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Re: Most important pre-election question

Posted: 11/6/2012 11:30 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


What a joke this thread is. It demonstrates a favorite tactic of the left, which is to destroy those who challenge their policies. Further, those in favor of big government are deemed rational and reasonable, while anyone who disagrees is an extremist.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 11:31 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


I didn't miss the "de facto" part. I simply think you're wrong. You think anything left of pure free market is "de facto socialism."
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Posted: 11/6/2012 11:32 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



vebiltdervan wrote:
WestCoastDore wrote: ...after the election, we can all hope that the extremists of both sides will learn to listen, discuss and compromise rather than behave like bad kindergarten students.
I'm of the pessimistic opinion that, if Obama wins, the GOP will not 'listen, discuss and compromise', but rather will draw the opposite conclusion, to wit: that Romney wasn't a 'true conservative'. And they will therefore double-down on extremism and deadlock.

Which likely as not will be rewarded in 2014, because democrats just aren't as dependable voters as republicans in 'off-year' (non-presidential) elections. But assuming that a reliably truly conservative is nominated by the GOP in 2016 (which takes Christie out of play, except as possible VP), America's demographics will expose this double-down as a terribly costly mistake, & send the GOP scrambling to regain their disappearing (at that point) competitiveness. Trouble is, the GOP will find themselves caught between their monetary dependence on ultra-right rich donors like the Koch brothers, versus the clearly perceived necessity of moving back toward the middle.

The demographic logic is inescapable: every 4 years, the American voting populace is 2% more minority. The GOP cannot retain its relevance much longer if they remain the party of white male Americans.
Warren Ellis expressed a similiar fear. See http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read...election-really
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Posted: 11/6/2012 11:32 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



doreking wrote: What a joke this thread is. It demonstrates a favorite tactic of the left, which is to destroy those who challenge their policies. Further, those in favor of big government are deemed rational and reasonable, while anyone who disagrees is an extremist.

This from the person who regularly calls us all Socialists? 

Keep living in your own world, doreking ... you ARE an extremest by any honest historical measure. That's not to say, in and of itself, that you are wrong. But, you ARE an extremist.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 11:40 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


You are full of it. I want freedom and a limited government that protects freedom. You guys want unlimited government and a government managed economy. If my position is now extremist, our nation is in deep trouble

You guys are totally misguided and brainwashed by a leftist media, that simply destroys any dissent.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 11:45 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


doreking wrote: "What a joke this thread is. It demonstrates a favorite tactic of the left, which is to destroy those who challenge their policies. Further, those in favor of big government are deemed rational and reasonable, while anyone who disagrees is an extremist."


doreking wrote: "You are full of it. I want freedom and a limited government that protects freedom. You guys want unlimited government and a government managed economy. If my position is now extremist, our nation is in deep trouble

You guys are totally misguided and brainwashed by a leftist media, that simply destroys any dissent."



Pot kettle much?

Last edited 11/6/2012 11:59 AM by ORDore

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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:01 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


Unfortunately for you what I'm saying is true.

By the way, you guys are supporting a president who has implemented unprecedented levels of government spending, boasts about a governmental takeover of gm, and has implemented a health care scheme that uses government force to micromanage the practice of healthcare. If you don't understand why these things suck, you could benefit from some economics lessons.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:18 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



doreking wrote:  If you don't understand why these things suck, you could benefit from some economics lessons.
Okay, I'll bite. Exactly who teaches your form of macro-economics?
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:26 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



doreking wrote: Unfortunately for you what I'm saying is true.

By the way, you guys are supporting a president who has implemented unprecedented levels of government spending, boasts about a governmental takeover of gm, and has implemented a health care scheme that uses government force to micromanage the practice of healthcare. If you don't understand why these things suck, you could benefit from some economics lessons.

Fact: Every president since Roosevelt has implemented "unprecedented levels of government spending." Every. Single. One. Even Reagan. 

Fact: Government spending has increased at a slower rate over the past four years than it has during every presidential term since Eisenhower. Every single one. Even Reagan's.

Economic lessons my ***. You spew disingenuous Tea Party talking points like they're gospel, then blame us for being ignorant. My 12-year old Grover Norquist theory is looking VERY good.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:27 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


Non liberals and non keynesians (many spread the lie that government spending is somehow superior and magically multiplies throughout the economy).
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:31 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


I would love to see your mountains of peer-reviewed studies that show how trickle-down stimulates economic growth.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:36 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



ORDore wrote: I would love to see your mountains of peer-reviewed studies that show how trickle-down stimulates economic growth.
Arthur Laffer?  6741_rotfl.gif

FWIW, you should avoid trying to engage this guy.  He spouts hyperbole based on hyperbole and little else.  I'm convinced he's actually a pro-Obama troll trying to make Republicans look bad.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:38 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


I know. Occasionally I like to play his game. It's fun. In moderation. Moderation ... ha!
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:40 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



ORDore wrote: I know. Occasionally I like to play his game. It's fun. In moderation. Moderation ... ha!
I fell into the same trap yesterday.  In related news, I debated my wall.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:41 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



Dore2004 wrote:
ORDore wrote: I would love to see your mountains of peer-reviewed studies that show how trickle-down stimulates economic growth.
Arthur Laffer?  6741_rotfl.gif

I just have to acknowledge that I didn't miss this gem, and that it made my day. Thank you!
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:46 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


1. There is no question a free market system is the best way to prosperity. Does it require government? Of course, but the government should be limited to areas where free markets don't work and for safety/protecting innocent 3rd parties. Should the government spend our money for us and distort transactions between consenting adults? No. Should the government arbitrarily redistribute income in the name of fairness? Never. That is different from limited help for the poor.

Notwithstanding, freedom should always be paramount. When government spends our money and distorts our economic choices it does so with force. Comply or go to federal prison. Big governent, especially when beyond reasonably necessary bounds (such as your suggestion that the government should actively manage the economy) always destroys freedom.

In addition, government policies can't trump the laws of economics. There are always unintended consequences to government economic policies, despite the best of intentions. Not to mention how inefficient and wasteful government is, because it necessarily involves spending other peoples' money on things deemed important by politicians and bureaucrats, rather than things in actual demand. In addition, government exist without competitive .pressures that preclude it being responsive and efficient.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 12:56 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



doreking wrote: 1. There is no question a free market system is the best way to prosperity. Does it require government? Of course, but the government should be limited to areas where free markets don't work and for safety/protecting innocent 3rd parties. Should the government spend our money for us and distort transactions between consenting adults? No. Should the government arbitrarily redistribute income in the name of fairness? Never. That is different from limited help for the poor.

Notwithstanding, freedom should always be paramount. When government spends our money and distorts our economic choices it does so with force. Comply or go to federal prison. Big governent, especially when beyond reasonably necessary bounds (such as your suggestion that the government should actively manage the economy) always destroys freedom.

In addition, government policies can't trump the laws of economics. There are always unintended consequences to government economic policies, despite the best of intentions. Not to mention how inefficient and wasteful government is, because it necessarily involves spending other peoples' money on things deemed important by politicians and bureaucrats, rather than things in actual demand. In addition, government exist without competitive .pressures that preclude it being responsive and efficient.
Again, exactly at which prestigious university or by which renown economistics is this profound economic viewpoint being taught? Tell me so that we can get those "economic lessons" you say we all need. Thanks
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Posted: 11/6/2012 1:20 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



vebiltdervan wrote:
geeznotagain wrote: ...the amount of government assistance provided today (expressed as a pct of GDP) far surpasses anything in the Eisenhower years.
Do we have a link that shows this? My operating hypothesis would be that, to the extent it's true, it's a direct reflection of the Great Recession still. If recovery continues, it will drop back down to the same level as Obama's predecessor.
I saw such a chart, and I can probably find it again if need be, but I thought that it would be self-evident that the $ spent on "welfare" (and it may be difficult coming to a common definition of what welfare is) would have spiked post "Great Society". Certainly, it has spiked further after the financial crisis of 2008, but even so, I think there was a huge rise with LBJ, that never dropped back appreciably.

Regarding welfare, I would think only stuff that is "means tested" would count. That would exclude social security (even though to some extent it is an income redistribution vehicle) and Medicare.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 1:22 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


Try reading milton friedman.

There's no evidence to support keynesian theory. "Theory" says it all.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 1:32 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



doreking wrote: Try reading milton friedman.

There's no evidence to support keynesian theory. "Theory" says it all.
As I understand him and simplified, in Milton's THEORY, it's more a consumer lead recovery than governmental. Obama (as would any sane president) has via his tax reduction (can you say social security) done that. Obama (again, a no brainer) also took the keynesian approach. I'd say Obama hedged his bets on the economy.


So did I pass my economic class?
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