everyone else" in your post.  I really can't agree with that assessment because IMO for the past two years the Badgers were very competitive in the games played between the two teams and should have won the games if they had anything better than mediocre play from the qb position.  Other than that position in my view the Badgers will again be about as good as they were last season.

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Posted: 7/3/2014 3:24 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 





---------------------------------------------
--- CloudsOfDust wrote:




---------------------------------------------
--- packa wrote:

I believe we were also recruiting the DL guy from MN.

---------------------------------------------

Yea, I don't think we were ever really seriously considered by Cornell though, from what I have heard.

As far as "widening the gap", I'd actually call it more "status quo".

---------------------------------------------

Agree, OSU consistently pulls in very good recruiting classes, so this is nothing new. It just shows that UW's recruiting, while improving, needs to continue to improve, a lot.
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Posted: 7/3/2014 3:31 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



agaperev wrote: The status quo  mentioned by another writer is true. Ohio State gets almost anyone they want.
Cornell was so high on the Badgers for a long tie, when he was first a 4-star.It looked like another young man from his school might come here, too, for this class (Johnson, I think?). When he didn't and with the incessant voices of the "sirens of past successes", he traveled the road to Columbus.
I think he would have stood out more at Wisconsin. Though look at Joey (?) Bosa, who the Badgers were high on a couple of years ago, now one of the best DE in the Big Ten.
But we will develop someone. We got good guys coming in and Obasih and James are hungry!
Plus a couple of guys from Brookfield East and West aren't ever going to get the hype a guy out of Aquinas in Ft Lauderdale will.  Remember Tom Burke?  It was like, "Who the hell is he?"
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Posted: 7/3/2014 9:28 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


Stave doesn't play safety!
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Posted: 7/4/2014 8:46 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 





---------------------------------------------
--- rmh924 wrote:


agaperev wrote: The status quo  mentioned by another writer is true. Ohio State gets almost anyone they want.
Cornell was so high on the Badgers for a long tie, when he was first a 4-star.It looked like another young man from his school might come here, too, for this class (Johnson, I think?). When he didn't and with the incessant voices of the "sirens of past successes", he traveled the road to Columbus.
I think he would have stood out more at Wisconsin. Though look at Joey (?) Bosa, who the Badgers were high on a couple of years ago, now one of the best DE in the Big Ten.
But we will develop someone. We got good guys coming in and Obasih and James are hungry!
Plus a couple of guys from Brookfield East and West aren't ever going to get the hype a guy out of Aquinas in Ft Lauderdale will.  Remember Tom Burke?  It was like, "Who the hell is he?"

---------------------------------------------

I can promise you the hype for a player out of Brookfield West will be completely nonexistent
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Posted: 7/5/2014 11:40 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



scoot55 wrote: Stave doesn't play safety!
+1  Seems to me that Russell Wilson didn't play safety either when UW's secondary pissed away a game that they had won.  QB play wasn't the reason we lost those 2 games in Columbus.
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Posted: 7/5/2014 11:43 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



D3Badger wrote:


---------------------------------------------
--- rmh924 wrote:


agaperev wrote: The status quo  mentioned by another writer is true. Ohio State gets almost anyone they want.
Cornell was so high on the Badgers for a long tie, when he was first a 4-star.It looked like another young man from his school might come here, too, for this class (Johnson, I think?). When he didn't and with the incessant voices of the "sirens of past successes", he traveled the road to Columbus.
I think he would have stood out more at Wisconsin. Though look at Joey (?) Bosa, who the Badgers were high on a couple of years ago, now one of the best DE in the Big Ten.
But we will develop someone. We got good guys coming in and Obasih and James are hungry!
Plus a couple of guys from Brookfield East and West aren't ever going to get the hype a guy out of Aquinas in Ft Lauderdale will.  Remember Tom Burke?  It was like, "Who the hell is he?"

---------------------------------------------

I can promise you the hype for a player out of Brookfield West will be completely nonexistent
Sorry. Wasn't thinking.  Brookfield CENTRAL.
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Posted: 7/5/2014 5:57 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


Not in Columbus.

But it certainly was a problem vs. ASU, Penn St, and SCar.


---------------------------------------------
--- rmh924 wrote:


scoot55 wrote: Stave doesn't play safety!
+1  Seems to me that Russell Wilson didn't play safety either when UW's secondary pissed away a game that they had won.  QB play wasn't the reason we lost those 2 games in Columbus.

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Posted: 7/5/2014 10:06 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


Defense was the problem. 30 + points given up in all 4 losses. Better QB play allows us to win despite mediocre pass defense.
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Posted: 7/6/2014 11:43 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



QB play was definitely a problem, but defensive short-comings AND QB play held us back in those three losses. OSU of course was the exception where Stave played well and we were outgunned on D. UW needs to improve on both sides of he ball.

---------------------------------------------
--- Ph3431 wrote:

Not in Columbus.

But it certainly was a problem vs. ASU, Penn St, and SCar.


---------------------------------------------
--- rmh924 wrote:


scoot55 wrote: Stave doesn't play safety!
+1  Seems to me that Russell Wilson didn't play safety either when UW's secondary pissed away a game that they had won.  QB play wasn't the reason we lost those 2 games in Columbus.

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  • travrest
  • Freshman
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Posted: 7/6/2014 5:15 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


A Minnesota kid (four stars) that forsakes the home state team (as well as others such as Wisconsin) to go to Ohio State, makes me sick. Yes, Minnesota is in our division. Yes, they are our rivals. No, we don't want them to get a whole lot better. But what the hey? Forsake your own in-state school to go to another BIG TEN team because their name is Ohio State? I don't respect that. Its beyond sickening.

If the kid didn't come here, and didn't want to stay home, then why they heck not Purdue, or Illinois, or Northwestern?  The rich get richer in college football and basketball, and it is just plain sickening.

So, go to Ohio State, all you great players. In this particular case, I hope Minny whips your behind when you play them.
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Posted: 7/6/2014 5:31 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



So...you think no kids should ever play for an out of state school? Unless that OOS school is UW? Seems totally fair.


---------------------------------------------
--- travrest wrote:

A Minnesota kid (four stars) that forsakes the home state team (as well as others such as Wisconsin) to go to Ohio State, makes me sick. Yes, Minnesota is in our division. Yes, they are our rivals. No, we don't want them to get a whole lot better. But what the hey? Forsake your own in-state school to go to another BIG TEN team because their name is Ohio State? I don't respect that. Its beyond sickening.

If the kid didn't come here, and didn't want to stay home, then why they heck not Purdue, or Illinois, or Northwestern?  The rich get richer in college football and basketball, and it is just plain sickening.

So, go to Ohio State, all you great players. In this particular case, I hope Minny whips your behind when you play them.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 7/6/2014 6:09 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



weballin wrote:
So...you think no kids should ever play for an out of state school? Unless that OOS school is UW? Seems totally fair.


---------------------------------------------
--- travrest wrote:

A Minnesota kid (four stars) that forsakes the home state team (as well as others such as Wisconsin) to go to Ohio State, makes me sick. Yes, Minnesota is in our division. Yes, they are our rivals. No, we don't want them to get a whole lot better. But what the hey? Forsake your own in-state school to go to another BIG TEN team because their name is Ohio State? I don't respect that. Its beyond sickening.

If the kid didn't come here, and didn't want to stay home, then why they heck not Purdue, or Illinois, or Northwestern?  The rich get richer in college football and basketball, and it is just plain sickening.

So, go to Ohio State, all you great players. In this particular case, I hope Minny whips your behind when you play them.

---------------------------------------------
You miss the point weballin, as usual good old Travrest is on to something here.  Of course it will probably be tough for him to cheer for Illinois against Wisconsin these next three years but I'm sure for consistency's sake he will manage.

I mean, a kid like David Edwards, four stars out of Illinois turns down the home state team to go with a program that has won three out of the last four Big Ten championships, has a history of placing TE's in the NFL and already has an top 20 TE commit in the same class?  Beyond sickening right Travrest?  The rich just keep getting richer.  I mean if the kid wasn't going to go to an Illinois program that really really wanted and needed him he certainly could have gone to Indiana or Iowa, two programs who have nowhere near the recent success of a place like Wisconsin.  

I know it will be tough picking up that Blue and Orange gear to wear the next few years Travrest but I know that someone who can frame an argument the way you do will certainly see that it is now beyond your line of reasoning to continue to cheer for the Badgers.

Last edited 7/6/2014 6:14 PM by D3Badger

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Posted: 7/6/2014 6:09 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


lol...oh boy.

travrest wrote: A Minnesota kid (four stars) that forsakes the home state team (as well as others such as Wisconsin) to go to Ohio State, makes me sick. Yes, Minnesota is in our division. Yes, they are our rivals. No, we don't want them to get a whole lot better. But what the hey? Forsake your own in-state school to go to another BIG TEN team because their name is Ohio State? I don't respect that. Its beyond sickening.

If the kid didn't come here, and didn't want to stay home, then why they heck not Purdue, or Illinois, or Northwestern?  The rich get richer in college football and basketball, and it is just plain sickening.

So, go to Ohio State, all you great players. In this particular case, I hope Minny whips your behind when you play them.
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  • travrest
  • Freshman
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Posted: 7/7/2014 7:00 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


As I said, if a Minnesota kid didn't want to stay home, then why not go to an Illinois or Purdue? If a Wisconsin kid wants to go elsewhere, then why not a Minnesota or Iowa? Not that I'd be happy about it. But spred the wealth around.

Likewise, if an Ilinois kid wants to come to Wisconsin, if I were an Illinois fan, I wouldn't be happy about it either. But at least it wouldn't be another one going to Michigan or Alabama.

That would at least be a level playing field. All too often we see the top kids going to the big two in the conference. When the most talent in the conference is stockpiled at just two schools for decades and decades, it does get sickening.

Want to bet which teams will be pretty good ten and fifteen years from now, or at least will have recruited the best players? I'm betting on the same old, same old- Ohio State and Michigan. And yes, I know the reasons for it.

But I was speaking of a highly regarded Minnesota kid, which are fairly rare, going to play at a school that already has many more times the in state talent that Minnesota has. They have all the advantages in the world compared to Minnesota. But no. He can't stay home, or go to Indiana or Iowa. Gotta go to O$U.
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Posted: 7/7/2014 7:08 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 





---------------------------------------------
--- travrest wrote:

As I said, if a Minnesota kid didn't want to stay home, then why not go to an Illinois or Purdue? If a Wisconsin kid wants to go elsewhere, then why not a Minnesota or Iowa? Not that I'd be happy about it. But spred the wealth around.

Likewise, if an Ilinois kid wants to come to Wisconsin, if I were an Illinois fan, I wouldn't be happy about it either. But at least it wouldn't be another one going to Michigan or Alabama.

That would at least be a level playing field. All too often we see the top kids going to the big two in the conference. When the most talent in the conference is stockpiled at just two schools for decades and decades, it does get sickening.

Want to bet which teams will be pretty good ten and fifteen years from now, or at least will have recruited the best players? I'm betting on the same old, same old- Ohio State and Michigan. And yes, I know the reasons for it.

But I was speaking of a highly regarded Minnesota kid, which are fairly rare, going to play at a school that already has many more times the in state talent that Minnesota has. They have all the advantages in the world compared to Minnesota. But no. He can't stay home, or go to Indiana or Iowa. Gotta go to O$U.

---------------------------------------------

The horror! How dare an elite player go to the Big Ten school with the best chance at a National Championship! SICKENING!
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Posted: 7/7/2014 7:43 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



travrest wrote: As I said, if a Minnesota kid didn't want to stay home, then why not go to an Illinois or Purdue? If a Wisconsin kid wants to go elsewhere, then why not a Minnesota or Iowa? Not that I'd be happy about it. But spred the wealth around.

Likewise, if an Ilinois kid wants to come to Wisconsin, if I were an Illinois fan, I wouldn't be happy about it either. But at least it wouldn't be another one going to Michigan or Alabama.

That would at least be a level playing field. All too often we see the top kids going to the big two in the conference. When the most talent in the conference is stockpiled at just two schools for decades and decades, it does get sickening.

Want to bet which teams will be pretty good ten and fifteen years from now, or at least will have recruited the best players? I'm betting on the same old, same old- Ohio State and Michigan. And yes, I know the reasons for it.

But I was speaking of a highly regarded Minnesota kid, which are fairly rare, going to play at a school that already has many more times the in state talent that Minnesota has. They have all the advantages in the world compared to Minnesota. But no. He can't stay home, or go to Indiana or Iowa. Gotta go to O$U.

You must have hated Russell Wilson transferring to a top 10 program that was coming off a Rose Bowl appearance when so many teams closer to home "needed" him so much more.  The Kafentzis situation must have you seeing red scorning several home state schools along with countless programs in the west who need him far more than one of the true Big Ten powers could  

So as long as they go to schools you deem as acceptable then it's ok for them to go out of state?  Level the playing field?   The more you try to rationalize the less sense you make.  Please try to explain why it is ok for a highly regarded kid from Illinois to go to Wisconsin (who has all the advantages in the world compared to Illinois) rather than stay home or go to Indiana or Iowa but it's not ok for a highly ranked kid from Minnesota to go to OSU?  

Should players be limited to only schools that boarder on the home state?   Schools that have won only a certain percentage more games than their home state school?  The crybaby mantra of it's not fair, we have to level the playing field is silly.  You do realize that Wisconsin has a far better record than one of the two schools that you keep referencing over the past decade without do gooders like you trying to find ways to make it right for everyone?  Perhaps they should just stop keeping score.  Then they could all be winners.

Last edited 7/7/2014 7:51 AM by D3Badger

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Posted: 7/7/2014 8:16 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



vmithiel wrote: tOSU put some more distance between themselves and everyone else yesterday with the commitments of both Justin Hilliard (LB, OH) and Jashon Cornell (DL, MN).

The top WR in IL, Miles Boykin who was a Badger target also made his commitment elsewhere last night.
You don't say? Meanwhile we got a bunch of under-the-radar guys .
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Posted: 7/7/2014 9:52 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



travrest wrote: As I said, if a Minnesota kid didn't want to stay home, then why not go to an Illinois or Purdue? If a Wisconsin kid wants to go elsewhere, then why not a Minnesota or Iowa? Not that I'd be happy about it. But spred the wealth around.

Likewise, if an Ilinois kid wants to come to Wisconsin, if I were an Illinois fan, I wouldn't be happy about it either. But at least it wouldn't be another one going to Michigan or Alabama.

That would at least be a level playing field. All too often we see the top kids going to the big two in the conference. When the most talent in the conference is stockpiled at just two schools for decades and decades, it does get sickening.

Want to bet which teams will be pretty good ten and fifteen years from now, or at least will have recruited the best players? I'm betting on the same old, same old- Ohio State and Michigan. And yes, I know the reasons for it.

But I was speaking of a highly regarded Minnesota kid, which are fairly rare, going to play at a school that already has many more times the in state talent that Minnesota has. They have all the advantages in the world compared to Minnesota. But no. He can't stay home, or go to Indiana or Iowa. Gotta go to O$U.
I guess this is what the culture of "everyone gets a participation trophy" gets you.

"Players make plays, players win games."

Gary Andersen

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  • travrest
  • Freshman
  • 1593 posts this site

Posted: 7/8/2014 6:35 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



sudsmcbucky wrote:
travrest wrote: As I said, if a Minnesota kid didn't want to stay home, then why not go to an Illinois or Purdue? If a Wisconsin kid wants to go elsewhere, then why not a Minnesota or Iowa? Not that I'd be happy about it. But spred the wealth around.

Likewise, if an Ilinois kid wants to come to Wisconsin, if I were an Illinois fan, I wouldn't be happy about it either. But at least it wouldn't be another one going to Michigan or Alabama.

That would at least be a level playing field. All too often we see the top kids going to the big two in the conference. When the most talent in the conference is stockpiled at just two schools for decades and decades, it does get sickening.

Want to bet which teams will be pretty good ten and fifteen years from now, or at least will have recruited the best players? I'm betting on the same old, same old- Ohio State and Michigan. And yes, I know the reasons for it.

But I was speaking of a highly regarded Minnesota kid, which are fairly rare, going to play at a school that already has many more times the in state talent that Minnesota has. They have all the advantages in the world compared to Minnesota. But no. He can't stay home, or go to Indiana or Iowa. Gotta go to O$U.
I guess this is what the culture of "everyone gets a participation trophy" gets you.

I'm not  at all a "participation trophy" guy.  But if you are a pro football fan, don't you see some glimmer of hope when the draft comes around, and you had a team with an awful record? Sure- you'll get a couple really good players out of it. In the NFL the worst teams get the best picks. In college, the best players like to chose the best teams. There's turn around and changing of the guard. I'm not blaming every individual decision. I just wish more kids would pick some of the other teams. And I wish these other teams would hire coaches who could recruit with the Urban Meyers.

Sorry, but for an elite player in a conference state to go hundreds of miles away (passing up , Wisconsin, Northwestern, Purdue etc on his way)  so that he can play for the team that has the best chance of winning all the time, is, to me, a bit sickening. I'd rather see him be a pioneer at Minnesota or Purdue than to play in Columbus.

And no, Wisconsin has few advantages on anyone. Illinois has much more talent in state. All rivals have better practice fields, and some have better overall facilities. Wisconsin has won recently, but as you notice, it hasn't helped all that much in recruiting, and probably won't  for decades.
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Posted: 7/8/2014 6:52 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



travrest wrote:

Sorry, but for an elite player in a conference state to go hundreds of miles away (passing up , Wisconsin, Northwestern, Purdue etc on his way)  so that he can play for the team that has the best chance of winning all the time, is, to me, a bit sickening. I'd rather see him be a pioneer at Minnesota or Purdue than to play in Columbus.


Wanting to give yourself the best chance to succeed is "sickening"?  

I hope the only jobs you've ever had have been with small businesses and/or start ups.  If you work for a large company, then I find that "sickening"!  

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Posted: 7/9/2014 6:36 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



vmithiel wrote: tOSU put some more distance between themselves and everyone else yesterday with the commitments of both Justin Hilliard (LB, OH) and Jashon Cornell (DL, MN).

The top WR in IL, Miles Boykin who was a Badger target also made his commitment elsewhere last night.
Um, yeeeeaaaaah.

Speak for yourself bro. I know a squad and a Coach that could care less about their silly star ratings.

Since you obviously missed this past year (and the previous five or so), pay attention come September 6th, it will be very clear as to who i'm referring to.
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Posted: 7/9/2014 7:09 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 



BubbleSparty13 wrote:
vmithiel wrote: tOSU put some more distance between themselves and everyone else yesterday with the commitments of both Justin Hilliard (LB, OH) and Jashon Cornell (DL, MN).

The top WR in IL, Miles Boykin who was a Badger target also made his commitment elsewhere last night.
Um, yeeeeaaaaah.

Speak for yourself bro. I know a squad and a Coach that could care less about their silly star ratings.

Since you obviously missed this past year (and the previous five or so), pay attention come September 6th, it will be very clear as to who i'm referring to.
Purdue!
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Posted: 7/9/2014 7:51 PM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


'Sickening?' Wow. I'm speechless.


---------------------------------------------
--- travrest wrote:


sudsmcbucky wrote:
travrest wrote: As I said, if a Minnesota kid didn't want to stay home, then why not go to an Illinois or Purdue? If a Wisconsin kid wants to go elsewhere, then why not a Minnesota or Iowa? Not that I'd be happy about it. But spred the wealth around.

Likewise, if an Ilinois kid wants to come to Wisconsin, if I were an Illinois fan, I wouldn't be happy about it either. But at least it wouldn't be another one going to Michigan or Alabama.

That would at least be a level playing field. All too often we see the top kids going to the big two in the conference. When the most talent in the conference is stockpiled at just two schools for decades and decades, it does get sickening.

Want to bet which teams will be pretty good ten and fifteen years from now, or at least will have recruited the best players? I'm betting on the same old, same old- Ohio State and Michigan. And yes, I know the reasons for it.

But I was speaking of a highly regarded Minnesota kid, which are fairly rare, going to play at a school that already has many more times the in state talent that Minnesota has. They have all the advantages in the world compared to Minnesota. But no. He can't stay home, or go to Indiana or Iowa. Gotta go to O$U.
I guess this is what the culture of "everyone gets a participation trophy" gets you.

I'm not  at all a "participation trophy" guy.  But if you are a pro football fan, don't you see some glimmer of hope when the draft comes around, and you had a team with an awful record? Sure- you'll get a couple really good players out of it. In the NFL the worst teams get the best picks. In college, the best players like to chose the best teams. There's turn around and changing of the guard. I'm not blaming every individual decision. I just wish more kids would pick some of the other teams. And I wish these other teams would hire coaches who could recruit with the Urban Meyers.

Sorry, but for an elite player in a conference state to go hundreds of miles away (passing up , Wisconsin, Northwestern, Purdue etc on his way)  so that he can play for the team that has the best chance of winning all the time, is, to me, a bit sickening. I'd rather see him be a pioneer at Minnesota or Purdue than to play in Columbus.

And no, Wisconsin has few advantages on anyone. Illinois has much more talent in state. All rivals have better practice fields, and some have better overall facilities. Wisconsin has won recently, but as you notice, it hasn't helped all that much in recruiting, and probably won't  for decades.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 7/10/2014 9:37 AM

Re: Widening the talent gap 


Ummm, yeaaah, cool bro. So what was it like to receive a rejection letter from Michigan?
BubbleSparty13 wrote:
vmithiel wrote: tOSU put some more distance between themselves and everyone else yesterday with the commitments of both Justin Hilliard (LB, OH) and Jashon Cornell (DL, MN).

The top WR in IL, Miles Boykin who was a Badger target also made his commitment elsewhere last night.
Um, yeeeeaaaaah.

Speak for yourself bro. I know a squad and a Coach that could care less about their silly star ratings.

Since you obviously missed this past year (and the previous five or so), pay attention come September 6th, it will be very clear as to who i'm referring to.
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