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With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon Emissions

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Posted: 6/3/2014 1:11 PM

With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon Emissions 


EPA is rolling out new rules to cut coal fired emissions by 30%. This may sound reasonable to you liberals on this board. To me this is targeting our nations older electrical providers. Even if you believe in global warming, the US cutting our carbon emissions while China and India double theirs is a bit like pissing in the wind while really affecting our energy grid and the cost to supply such energy.

If the ultimate goal and result is closing these older electrical providers down, we will have a HUGE cost to replace these and costs WILL be passed on to the customer. I see electrical rates going up by 45-50%.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 1:33 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



cjdore wrote: EPA is rolling out new rules to cut coal fired emissions by 30%. This may sound reasonable to you liberals on this board. To me this is targeting our nations older electrical providers. Even if you believe in global warming, the US cutting our carbon emissions while China and India double theirs is a bit like pissing in the wind while really affecting our energy grid and the cost to supply such energy.

If the ultimate goal and result is closing these older electrical providers down, we will have a HUGE cost to replace these and costs WILL be passed on to the customer. I see electrical rates going up by 45-50%.
You make some valid points, but I still support the rollout.

First, believing in global warming shouldn't be an "even if" at this point, but rather an accepted fact.

Second, I agree with your point about China and India essentially undoing our conservation efforts, but you have to start somewhere, and you have to start with what you have control over.  We have a chance to be a leader in this effort, and then be the country that sells our green energy, green technology, and green infrastructure to places like China and India when they finally get to where we are. 

Third, yes, we will see higher energy rates (though 45-50% is higher than any estimate I've seen).  I'm OK with that.  I can't find it online to link it, but the newspaper this morning cited a survey that asked Americans if they we be support laws to cut carbon emissions, even if it caused a $20/month increase in electric bills.  They had 57% of Republicans, 76% Independents, and 78% Democrats supporting the change. (Or numbers close to that, at any rate).

Fourth, what I liked most about the rollout yesterday was the rolling timelines for the standards to take effect.  They are giving coal dependent states longer to meet the new standards than others states.  While there is a lot that needs to be done to meet the new emissions standards, this roaming deadline should help give companies time to adjust, instead of crushing them completely.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 1:34 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 


About time.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 1:48 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



mathknapp wrote:
cjdore wrote: EPA is rolling out new rules to cut coal fired emissions by 30%. This may sound reasonable to you liberals on this board. To me this is targeting our nations older electrical providers. Even if you believe in global warming, the US cutting our carbon emissions while China and India double theirs is a bit like pissing in the wind while really affecting our energy grid and the cost to supply such energy.

If the ultimate goal and result is closing these older electrical providers down, we will have a HUGE cost to replace these and costs WILL be passed on to the customer. I see electrical rates going up by 45-50%.
You make some valid points, but I still support the rollout.

First, believing in global warming shouldn't be an "even if" at this point, but rather an accepted fact.

Second, I agree with your point about China and India essentially undoing our conservation efforts, but you have to start somewhere, and you have to start with what you have control over.  We have a chance to be a leader in this effort, and then be the country that sells our green energy, green technology, and green infrastructure to places like China and India when they finally get to where we are. 

Third, yes, we will see higher energy rates (though 45-50% is higher than any estimate I've seen).  I'm OK with that.  I can't find it online to link it, but the newspaper this morning cited a survey that asked Americans if they we be support laws to cut carbon emissions, even if it caused a $20/month increase in electric bills.  They had 57% of Republicans, 76% Independents, and 78% Democrats supporting the change. (Or numbers close to that, at any rate).

Fourth, what I liked most about the rollout yesterday was the rolling timelines for the standards to take effect.  They are giving coal dependent states longer to meet the new standards than others states.  While there is a lot that needs to be done to meet the new emissions standards, this roaming deadline should help give companies time to adjust, instead of crushing them completely.
Easy to get consensus when you ask a question like that. $20 bucks vs cleaner air? I would say that the average person spends $200/month on electric bill. If I am right and bill goes to $300 I bet these same people responding to the survey have an entirely different answer.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 2:11 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



cjdore wrote:
Easy to get consensus when you ask a question like that. $20 bucks vs cleaner air? I would say that the average person spends $200/month on electric bill. If I am right and bill goes to $300 I bet these same people responding to the survey have an entirely different answer.

I admit that $20/month is a debatable figure.  Of course, your 50% increase is also easily debatable.

$200/month on electric average?!?!?!?  I average about $150/month for electric and gas combined!  And there are a lot of people that own smaller homes than I do.  Or rent much smaller apartments.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 2:42 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



cjdore wrote: Even if you believe in global warming ...
It's not an article of faith.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 2:48 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 


Easy to get consensus when you ask a question like that. $20 bucks vs cleaner air? I would say that the average person spends $200/month on electric bill. If I am right and bill goes to $300 I bet these same people responding to the survey have an entirely different answer.

That's true with everything. If W had said he, like Nixon did during VN, was going to put a 5% surcharge on taxes to pay for the wars, peace would reign.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 2:52 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



VANDFAN wrote:

If W had said he, like Nixon did during VN, was going to put a 5% surcharge on taxes to pay for the wars, peace would reign.
There's so much importance in this statement.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 2:55 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 


Perhaps more people will be motivated to supplement (or replace entirely) their grid-provided electricity with solar and other renewable sources. IMHO, that would be a very good outcome. And yeah, traditional carbon-based utility monopolies will raise their rates in an effort to cling to their cash-dinosaur, while the energy production paradigm continues to shift to one that in the long term is going to be much more economical and sustainable.

Sometimes important progress has a price. This is a wonderful development, one of the better things this administration has done/will do. As such, I'm certain that it will be included in the Articles of Impeachment.

Last edited 6/3/2014 3:05 PM by ORDore

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Posted: 6/3/2014 3:11 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



ORDore wrote:  one of the better things this administration has done/will do.
And from my side of the aisle that is really, really sad.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 3:18 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



mathknapp wrote:
cjdore wrote: EPA is rolling out new rules to cut coal fired emissions by 30%. This may sound reasonable to you liberals on this board. To me this is targeting our nations older electrical providers. Even if you believe in global warming, the US cutting our carbon emissions while China and India double theirs is a bit like pissing in the wind while really affecting our energy grid and the cost to supply such energy.

If the ultimate goal and result is closing these older electrical providers down, we will have a HUGE cost to replace these and costs WILL be passed on to the customer. I see electrical rates going up by 45-50%.
You make some valid points, but I still support the rollout.

First, believing in global warming shouldn't be an "even if" at this point, but rather an accepted fact.

Second, I agree with your point about China and India essentially undoing our conservation efforts, but you have to start somewhere, and you have to start with what you have control over.  We have a chance to be a leader in this effort, and then be the country that sells our green energy, green technology, and green infrastructure to places like China and India when they finally get to where we are. 

Third, yes, we will see higher energy rates (though 45-50% is higher than any estimate I've seen).  I'm OK with that.  I can't find it online to link it, but the newspaper this morning cited a survey that asked Americans if they we be support laws to cut carbon emissions, even if it caused a $20/month increase in electric bills.  They had 57% of Republicans, 76% Independents, and 78% Democrats supporting the change. (Or numbers close to that, at any rate).

Fourth, what I liked most about the rollout yesterday was the rolling timelines for the standards to take effect.  They are giving coal dependent states longer to meet the new standards than others states.  While there is a lot that needs to be done to meet the new emissions standards, this roaming deadline should help give companies time to adjust, instead of crushing them completely.
Well put, Math. I'm very in sync with your thinking. 

Global warming is indisputable. What to do about it is another matter. 

I have a rather cynical opinion (fear) that no matter what we, the well-meaning advanced nations of the world do or do not burn for energy, that the rest of the world will be burning up all of the fossil fuel there is. So as cjdore put it - we might be pissing in the wind. Also, I have sentimental attachments to the coal biz. Even a gradual shutting down of an industry that is poised to provide this country with so much, won't be pretty. 

But setting aside my doom and gloom for a sec, I agree with you. We're America. We're supposed to be leaders of the world. Sometimes being a leader means making sacrifices--sacrifices which many other nations are already making. I don't think Obama is being hyperbolic when he says that we're feeling and witnessing global warming right now. The climate is, in fact, changing.  The weather patterns are incredibly erratic, and the consequences are observable in quite a few places close to home.

I don't think it's too much to ask for businesses, residents, and cities to turn a few lights off and pay a few more dollars. 

What to do with the coal industry, though?  Man it kind of stings to think about all that coal we have in this country going to waste.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 3:18 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



WestCoastDore wrote:
ORDore wrote:  one of the better things this administration has done/will do.
And from my side of the aisle that is really, really sad.
Well, good or bad, the administration has done a helluva lot more than Congress has done in the last four years .....
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Posted: 6/3/2014 4:18 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 


This will indeed put some pinch on the economy. Nevertheless, it's something that has to be done sometime, & it would have been done earlier, except for the Great Recession. At the end of GW Bush's time in office, the GOP had just come up with the idea of carbon cap & trade, which would have passed with bipartisan support in the absence of an economic near-collapse. 

But of course, as soon as Obama indicated that he was in philosophical support of the idea, the GOP turned on their own idea, just as they did with Romney/Obamacare.

As for China, they're going to do nothing about their CO2 emissions so long as we do nothing about ours. But once we & the western nations have all made real commitments to reducing emissions, then we can place a nice fat tariff on the goods exported by any nation that does not follow suit.

It's time, now that our economy can once again bear the burden, to lead instead of just watching China & the US follow each other down the rathole. We've been using each other as an excuse for too long.
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)
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Posted: 6/3/2014 4:58 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 


50% of our electricity comes from coal.....you shut down plants with NO alternative(solar not feasible /affordable yet) NO back up....just wait till electric rates go up. The U.S. uses & demands so much power there will be black outs. Just wait...wait till the grid is compromised .....Climate change is NOT a fact.....biggest scam ever.
Honesty is an expensive gift. Don't expect it from cheap people.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 5:04 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



Nashmann wrote: 50% of our electricity comes from coal.....you shut down plants with NO alternative(solar not feasible /affordable yet) NO back up....just wait till electric rates go up. The U.S. uses & demands so much power there will be black outs. Just wait...wait till the grid is compromised .....Climate change is NOT a fact.....biggest scam ever.
Welcome aboard Nashman.......I have started to feel like Tom Cruise in Top Gun with boggies everywhere. enagge and get in this battle with me friend!!!cool
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Posted: 6/3/2014 7:49 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



Nashmann wrote: 50% of our electricity comes from coal.....you shut down plants with NO alternative(solar not feasible /affordable yet) NO back up....just wait till electric rates go up. The U.S. uses & demands so much power there will be black outs. Just wait...wait till the grid is compromised .....Climate change is NOT a fact.....biggest scam ever.
I, for one, would be plenty happy to see nuclear plants open.

As for the second part ... sigh...
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Posted: 6/3/2014 8:24 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



Nashmann wrote: 50% of our electricity comes from coal.....you shut down plants with NO alternative(solar not feasible /affordable yet) NO back up....just wait till electric rates go up. The U.S. uses & demands so much power there will be black outs. Just wait...wait till the grid is compromised .....Climate change is NOT a fact.....biggest scam ever.
Nashmann, I love you. But I've seen the computer models right at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. I've personally spoken with nearly all of the top climatologists, meteorologists, endochronologists, historians, and relevant physicists in the U.S.  I've interviewed a former Chaiman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the sitting head of the U.S. Army's weather prediction center (an utter badass colonel who studies the weather like it's his religion) about climate change. 

In my travels I've seen entire species of trees dying because of persistent high temperatures. I've seen beech communities already experiencing unprecedented floods and tide waters. We've all seen pictures of the polar ice caps and receding glaciers. 

There is absolutely no doubt... Climate change is real, man-made, and happening faster than predicted. 

The entire scientific community has quadruple confirmed the methods, results and conclusions of the climate studies performed. 

The former head of BP admitted it. The sitting head of Exxon admits it. The only people who don't admit it are a large swath of American conservatives and a few scientists either seeking 15 minutes of fame as a counterpoint prop on the nightly news or actually receiving a paycheck from fossil fuel companies.  

It's over. The Alamo of ignorance known as "climate skepticism" is falling. Get out while you can.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 9:01 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 





---------------------------------------------
--- Nashmann

Climate change is NOT a fact.....biggest scam ever.

---------------------------------------------

How quickly we've forgotten "Evolution" and "Gravity."
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Posted: 6/3/2014 9:50 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



BILTMORE wrote:
Nashmann wrote: 50% of our electricity comes from coal.....you shut down plants with NO alternative(solar not feasible /affordable yet) NO back up....just wait till electric rates go up. The U.S. uses & demands so much power there will be black outs. Just wait...wait till the grid is compromised .....Climate change is NOT a fact.....biggest scam ever.
Nashmann, I love you. But I've seen the computer models right at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. I've personally spoken with nearly all of the top climatologists, meteorologists, endochronologists, historians, and relevant physicists in the U.S.  I've interviewed a former Chaiman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the sitting head of the U.S. Army's weather prediction center (an utter badass colonel who studies the weather like it's his religion) about climate change. 

In my travels I've seen entire species of trees dying because of persistent high temperatures. I've seen beech communities already experiencing unprecedented floods and tide waters. We've all seen pictures of the polar ice caps and receding glaciers. 

There is absolutely no doubt... Climate change is real, man-made, and happening faster than predicted. 

The entire scientific community has quadruple confirmed the methods, results and conclusions of the climate studies performed. 

The former head of BP admitted it. The sitting head of Exxon admits it. The only people who don't admit it are a large swath of American conservatives and a few scientists either seeking 15 minutes of fame as a counterpoint prop on the nightly news or actually receiving a paycheck from fossil fuel companies.  

It's over. The Alamo of ignorance known as "climate skepticism" is falling. Get out while you can.
And you LWNJ will credit our coldest winder to climate change. With your research and logic, FL will be under water in 1 yr.so why buy beachfront property?
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Posted: 6/3/2014 10:09 PM

Re: With Stroke of a pen.....EPA to cut Coal Fired Carbon 



cjdore wrote:
BILTMORE wrote:
Nashmann wrote: 50% of our electricity comes from coal.....you shut down plants with NO alternative(solar not feasible /affordable yet) NO back up....just wait till electric rates go up. The U.S. uses & demands so much power there will be black outs. Just wait...wait till the grid is compromised .....Climate change is NOT a fact.....biggest scam ever.
Nashmann, I love you. But I've seen the computer models right at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. I've personally spoken with nearly all of the top climatologists, meteorologists, endochronologists, historians, and relevant physicists in the U.S.  I've interviewed a former Chaiman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the sitting head of the U.S. Army's weather prediction center (an utter badass colonel who studies the weather like it's his religion) about climate change. 

In my travels I've seen entire species of trees dying because of persistent high temperatures. I've seen beech communities already experiencing unprecedented floods and tide waters. We've all seen pictures of the polar ice caps and receding glaciers. 

There is absolutely no doubt... Climate change is real, man-made, and happening faster than predicted. 

The entire scientific community has quadruple confirmed the methods, results and conclusions of the climate studies performed. 

The former head of BP admitted it. The sitting head of Exxon admits it. The only people who don't admit it are a large swath of American conservatives and a few scientists either seeking 15 minutes of fame as a counterpoint prop on the nightly news or actually receiving a paycheck from fossil fuel companies.  

It's over. The Alamo of ignorance known as "climate skepticism" is falling. Get out while you can.
And you LWNJ will credit our coldest winder to climate change. With your research and logic, FL will be under water in 1 yr.so why buy beachfront property?
Is that jibberish a response to my post?  I seriously can't tell.
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