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A recruiting Reality Check....

Posted: 2/3/2013 10:05 AM

A recruiting Reality Check.... 


I looked at the Parade top rated players....

We were in on one or two of them...Thats it out of 50+ guys.

Collins isn't listed either. 

It just reminds me that when we are talking recruiting, the SEC and OSU are on a different plane that we are. (Not a surprise to many of you)

We need really good coaches who develop talent. BA and BB did that with their staffs...based on a small sample GA seems to have done that as well.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 10:36 AM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Without question, UW has to be a developmental program if it's going to be successful.  One of the biggest reasons the Badgers have been so successful is the stability in the program.  Bielema was essentially an extension of BA...we've had the same program for 20+ years.  We've been the most stable program in the conference up until the last year.

I like the GA hire because I see him and his staff building on that.  This is a destination job for him, the coaches are talking about 'putting down roots.'  It will obviously depend on success...but GA could be here for 15-years and really put his mark on the program.  
pilprin wrote: I looked at the Parade top rated players....

We were in on one or two of them...Thats it out of 50+ guys.

Collins isn't listed either. 

It just reminds me that when we are talking recruiting, the SEC and OSU are on a different plane that we are. (Not a surprise to many of you)

We need really good coaches who develop talent. BA and BB did that with their staffs...based on a small sample GA seems to have done that as well.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 10:48 AM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 



Ph3431 wrote: Without question, UW has to be a developmental program if it's going to be successful.  One of the biggest reasons the Badgers have been so successful is the stability in the program.  Bielema was essentially an extension of BA...we've had the same program for 20+ years.  We've been the most stable program in the conference up until the last year.

I like the GA hire because I see him and his staff building on that.  This is a destination job for him, the coaches are talking about 'putting down roots.'  It will obviously depend on success...but GA could be here for 15-years and really put his mark on the program.  
pilprin wrote: I looked at the Parade top rated players....

We were in on one or two of them...Thats it out of 50+ guys.

Collins isn't listed either. 

It just reminds me that when we are talking recruiting, the SEC and OSU are on a different plane that we are. (Not a surprise to many of you)

We need really good coaches who develop talent. BA and BB did that with their staffs...based on a small sample GA seems to have done that as well.
"putting down roots".  Yea, until the assistants all move on to head coaching or coordinator positions at another school.  rolleyes
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:25 PM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Andersen doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would up and leave after 3 years.

I think he sees a fit here for himself personally and the kind of kids he relates well with and wants to coach.

Hopefully he is successful and here for a decade or so.

Recruiting? We are not even in the same ball park as those SEC programs, OSU, Mich, USC. Not even within a country mile. Winning where we are located is so much tougher than at those schools. We have to take the long term kid that projects to start in jr senior years after 3 years in the program. Those schools get more top talent that can start right away. Now with that top talent does come issues as well. Its a give and take. Hopefully Andersen knows how to toe the line with talent and how to build a program.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:48 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


I think Ph3431 is pretty much on the money again!

Last edited 2/3/2013 12:48 PM by 5centcorner

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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:48 PM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Not all coaches are built that way. Time will tell. Ludwig talked about UW being a long-term fit for him (after bouncing around). Aranda already had passed on a bigger job (Cal and Texas Tech) to remain with GA. Busch also talked about UW being a destination and being here a long time.

Just talk for now, but prior to the last 14 months, UW had been pretty stable.
---------------------------------------------
--- falicy3 wrote:


Ph3431 wrote: Without question, UW has to be a developmental program if it's going to be successful.  One of the biggest reasons the Badgers have been so successful is the stability in the program.  Bielema was essentially an extension of BA...we've had the same program for 20+ years.  We've been the most stable program in the conference up until the last year.

I like the GA hire because I see him and his staff building on that.  This is a destination job for him, the coaches are talking about 'putting down roots.'  It will obviously depend on success...but GA could be here for 15-years and really put his mark on the program.  
pilprin wrote: I looked at the Parade top rated players....

We were in on one or two of them...Thats it out of 50+ guys.

Collins isn't listed either. 

It just reminds me that when we are talking recruiting, the SEC and OSU are on a different plane that we are. (Not a surprise to many of you)

We need really good coaches who develop talent. BA and BB did that with their staffs...based on a small sample GA seems to have done that as well.
"putting down roots".  Yea, until the assistants all move on to head coaching or coordinator positions at another school.  rolleyes

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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:49 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


I remember many of these same comments being made about BB. How did that turn out? Truth be told, all college football coaches are very much a mixed bag. Andersen is making a good start but let's not get carried away with long-term stability in the current environment of ballooning media revenue increasingly ending up in the pockets of coaching staffs.

Being solely a developmental program going forward is fine if you want to tread water and expect the competitive environment to remain stable, similar to the past 5 years. There is no doubt that It worked on many levels. I question whether that is a realistic goal at this point and whether we'll be satisfied with a declining W/L record (remember that 2012/13 record?) and the once-a-decade title run which that implies. Wisconsin needs to up the return on recruiting or be satisfied with being more Iowa-like and less OSU-like.

Last edited 2/3/2013 12:53 PM by TheNewRed

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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:55 PM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Like I tell many of my friends, there is no parity in college football.

The recruits that Badger fans get excited to be in the top 5 or get to come visit and the recruits that actually sign and make fans ecstatic are not even wanted by many of the top schools as they do not think they are good enough.

Some programs get more 4 star and 5 star players every year than the Badgers get in over 10 years.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:58 PM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 



pilprin wrote: I looked at the Parade top rated players....

We were in on one or two of them...Thats it out of 50+ guys.

Collins isn't listed either. 

It just reminds me that when we are talking recruiting, the SEC and OSU are on a different plane that we are. (Not a surprise to many of you)

We need really good coaches who develop talent. BA and BB did that with their staffs...based on a small sample GA seems to have done that as well.
I felt we should of and could have done bettter after going to back to back Rose Bowls. Never been overly impressed with BB as a recruiter. 2014 does look promising and I really like GA, and I believe we will see an improvement in the talent that he will attract. He just seems more real to me.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:02 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Those comments about BB were based solely on the fact that he was hand-picked by BA for a position that many weren't sure he was qualified for. BB being in Madison long-term was based on a perceived loyalty to BA...not on his personality (because he was largely unknown).

As time went on, BBs personality certainly surfaced...and he was not well-liked by boosters and many fans. The more we learned about him, the less he seemed like a long-term fit (though, he had a good run).

We do know a lot more about GA...and he comes in as a far more mature coach and person than Bielema was.

---------------------------------------------
--- TheNewRed wrote:

I remember many of these same comments being made about BB. How did that turn out? Truth be told, all college football coaches are very much a mixed bag. Andersen is making a good start but let's not get carried away with long-term stability in the current environment of ballooning media revenue increasingly ending up in the pockets of coaching staffs.

Being solely a developmental program going forward is fine if you want to tread water and expect the competitive environment to remain stable, similar to the past 5 years. There is no doubt that It worked on many levels. I question whether that is a realistic goal at this point and whether we'll be satisfied with a declining W/L record (remember that 2012/13 record?) and the once-a-decade title run which that implies. Wisconsin needs to up the return on recruiting or be satisfied with being more Iowa-like and less OSU-like.

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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:06 PM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Who cares we are Wisconsin it's rosebowl or bust. Come to Madison have fun get better go to a great school. 

I mean you can get from Madison to LA in a Buick!

Do it by Formation.  11 on 11.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:07 PM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


I'm not so sure this is true. James could have picked Oregon...Clement could have gone to ND...Ohio St offered Keeler, Shelton was a one-time FSU commit. Oklahoma wanted Foreman.

Those schools might have more depth on their recruiting boards to replace these guys but they all were 'wanted' by top-notch schools.

---------------------------------------------
--- DocWrestling wrote:

Like I tell many of my friends, there is no parity in college football.

The recruits that Badger fans get excited to be in the top 5 or get to come visit and the recruits that actually sign and make fans ecstatic are not even wanted by many of the top schools as they do not think they are good enough.

Some programs get more 4 star and 5 star players every year than the Badgers get in over 10 years.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:08 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


When you say title run'...are you talking Big Ten or national title?

I'd be ecstatic with sniffing the NC once every 10 years...and battling for the conference title in most others.

---------------------------------------------
--- TheNewRed wrote:

I remember many of these same comments being made about BB. How did that turn out? Truth be told, all college football coaches are very much a mixed bag. Andersen is making a good start but let's not get carried away with long-term stability in the current environment of ballooning media revenue increasingly ending up in the pockets of coaching staffs.

Being solely a developmental program going forward is fine if you want to tread water and expect the competitive environment to remain stable, similar to the past 5 years. There is no doubt that It worked on many levels. I question whether that is a realistic goal at this point and whether we'll be satisfied with a declining W/L record (remember that 2012/13 record?) and the once-a-decade title run which that implies. Wisconsin needs to up the return on recruiting or be satisfied with being more Iowa-like and less OSU-like.

---------------------------------------------

Last edited 2/3/2013 1:19 PM by Ph3431

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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:15 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


NT

Last edited 2/4/2013 10:53 AM by 5centcorner

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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:51 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Most of the top wis kids would have offers from top programs but when they try to get wis kids(see tressel with clay and oglesby), they FAIL.  Recall the overhyped kid Iowa got from Kimbelry(hardy??), he allegedly got dominated at UW's camp and last time I checked, is buried on an awful Iowa teambored1

I think this is why wis can compete for the conference title at around 3.2 per player.  Elite programs are 3.5ish and most of the kids from wis stop getting upgraded when they verbal(BTW, OK is at around 3.3 per player right now)

Examples?

Ramesh is a four star player in Penn and Hubley is a four star player in ohio imo, James? he's EASILY  4-5 stars if he played in Texas.  I have not seen a more explosive kid on film from Wis since lance kendricks in terms of upside.

he is going to be a MONSTER.  this is a very good class as it includes many elite players at CB, TB, LB, DE etc

Last edited 2/3/2013 1:54 PM by buckyfever1

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Posted: 2/3/2013 2:17 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Let's also look at how many of those players actually pan out. How many are successful academically? How many flunk out, go JUCO, or D2-D3, and then luckily get drafted? How many of the underrated guys perform as well or better?

I think it's a two way street. Sure it looks nice on paper having these classes like OSU and BAMA and Texas and ND. But you have to combine it with NUMEROUS other things in order to get where OSU and BAMA get every year. And those teams honestly don't even do it every year. BAMA has been hot since hiring Saban, this is true. But every legend has a stretch run. This is Saban's. Bama and Saban have been extraordinarily lucky. Like, beyond lucky. They practice hard. Their tactics are ruthless. Their schedule is brutal. Their football offices are run like presidential offices. It's all they do there in Bama. Heck, what else IS there to do? Chew straw???

You have to put these amazing classes together with amazing other coincidences in order to be that successful. Just look at Bama this year. No title whatsoever if OSU doesn't have sanctions. No title whatsoever if they aren't as healthy as they were.


Now lets look at North Carolina from a couple years back. Excellent classes. Highly regarded prospects and LOIs. Heck they even got a better running back than James White from the same high school. But what happened? Sure, Gio will get drafted. But wtf else did they do? They had lame W/L records. Lame seasons. AND ended up in a controversial situation due to recruiting and whatever the heck else happened there. It was a train wreck.

Point being, just cuz you get these parade guys, doesn't necessarily mean you will have success. Success has so many intangibles.

As for whether or not we can get these parade guys to sign with WI, just look at Clemson and Ole Miss. Sure, there might be some fishy activity. But then again, innocent until proven guilty. And these two schools, Clemson from the god awful ACC, Ole Miss a bottom feeder, are recruiting really well and getting some parade guys.

I believe we can not only get the parade guys (eventually, give GA some time) but I believe we have the ideal setup to allow them to succeed. We ain't Bama, but we ain't UNC either. I like us right where we are. Do we want to be Bama? No, aside from the titles. Do we want to be OSU? Heccckkkkkkk nooooooo, aside from the 0 losses last year. Do we want to continue our traditions and take our shot at making a name on the College Football Landscape every so often? Sure, that's more than fine with me.


Led by coach Gary Andersen, it is mathematically impossible for the Wisconsin Badgers not to win a National Championship

-Albert Einstein
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Posted: 2/3/2013 2:50 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Look at the commit list...it is mostly 3 and 4 stars.

---------------------------------------------
--- sherrmann46 wrote:

If GA can improve on BBs recruiting of talent even somewhat then that will help this team out quite a bit down the road.  
   
    that being said,  i don't know why Wisconsin HAS TO BE  only a delopmental school and HAS TO BE  school that only can get most 3 and 2 star players with the occasional 4 star player thrown in and cant raise their recruiting abilities to that of 3 and 4 star types with the occasional 5 star talent thrown in!

   i hate this team "settles" and doesn't try to elevate the program as much as it can.

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Posted: 2/3/2013 3:39 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


They never rank UW recruits high, but look who we are going up against to get them. WE are fine and this is a good class.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 3:54 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


I don't expect to get all 4 and 5 star recruits, but what doesnt sit well with me is the fact we have just came off of 3 consecutive conference titles and Rose Bowls, produce a ton of NFL players........and we're offering 2 star talent who have no offers from any other major schools. I'm sorry, but we shouldnt need to resort to finding under the radar guys who may turn out to be "Diamonds in the Rough".

Also, the inability to retain our top recruits over the past couple years is a blow to the program.....Denman, Dodson, Foreman, Latham, possibly Marcus Ball. Possibly Evans from the 2014 class.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 4:32 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


It's slim pickings out there right now.  With the coaching change, there aren't a lot of 4 or 5 star kids just sitting out there waiting to be recruited by UW.  I think academics prevented a few JUCO DBs from landing here as well.

That said, Denman and Foreman seem to be coaching change casualties and Dodson and Latham stayed home.  It happens.

If GA and staff can bring stability, UW should still be able to capitalize on the success of the last few years.  The last two recruiting classes have been solid, and 2014 is off to a strong start as well.

I think the program is in great shape.
Bbaum wrote: I don't expect to get all 4 and 5 star recruits, but what doesnt sit well with me is the fact we have just came off of 3 consecutive conference titles and Rose Bowls, produce a ton of NFL players........and we're offering 2 star talent who have no offers from any other major schools. I'm sorry, but we shouldnt need to resort to finding under the radar guys who may turn out to be "Diamonds in the Rough".

Also, the inability to retain our top recruits over the past couple years is a blow to the program.....Denman, Dodson, Foreman, Latham, possibly Marcus Ball. Possibly Evans from the 2014 class.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 6:36 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


I hope that UW eventually will be able to lock up Northern Illinois like they have with Wisconsin.  If the new staff can do that their should be plenty of talent available.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 7:38 PM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 



Ph3431 wrote: Look at the commit list...it is mostly 3 and 4 stars.

---------------------------------------------
--- sherrmann46 wrote:

If GA can improve on BBs recruiting of talent even somewhat then that will help this team out quite a bit down the road.  
   
    that being said,  i don't know why Wisconsin HAS TO BE  only a delopmental school and HAS TO BE  school that only can get most 3 and 2 star players with the occasional 4 star player thrown in and cant raise their recruiting abilities to that of 3 and 4 star types with the occasional 5 star talent thrown in!

   i hate this team "settles" and doesn't try to elevate the program as much as it can.

---------------------------------------------
This is a little weird.  I backed up to check sherrmann46 original remarks for context.  I can't find it anywhere. Oh well.  The idea that this program has ever "settled" and doesn't do its best to elevate in any way it can is perfectly ridiculous.
Ecclesiastes 10:2

"It's easier to fool people, than it is to convince them they've been fooled."   Mark Twain
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Posted: 2/4/2013 6:44 AM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


This late in the game with a new staff, I don't mind at all some of the 2* guys they are offering.  I'd rather take a chance on a kid that flew under the radar but has lights out athleticism, ala Dez Southward, that has the potential to truly develop in a developmental program.  And these kids we're going after late have athleticism.  I'd love to land McEvoy.  He'd be icing on the cake in this class for me.

"Players make plays, players win games."

Gary Andersen

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Posted: 2/4/2013 9:31 AM

RE: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Lets not forget, Tressel, despite many b10 titles, lost an OVERWHELMING  number of battles for non Ohio kids. For every shugarts, he lost 5ish Fred Davis types to ND, Michy, USC, texas etc and just 2ish years ago, lost an in state 5 star LB to texas.

Key?  he could get plan B's who were in state four star kids begging for an offer(can you imagine having talent like konz, Ramesh, landish begging for a UW offer late)? 

See Dodson................ reason OSu, along with LSu has the biggest edge of any traditional power. tons of in state talent and has any kid chosen a cincy/tulane over an OSu or LSU?rolleyes

BTW, dodson made the right move as he sits at UW for a long time as RH, lewallen, Walker williams will have this job from 2014-18.

Denman and latham were big misses yet I think Sheehy has latham like abilites, albeit a year later

OL? even if Rh moves to LT, Lewallen may have the highest upside of any OL we have had in the wings since Carimi was waiting for JT to move on. nasty dude who moves very well.

can play inside or outside.  I see him at RT when RH moves to LT. Groy to OC with Costigan and Matthias at OG. matthias is smart and knows how to play given his skill set.  Ball will be all over him by late fall too.
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Posted: 2/4/2013 9:47 AM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 



Ph3431 wrote: Without question, UW has to be a developmental program if it's going to be successful.  One of the biggest reasons the Badgers have been so successful is the stability in the program.  Bielema was essentially an extension of BA...we've had the same program for 20+ years.  We've been the most stable program in the conference up until the last year.

I like the GA hire because I see him and his staff building on that.  This is a destination job for him, the coaches are talking about 'putting down roots.'  It will obviously depend on success...but GA could be here for 15-years and really put his mark on the program.  
pilprin wrote: I looked at the Parade top rated players....

We were in on one or two of them...Thats it out of 50+ guys.

Collins isn't listed either. 

It just reminds me that when we are talking recruiting, the SEC and OSU are on a different plane that we are. (Not a surprise to many of you)

We need really good coaches who develop talent. BA and BB did that with their staffs...based on a small sample GA seems to have done that as well.
We'll see how much of a destination job it is if he has success.  He and his staff are woefully underpaid when compared to the top college programs around the nation. Heck even Charlie Strong is getting paid $3.7M a year at Louisville.  
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Posted: 2/4/2013 10:04 AM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 



Favre2Sterlingfor6 wrote:
Ph3431 wrote: Without question, UW has to be a developmental program if it's going to be successful.  One of the biggest reasons the Badgers have been so successful is the stability in the program.  Bielema was essentially an extension of BA...we've had the same program for 20+ years.  We've been the most stable program in the conference up until the last year.

I like the GA hire because I see him and his staff building on that.  This is a destination job for him, the coaches are talking about 'putting down roots.'  It will obviously depend on success...but GA could be here for 15-years and really put his mark on the program.  
pilprin wrote: I looked at the Parade top rated players....

We were in on one or two of them...Thats it out of 50+ guys.

Collins isn't listed either. 

It just reminds me that when we are talking recruiting, the SEC and OSU are on a different plane that we are. (Not a surprise to many of you)

We need really good coaches who develop talent. BA and BB did that with their staffs...based on a small sample GA seems to have done that as well.
We'll see how much of a destination job it is if he has success.  He and his staff are woefully underpaid when compared to the top college programs around the nation. Heck even Charlie Strong is getting paid $3.7M a year at Louisville.  

You don't think if GA proves himself on the big stage that he won't see significant pay raises?  From early indications, boosters already like GA WAYYYY more than they did BB.

"Players make plays, players win games."

Gary Andersen

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Posted: 2/4/2013 10:20 AM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 



sudsmcbucky wrote:
Favre2Sterlingfor6 wrote:
Ph3431 wrote: Without question, UW has to be a developmental program if it's going to be successful.  One of the biggest reasons the Badgers have been so successful is the stability in the program.  Bielema was essentially an extension of BA...we've had the same program for 20+ years.  We've been the most stable program in the conference up until the last year.

I like the GA hire because I see him and his staff building on that.  This is a destination job for him, the coaches are talking about 'putting down roots.'  It will obviously depend on success...but GA could be here for 15-years and really put his mark on the program.  
pilprin wrote: I looked at the Parade top rated players....

We were in on one or two of them...Thats it out of 50+ guys.

Collins isn't listed either. 

It just reminds me that when we are talking recruiting, the SEC and OSU are on a different plane that we are. (Not a surprise to many of you)

We need really good coaches who develop talent. BA and BB did that with their staffs...based on a small sample GA seems to have done that as well.
We'll see how much of a destination job it is if he has success.  He and his staff are woefully underpaid when compared to the top college programs around the nation. Heck even Charlie Strong is getting paid $3.7M a year at Louisville.  

You don't think if GA proves himself on the big stage that he won't see significant pay raises?  From early indications, boosters already like GA WAYYYY more than they did BB.
Pay raises sure?  How significant they are is another story.
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Posted: 2/4/2013 10:30 AM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


Recruiting is another area in which I think BB hit his ceiling at UW, and yes that is reality that we are not in the same tier in terms of recruits as the big boys. Right now anyway. 

We have had two decades of good success and the program is building upon that success each year. That doesn't happen over night, and GA is now charged with continuing that progress of yearly success. We have built this program to a consistently winning program, we just need to take that next step now. Hence personally why I don't mind seeing the change in coaching staffs. 

If we can become a more offensively balanced team and maintain the success, I can see us continuing to draw more QB and WR recruits interest. Russell Wilson's one year may be felt for the next decade if GA can balance the offense a little more and we can continue to churn out successful seasons. 

Back to the point.. yes right now we are a development program over a churning over a elite talent base season after season and plugging in the best talent into the machine. And there in nothing wrong with that. 


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Posted: 2/4/2013 11:03 AM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


UW does fine in recruiting as after the top 10 they are all about the same.

Go over the past 20 years of recruiting.  Pick out the top 5 recruits that the Badgers brought in or fans were overly ecstatic about.

Then look at what other offers they had.

Did they have offers from the top SEC teams, Texas, USC, Ohio St, etc?  Did they have offers from the teams that annually end up in the top 10 recruit classes and are routinely going after 4 star and 5 star players.

How many players in the ESPN top 150 have the Badgers gotten and how many of these other teams gotten.

And that is year in and year out.  This is why it is so difficult for the Badgers to compete for a national title.  It takes more than a couple great recruits or one year of a great recruiting class.  It takes year after year.
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Posted: 2/4/2013 12:14 PM

Re: A recruiting Reality Check.... 


How does McEvoy impact this discussion? 

Beat out the Gators, Oregon and WV for this commitment.. two of those are national contender. 


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