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California lunacy

  • fldore
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Posted: 8/9/2012 4:57 PM

California lunacy 


Borrow $100 million today and pay back $1 billion 20 years from now.  

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org...1a4bcf887a.html

These people are lunatics!  Where do they think this money is going to come from?  Maybe the feds will pump so much money into the state that after Weimar style inflation that billion dollars will be worth next to nothing.

The sad thing is the Feds will have to bail them out which really means the rest of us will.



"You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you."  - Cornelius Vanderbilt
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Posted: 8/10/2012 4:32 PM

Re: California lunacy 


Wall St Journal talked about something today I've always wondered.  Why doesnt Romney or other conservative campaigns talk about the obvious failure due to liberal idealogy that is California?

http://online.wsj.com/article/...1659026022.html

This is a state that could not fail.  Amazing agricultural potential. Amazing natural resources. Amazing opportunity for tourism with the miles of endless beaches, snowy mountain tops, desert oasis', redwood forests, etc, etc...  Amazing weather.  Amazing diversity.  The envy of most countries around the world.  

Yet its a state that is becoming a colossal failure.  The debt at this point is almost insurmountable.  As stated in my earlier post, they are borrowing 100M to pay back 1B 20 years later.  That doesnt make sense.  Thats impossible financially.  How has California come to this?

Liberal policies!  This state is a liberal's wet dream.  Every fancy, every whim, every desire a liberal has ever wanted takes place here.  Unions are prevalent everywhere.  Out of control pensions.  High taxes.  Tons of regulation on business.  Every time a bird breaks a wing, rallys and government agencies are formed to prevent possible extinction.

Yet the state is failing.  People are fleeing(legal ones that is), businesses are fleeing, debt is rising.  Public services are being cut so pensions can be paid.  Cities are going bankrupt.  Its arguably beyond repair.  If this isnt the greatest indictment of liberal policies, I dont know what is.  At least California can always fall back on the fact that the rest of the country could bail them out.  But who will bail out America?  Nobody will and nobody can.  Yet why do Americans want to follow the lead of California?  And I dont understand why Romney isnt showcasing it as the example of what not to do.  Of how not to responsibly run a country.



"You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you."  - Cornelius Vanderbilt
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Posted: 8/15/2012 7:51 PM

Re: California lunacy 


http://www.realclearmarkets.co...kers_99823.html

"In 2005 the city of San Bernardino borrowed $50 million using pension bonds in an effort to shrink its massive debt with the California Public Employees' Retirement Systems (CalPERS). Two years later Stockton floated nearly $125 million in pension bonds because it faced the same pressures as San Bernardino. Neither city reformed or reduced its pension benefits at the time in order to stop the continuing rapid growth of retirement liabilities. In fact, San Bernardino subsequently enhanced pensions."

When faced with fiscal disaster, what do you do in California?  Promise more payments to pensions!  Incredible. Once again, the liberal utopia at its finest.



"You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you."  - Cornelius Vanderbilt
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Posted: 8/15/2012 9:42 PM

Re: California lunacy 


Californians have been keeping an eye on what's going on in Europe and apparently they like what they see.

Also, I just wanted to point out, before the PC police come along, that lunacy may not be a politically preferred term.   Insane and crazy are out as well.   I think fiscally disabled is the correct term.
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Posted: 8/16/2012 9:15 AM

Re: California lunacy 



doreking wrote: Californians have been keeping an eye on what's going on in Europe and apparently they like what they see.

Also, I just wanted to point out, before the PC police come along, that lunacy may not be a politically preferred term.   Insane and crazy are out as well.   I think fiscally disabled is the correct term.
You're the one who's all of these things, so you can decide what to call it.
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Posted: 8/16/2012 9:54 AM

Re: California lunacy 


I do believe 'financially challenged' is the current PC term you are looking for.
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Posted: 8/16/2012 4:30 PM

Re: California lunacy 


California sounds like the real life Hunger Games

http://www.realclearpolitics.c...nia_115128.html

Its easy to support all these social whims when you dont have to live through it.



"You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you."  - Cornelius Vanderbilt
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Posted: 8/16/2012 5:12 PM

Re: California lunacy 


California has had a Republican governor in office for 32 of the last 45 years, or 71% of the time. I don't know where you get your idea that the place has been a "liberal's wet dream". It's taken both political parties, not just one. And it's taken the popping of the biggest housing bubble anywhere in the country to bring the state to its economic knees. Prior to which, Enron -- led by rightwing shill Ken Lay -- raped the place, as documented in the film Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room. Don't kid yourself: plenty of republicans have participated in the despoiling of California.

The title of this thread should have always just been "Lunacy", period.
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)
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Posted: 8/16/2012 6:53 PM

Re: California lunacy 



vebiltdervan wrote: California has had a Republican governor in office for 32 of the last 45 years, or 71% of the time. I don't know where you get your idea that the place has been a "liberal's wet dream". It's taken both political parties, not just one. And it's taken the popping of the biggest housing bubble anywhere in the country to bring the state to its economic knees. Prior to which, Enron -- led by rightwing shill Ken Lay -- raped the place, as documented in the film Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room. Don't kid yourself: plenty of republicans have participated in the despoiling of California.

The title of this thread should have always just been "Lunacy", period.
Whoever's been running the show out there, they haven't exactly be implementing limited government and fiscally conservative policies.
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Posted: 8/16/2012 7:39 PM

Re: California lunacy 


doreking wrote: ...Whoever's been running the show out there, they haven't exactly be implementing limited government and fiscally conservative policies.
It's not democrats' fault that republicans only recently re-invented the idea of balancing budgets (although they've campaigned on that platform for decades & decades, just never tried to actually govern that way). The fact that republicans across the nation were was incapable as democrats in governing without deficit spending does not mean that the US debt and the California state debt were 100% the fault of democrats.

I said that both parties were responsible, & I stand by that statement. As distinctly opposed to fldore's original argument, which seems to be that California has never contained any republican voters.
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)
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Posted: 8/16/2012 7:42 PM

Re: California lunacy 



vebiltdervan wrote: California has had a Republican governor in office for 32 of the last 45 years, or 71% of the time. I don't know where you get your idea that the place has been a "liberal's wet dream". It's taken both political parties, not just one. And it's taken the popping of the biggest housing bubble anywhere in the country to bring the state to its economic knees. Prior to which, Enron -- led by rightwing shill Ken Lay -- raped the place, as documented in the film Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room. Don't kid yourself: plenty of republicans have participated in the despoiling of California.

The title of this thread should have always just been "Lunacy", period.
Like the Governator whose brilliant budget gimmick was to borrow tax revenue from local governments?  Broke local governments no less.  To suggest California isnt a liberal's wet dream is bordering on delusional.  Some of the countries highest income taxes, sales taxes, corporate taxes, gas taxes, crushing regulation on business, immensely strong unions(teachers, prison guards, etc...), insanely high pensions and benefits for state retirees, carte blanche public services for illegals, etc...  The antithesis of fiscal conservatism.



"You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you."  - Cornelius Vanderbilt
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Posted: 8/16/2012 7:56 PM

Re: California lunacy 


fldore wrote: ...Like the Governator whose brilliant budget gimmick was to borrow tax revenue from local governments?  Broke local governments no less. To suggest California isnt a liberal's wet dream is bordering on delusional. Some of the countries highest income taxes, sales taxes, corporate taxes, gas taxes, crushing regulation on business, immensely strong unions (teachers, prison guards, etc...), insanely high pensions and benefits for state retirees, carte blanche public services for illegals, etc...  The antithesis of fiscal conservatism.
It may very well be the antithesis of fiscal conservatism, but everything in California was built by democrats & republicans (including Ronald Reagan) together. You are simply wrong to blame it entirely upon liberals.

Republicans in governing practice for the last 40 plus years have not been fiscal conservatives, that is my point. If they had been, I'd probably be a republican (except for social value issues thing). But though republicans have TALKED fiscal responsibility all this time, they haven't walked the walk. Not the California GOP governors, not Richard Nixon, not Ronald Reagan, not George HW Bush, not George W Bush.

Now all of a sudden, they mean what they say? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Not when the Ryan budget plan cuts Romney's tax rate to <1%, while raising taxes on poorer Americans, not while the Romney budget plan also call for tax cuts for the wealthy, and specifies zero details about where the money will be made up with spending cuts. They want us to trust them on this stuff. There are no grounds for trusting them, not based on experience.
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)
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Posted: 8/16/2012 9:04 PM

Re: California lunacy 



vebiltdervan wrote:
It may very well be the antithesis of fiscal conservatism, but everything in California was built by democrats & republicans (including Ronald Reagan) together. You are simply wrong to blame it entirely upon liberals.

Republicans in governing practice for the last 40 plus years have not been fiscal conservatives, that is my point. If they had been, I'd probably be a republican (except for social value issues thing). But though republicans have TALKED fiscal responsibility all this time, they haven't walked the walk. Not the California GOP governors, not Richard Nixon, not Ronald Reagan, not George HW Bush, not George W Bush.

Now all of a sudden, they mean what they say? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Not when the Ryan budget plan cuts Romney's tax rate to <1%, while raising taxes on poorer Americans, not while the Romney budget plan also call for tax cuts for the wealthy, and specifies zero details about where the money will be made up with spending cuts. They want us to trust them on this stuff. There are no grounds for trusting them, not based on experience.
hah, dare I say it, you sound like the majority of those who attend Tea Party rallys.  

However I find it odd that you said you'd be a republican if they stayed true to fiscal conservatism, yet I take it you vote democrat where you know for a fact they wont.  

And while I wont deny that there are too many big government Republicans, especially out in California where even RINO's are considered too far right, the vast majority of policies leading to California's demise are those from Liberals.  Most Republican blame has been for conceding too much.  Deukmejian took a terrible situation with huge deficits and high unemployment and quickly turned things around only to follow that up with more government spending.  Its easy to be conservative when times are tough, its harder to show restraint when things arent.



"You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you."  - Cornelius Vanderbilt
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Posted: 8/17/2012 12:55 PM

Re: California lunacy 


fldore wrote: ...I find it odd that you said you'd be a republican if they stayed true [Note: had EVER been true -- vebiltdervan] to fiscal conservatism, yet I take it you vote democrat where you know for a fact they wont...
Based on real world experience, neither party is capable of governing with fiscal prudence, so despite the GOP's greater commitment to lip service along those lines, it's a wash. To date, I know for a fact that neither party will walk the walk.

I've posted here numerous times now about what I see as the failure of Keynesian economic policy as conducted in this country: Keynesianism calls for governmental austerity during non-recessions. Instead, what Americans get during those times is a competition between the two parties to loot the public treasury (as predicted by some Athenian a few millenia back, as the reason why democracy could never be a stable form of government). The democratic party wants to loot the public treasury through spending; the republican party wants to loot it through tax cuts. The net result is no different whatsoever. Anyway, it's not like I haven't argued for fiscal prudence on this forum. But being a Keynesian, I just don't argue for it during recessionary times, like right now.

As for my personal voting, since the economics to me is a wash between the two parties, that leaves things like foreign policy & domestic social issues as points of choice. And on those, my personal beliefs are far more in line with the democratic party.
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)
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Posted: 8/19/2012 6:44 PM

Re: California lunacy 



vebiltdervan wrote:.
Based on real world experience, neither party is capable of governing with fiscal prudence, so despite the GOP's greater commitment to lip service along those lines, it's a wash. To date, I know for a fact that neither party will walk the walk.

I've posted here numerous times now about what I see as the failure of Keynesian economic policy as conducted in this country: Keynesianism calls for governmental austerity during non-recessions. Instead, what Americans get during those times is a competition between the two parties to loot the public treasury (as predicted by some Athenian a few millenia back, as the reason why democracy could never be a stable form of government). The democratic party wants to loot the public treasury through spending; the republican party wants to loot it through tax cuts. The net result is no different whatsoever. Anyway, it's not like I haven't argued for fiscal prudence on this forum. But being a Keynesian, I just don't argue for it during recessionary times, like right now.

As for my personal voting, since the economics to me is a wash between the two parties, that leaves things like foreign policy & domestic social issues as points of choice. And on those, my personal beliefs are far more in line with the democratic party.
Fair enough!  I would argue though that whatever short term negative implications lower taxes would create(if they do), they pail in comparison to the devastating long term impact that "mandatory" spending programs have created.  So while economic issues may be a wash for you between the two parties, I question whether you are weighting them equally.

and back on point to California, whether its traitor Repubs or liberals makes no difference to me.  Its the lack of fiscal conservatism and the acceptance of the Liberal nanny state, political machine that is bringing down California.  

http://www.newgeography.com/co...nia-new-detroit

"Governor Brown’s budget will first slash money to schools and raise tuition on its students while leaving all 519 state agencies intact. He apparently will protect political patronage at all costs. Jobs, and job creators, are fleeing the state. Intel, Apple, and Google are expanding out of the state. The best and brightest minds are leaving for Texas and North Carolina."



"You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you."  - Cornelius Vanderbilt
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Posted: 11/11/2012 4:30 PM

Re: California lunacy 


Time to bring this thread back to the top now that we've decided to kick the can down the road another 4 years when it comes to our fiscal suicide in the next 10-20 years w/ all these entitlements.  As Mark Landsbaum points out, the nation is moving more towards California, the liberal wet dream of governance which is in a fiscal death spiral.....

http://www.ocregister.com/opin...ent-nation.html

California is unable to pay many of its pensions hence all the bankrupt cities, but whats the answer?  More pensions!

http://www.mercurynews.com/top...nsion-promising

http://online.wsj.com/article/...1506837334.html

The state that should not fail is moving closer and closer to Greece.  It would be a lot of fun to watch this state implode under the weight of liberal fiscal policies if the rest of the country wouldnt have to bail them out as Im sure we will.  Hopefully California goes first and then the rest of the country will learn not to follow suit.



"You have undertaken to cheat me. I won't sue you for the law is too slow. I'll ruin you."  - Cornelius Vanderbilt
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Posted: 11/12/2012 9:00 AM

RE: California lunacy 


I would like to see the next mid-term election become a mandate for whichever party is willing to make the hard decisions to get some sort of plan formed and implemented to bring fiscal sanity back to DC. If neither party is willing or able, then I wouldn't mind seeing a wholesale abandonment of the established two-party system.

The Reform and Libertarian parties are looking like the more fiscally responsible choices right now.
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Posted: 11/12/2012 4:08 PM

Re: California lunacy 


As a resident, this is a very ,very sore topic.

 

Yes, the residents voted a tax increase, both a sales (.25%) and high incomers (1-3%). Interviews on the street with the common man said they thought the tax was sticking it to the rich and hadn't recognized that they too would have to pay. In addition to an 10%(?) income tax, the sales tax is 9%. You'd think that would be enough money, by Nooooo!

 

The State Senate and State House are and have been as long as I can remember, both controlled by the Democrats. Most recognize the politicians as firmly in the back pockets of the Government Employee unions.

 

Our local politicians are also in the back pockets of these unions. The unions give the politicians money, get them elected and the employees get a nice raise. Results = some the highest salaries for Government Employees. Just google the average salary of a Newport Motorcycle Beach Policeman (+100K) or an Orange County Teacher (+80K).

There was a proposition on the ballet to ban union contributions to political campaigns. It failed. Can you guess who gave the most money to defeat that bill?

 

I can rant about this forever, However, and forunately Obama was re-elected. He will not let California fail. My state is your problem and there's not a damn thing that anyone seems to be able to do about it.

Oh, Oh, Oh, before I forget. The great leaders of this state passed a bill that said that if a city bankrupted, their obligations to their union government employees had still to be met. It's the private sector on this one that gets screwed. This is still working its way through the state courts.  

Thanks for listening

Last edited 11/12/2012 4:11 PM by WestCoastDore

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Posted: 11/12/2012 5:36 PM

Re: California lunacy 


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Posted: 11/14/2012 8:19 AM

RE: California lunacy 


When California defaults, and the federal government has to step in, will we have the fortitude or backbone that Germany has had with Greece, to institute fiscally responsible policies and austerity measures designed to bring budget insanity back into order?

Will Californian's protest and riot like the Greek's when or (less likely) if that time comes?

Is this the kind of future we are working our way towards?
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