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AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right

Posted: 2/19/2013 9:02 AM

AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


Not sure which is more alarming; the fact that Germany has outlawed the practice or the fact that our government supports that country's position.

What could be more fundamental the a parent's ability to teach their own children at home?

Last edited 2/19/2013 9:26 AM by VUGearhead

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Posted: 2/19/2013 9:36 AM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


While I don't think it should be banned, many parents are not qualified to be teaching and on top of that, many home-schooled kids end up lacking social development that leaves them woefully under-prepared to deal with the real world later. Kids can only be sheltered from the real world for so long.

RWNJs do know there are tons of church schools they can send their offspring to for continued right-wing indoctrination don't they? (or are conservative religious schools also too "wild and crazy" by their "standards" ??)
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Posted: 2/19/2013 9:55 AM

Re: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


I seldom say this, but I completely agree with hoyal.  Banning it is a bold step, but I do view it differently.  There are MANY problems with homeschooling.  For every homeschool kid that gets notoriety for success in academic competitions there are lots of kids homeschooled by parents that simply don't kow enough content to effectively teach their kids about math or science or history. 

Further, the required attendence at an outside-the home school does not preclude homeschooling.  You are still free to teach your child in whatever fashion you want -- including instructing your kid that things in their traditional school are wrong. 

But there is a lot of abuse of and problems with homeschooling.  LOTS.
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Posted: 2/19/2013 10:20 AM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


To be forthcoming, this position is regarding the application for political asylum of a German family. They were originally granted asylum by the lower courts, however, the AG's office has chosen to oppose that decision. So, the opinion really refers to the German nation's stance on homeschooling. Now, I don't know anything about that nation's education system, other than it ranks better than ours.

As for our system. While homeschooling may be abused in many cases, our education system still has some oversight into the practice here. Homeschooling parents are given the requirements for their children's education and they are still required to take and pass standardized tests here. And heaven help us if the only reason we send our kids to public school is for socialization skills.

Thanks for politicizing the issue, hoyal. I guess I can't post anything without it having a political connotation?

Not all can afford private schools for their childrenl. Ironic how even our POTUS doesn't trust his children's education to the public system. And you do realize that a major reason many (RWNJ) pull their children from schools is to get them away from the institutionalized, left-wing rhetoric they are bombarded with on a daily basis by their teachers. LOL, even today, on MSN's homepage, there is a poll about a whether a public teacher should be fired or not for campaigning for Obama to her students in a school setting.

The point of homeschooling shouldn't be to 'undo' a teaching, but rather to instruct correctly in the first place. I realize that is a direct threat to the teachers' unions, but if the system wasn't as broken as it is, it wouldn't be.
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Posted: 2/19/2013 11:21 AM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 



VUGearhead wrote:  And you do realize that a major reason many (RWNJ) pull their children from schools is to get them away from the institutionalized, left-wing rhetoric they are bombarded with on a daily basis by their teachers. LOL, even today, on MSN's homepage, there is a poll about a whether a public teacher should be fired or not for campaigning for Obama to her students in a school setting.
Just so you know, this does (as you would expect) happen on both sides.  There was a story in Kentucky this past fall about a teacher who got in some hot water after a student complained about the way the teacher wrote "You can't be a democrat and go to heaven" on the board and left it there all day.
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Posted: 2/19/2013 11:28 AM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


no doubt.
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Posted: 2/19/2013 11:38 AM

Re: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


Link? 
VUGearhead wrote: Not sure which is more alarming; the fact that Germany has outlawed the practice or the fact that our government supports that country's position.

What could be more fundamental the a parent's ability to teach their own children at home?
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Posted: 2/19/2013 11:59 AM

Re: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


I'd be interested in a link, too. It sounds to me like the question boils down to whether Germany's policy of requiring school attendance is an adequate basis for political asylum for the family. Considering other situations in which political asylum is granted or denied, I'm not sold on this one

.
Gracchus wrote: Link? 
VUGearhead wrote: Not sure which is more alarming; the fact that Germany has outlawed the practice or the fact that our government supports that country's position.

What could be more fundamental the a parent's ability to teach their own children at home?
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Posted: 2/19/2013 12:09 PM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


Now this is the funny part. I can't find any reference to this in any major media stream. Why do you suppose that is?

Here a link:

www.independentsentinel.com/20...meike-v-holder/
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Posted: 2/19/2013 12:38 PM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


VUGearhead wrote: Now this is the funny part. I can't find any reference to this in any major media stream. Why do you suppose that is?...
Perhaps you 'suppose that is' because of left-wing MSM bias?

In contrast, my first guess would be it's because Eric Holder & the DOJ are not actually actively involved in the deportation appeal, but perhaps only nominally so. I tend to question the accuracy & objectivity of the one, relatively unknown, source first, rather than the absence of every other source. Maybe it's not really the story someone wants to lead us to believe, for their own reasons?
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)
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Posted: 2/19/2013 12:50 PM

Re: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


Okay, here's a link to the government's brief, in which they provide the argument for overturning the judge's original decision to grant asylum:

http://www.hslda.org/docs/news...(6th%20Cir).pdf


SUMMARY OF THE ARGUMENT

Romeike’s petition for review should be denied because the record does not compel the conclusion that he faces a possibility of future persecution in Germany based on a protected ground under the INA. In order to prevail, Romeike must show that the record compels the conclusion that Germany’s mandatory public school attendance law is selectively enforced, or that Germany metes out disproportionate punishment, on account of religious affiliation or another protected ground. Here, no record evidence compels the conclusion that Germany selectively enforces its public school attendance requirement, or that it disproportionately punishes any particular group for failing to comply with the law.

Moreover, as the Board properly found, “German homeschoolers” do not constitute a viable particular social group. The group lacks social visibility and particularity, and this Circuit’s asylum law requires both elements for a cognizable “social group.” The petition for review should therefore be denied.

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Posted: 2/19/2013 12:53 PM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


If not Holder and the DOJ, then who would have appealed the original grant of asylum?

I was more curious as to why it wasn't considered more newsworthy. I note that Fox (Faux, as you would refer to it) has also not picked up the lead. But then again, I guess if they did, some would only conclude that it was even more of a right wing snowjob.
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Posted: 2/19/2013 1:04 PM

Re: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 



VandyWhit wrote: Okay, here's a link to the government's brief, in which they provide the argument for overturning the judge's original decision to grant asylum:

http://www.hslda.org/docs/news...(6th%20Cir).pdf


SUMMARY OF THE ARGUMENT

Romeike’s petition for review should be denied because the record does not compel the conclusion that he faces a possibility of future persecution in Germany based on a protected ground under the INA. In order to prevail, Romeike must show that the record compels the conclusion that Germany’s mandatory public school attendance law is selectively enforced, or that Germany metes out disproportionate punishment, on account of religious affiliation or another protected ground. Here, no record evidence compels the conclusion that Germany selectively enforces its public school attendance requirement, or that it disproportionately punishes any particular group for failing to comply with the law.

Moreover, as the Board properly found, “German homeschoolers” do not constitute a viable particular social group. The group lacks social visibility and particularity, and this Circuit’s asylum law requires both elements for a cognizable “social group.” The petition for review should therefore be denied.

Why let the actual law get in the way of a good rant?  What next?  Are you going to point out that Eric Holder and Obama did not actually write this brief?  Save your facts and law for someone who cares.
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Posted: 2/19/2013 1:07 PM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


Whit, did you read the article that decribes the German court's reasoning for banning homeschooling?

Also, I don't see how the criteria for a social group (visibility and particularity) is valid. Do you have to be LOUD AND PROUD to be considered a group? I guess Branch Davidians or polygamist Mormons aren't social groups, either.

Their particularity seems obvious in that they choose to assume the responsiblity of educating their own children, contrary to the masses and the state mandated system. As for the visiblity issue, it is a matter of self-preservation. Obviously German homeschoolers are prosecuted for violating state law. Visibility, therefore, would not be a goal of the group.

Last edited 2/19/2013 1:12 PM by VUGearhead

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Posted: 2/19/2013 2:23 PM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


I just want to point out that 'Eric Holder & the DOJ' is an excellent & available name for a rock band.
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)
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Posted: 2/19/2013 3:27 PM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


If you mean the unabashedly right-wing article you linked to, yes. But after spending a few minutes trying to find the original Holder quote in which he said "There is no fundamental liberty to homeschool" in that article, I was unable to find it although I found quite a few articles with the same quote, referencing each other.




VUGearhead wrote: Whit, did you read the article that decribes the German court's reasoning for banning homeschooling?

Also, I don't see how the criteria for a social group (visibility and particularity) is valid. Do you have to be LOUD AND PROUD to be considered a group? I guess Branch Davidians or polygamist Mormons aren't social groups, either.

Their particularity seems obvious in that they choose to assume the responsiblity of educating their own children, contrary to the masses and the state mandated system. As for the visiblity issue, it is a matter of self-preservation. Obviously German homeschoolers are prosecuted for violating state law. Visibility, therefore, would not be a goal of the group.
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Posted: 2/19/2013 11:00 PM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


I don't deny the biased intent of the posted thread. HOWEVER, I see no reason to doubt the facts presented, do you?

As for the quote you mention, it seems to me that most of these articles are referencing the DOJ's arguments in their appeal to the appellate courts against the original grant of asylum, not the other news articles. I will admit that the articles are attempting to sensationalize the story by affixing Holder's name, as AG and head of the DOJ, to what is most likely an argument presented by a lower level DOJ attorney. However, that is not to say he is not uninformed on the case or the position his department has taken. The case in the appellate court does have his name on it.
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Posted: 2/20/2013 6:12 AM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


It appears to me that most of the articles are referencing an article written by someone named Michael Farris at the Home School Legal Defense Association.  In that article, he wrote, "The U.S. Attorney General has said this about homeschooling. There is no fundamental liberty to homeschool."

Somehow that appears to have transmuted into a direct quote, as in the article linked to earlier in this thread:

Eric Holder said home schooling is not a protected freedom. He said “There is no fundamental liberty to homeschool.”

Possibly Eric Holder actually did say that, but I haven't yet found the original quotation. If anyone finds it, please pass it along.





VUGearhead wrote: I don't deny the biased intent of the posted thread. HOWEVER, I see no reason to doubt the facts presented, do you?

As for the quote you mention, it seems to me that most of these articles are referencing the DOJ's arguments in their appeal to the appellate courts against the original grant of asylum, not the other news articles. I will admit that the articles are attempting to sensationalize the story by affixing Holder's name, as AG and head of the DOJ, to what is most likely an argument presented by a lower level DOJ attorney. However, that is not to say he is not uninformed on the case or the position his department has taken. The case in the appellate court does have his name on it.

Last edited 2/20/2013 6:21 AM by VandyWhit

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Posted: 2/20/2013 10:16 PM

Rank these recent story lines in order of Importance 


Meteor explodes over Russia 

Federal Reserve unlikely to end stimulus efforts soon, minutes signal

Russia and Arab League propose to engage on Syrian conflict

Severed underground gas pipe led to fatal Kansas City explosion

More worries about Iran's nuclear program

Egypt to deal with new power, economic troubles

Libya threatens to spawn more unrest in North Africa

Where will North Korea turn its focus?

Economic uncertainty in U.S., growth in China

Premeditated murder charge for Pistorius 

Family from Country with Awesome Public Education Snubbed By Country with Crappy Public Education  - Deemed too Stupid for Asylum



There is no quote from Holder about people not having a right to home school. There is only that mischaracterization by the attorneys of this German family who claim that the DOJ's denial of their asylum request constitutes that message.  In fact, it only constitutes a failure on their part to qualify for asylum. Only they and the right wing blogosphere thinks it has anything to do with home schooling.

The constant whining from the right about lack of coverage for non-stories like these is laughable.
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Posted: 2/21/2013 9:54 AM

RE: AG Holder: Homeschooling not a Fundamental Right 


While some people may be more interested in pebble fragments half way across the world, or another case of misplaced hero worship, others of us are more concerned about our own government's constant march towards relinquishing any sense of liberty our founding fathers intended to preserve for us.

Biltmore's insulting comments aside, it is not our government's duty to argue a case based on the legal status of another country, but to determine if an asylum applicant's reasons agree with OUR laws and rules. So, unless you agree that homeschooling is not a fundamental right in this country as well as Germany (as that nation, and apparently our own DOJ believe), then you should be concerned. And the ramifications of a ruling often extend beyond the specific court case, unless you don't believe legal precedents are valid or used anymore.
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