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Most important pre-election question

Posted: 11/5/2012 9:54 PM

Most important pre-election question 


If (when) Obama is declared the winner tomorrow night, will doreking just vaporize?
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Posted: 11/5/2012 9:58 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


No, because Obama's EPA would consider that pollution, and my heirs would have to deal with that.
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Posted: 11/5/2012 10:13 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


Nixon. Nixon's EPA. 

Nixon, Eisenhower, Teddy Roosevelt ... Socialists all.
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Posted: 11/5/2012 10:26 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


You don't think Obama is a socialist?   If not, what is he?
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Posted: 11/5/2012 10:30 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


DCDore wrote: If (when) Obama is declared the winner tomorrow night, will doreking just vaporize?
Vaporize? No. But go right ahead off the deep end? Yeah, looks kinda like it.

Since Obama gets reelected, & Obama is a socialist, then America just voted to go socialist. And I don't see a place for doreking in our new commune, do you comrades?
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)

Last edited 11/6/2012 9:49 AM by vebiltdervan

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Posted: 11/5/2012 11:06 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 




---------------------------------------------
--- doreking wrote:

You don't think Obama is a socialist?   If not, what is he?

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I think that if Obama is a socialist, Nixon, Eisenhower, and T. Roosevelt were also Socialists.
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Posted: 11/5/2012 11:15 PM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


More to the point, I think Obama, like Clinton, Nixon, Eisenhower, Truman, Roosevelt, Roosevelt, believed in a rational balance between free market and socialism. You know, the kind of balance that led to the greatest period of economic, social, and technological progress in the United States over the past century, in the 50s and 60s. I think Reagan, Hoover, and Wilson leaned too far to either side, as does Romney as currently programmed. And I think Bush Jr. was simply incompetent.

I think that, like Grover Norquist (aka "the man who owns more than half of all house votes"), you believe in pure, un-checked free market capitalism. I think you are extraordinarily naive and blindly idealistic in your understanding and/or acknowledgement of its negative implications, and obsessive in your devotion to it.

Last edited 11/5/2012 11:17 PM by ORDore

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Posted: 11/6/2012 2:52 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



ORDore wrote:

I think that, like Grover Norquist (aka "the man who owns more than half of all house votes"), you believe in pure, un-checked free market capitalism. I think you are extraordinarily naive and blindly idealistic in your understanding and/or acknowledgement of its negative implications, and obsessive in your devotion to it.

I was campaigning the other day in a little town called Bluntfart Kansas and a woman came up to me who was the {parent/sibling/spouse/friend} of a {farmer/veteran/retired person/factory worker} and said that OrDore's post was the best one of the week and it really gave them hope for the future of our great land.  I told her I understood but that we still have work to do - together - while I kissed her baby and pretended to care about her little story.

(Afterwards, I told high ranking campaign staffers, that if "Stat King" isn't back in time for the first regular season game, to throw OrDore under the bus and to memo all talk radio hosts to slather his name in mud on a regular basis with much gusto)
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Posted: 11/6/2012 8:18 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



ORDore wrote: More to the point, I think Obama, like Clinton, Nixon, Eisenhower, Truman, Roosevelt, Roosevelt, believed in a rational balance between free market and socialism. You know, the kind of balance that led to the greatest period of economic, social, and technological progress in the United States over the past century, in the 50s and 60s. I think Reagan, Hoover, and Wilson leaned too far to either side, as does Romney as currently programmed. And I think Bush Jr. was simply incompetent.

I think that, like Grover Norquist (aka "the man who owns more than half of all house votes"), you believe in pure, un-checked free market capitalism. I think you are extraordinarily naive and blindly idealistic in your understanding and/or acknowledgement of its negative implications, and obsessive in your devotion to it.
Would you be happy with the "European model" (yeah, I know there are differences from one country to the next, but you get the drift) here in the US? I know many would, and I'm not saying that they are "socialists". But their "rational balance" is to the left of what we currently have in the US (e.g., government ownership of utilities).

I believe most everyone thinks their position is "rational", and the other guys are fringe.

I'm familiar with Norquist's views on taxation, but not regulation. But I would be surprised if he believed in "pure, un-checked free market capitalism". Not even Friedman believed that.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 8:46 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


Obamacare = de facto socialism.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 8:58 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 




---------------------------------------------
--- doreking wrote:

Obamacare = de facto socialism.

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No, ObamaCare = regulation of the Health Care/Insurance industry. Single payer would be Socialist. We don't even have a public option. You're confused.

ObamaCare, like seemingly everything else Obama supports, is somewhere between pure free market and socialism.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 9:04 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


geez, I'm not advocating for a European model. And neither is Obama, of course.

I am of the firm belief that we have a serious tax revenue shortfall in this country that is the primary cause of our deficit and debt issues, and that we cannot deregulate and cut spending anywhere near enough to reverse the debt trend. People are going to have to make sacrifices for the greater good, just as the greatest generation did post-WWII.

Trust me, my views on taxation are much closer aligned with Eisenhower than they are with Obama. I can't even see Grover Norquist from where I'm standing. So, call me and Obama Socialists if you will, but you damn sure better be ready to call Nixon and Eisenhower Socialists when you do it.

Last edited 11/6/2012 9:18 AM by ORDore

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Posted: 11/6/2012 9:11 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


PS. Norquist has famously stated that he doesn't want to eliminate government, he simply wants it to be so small that he could drown it in a bathtub. If that's not a fringe viewpoint, I don't know what is. And this is the guy that >95% of Republicans in Congress signed a pledge to, essentially handing their votes on all fiscal matters over to Norquist. Romney signed the pledge, too. Fringe indeed.

By no historical measures is Obama anywhere near the fringe. None. Period.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 9:41 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



ORDore wrote: geez, I'm not advocating for a European model. And neither is Obama, of course.

I am of the firm belief that we have a serious tax revenue shortfall in this country that is the primary cause of our deficit and debt issues, and that we cannot deregulate and cut spending anywhere near enough to reverse the debt trend. People are going to have to make sacrifices for the greater good, just as the greatest generation did post-WWII.

Trust me, my views on taxation are much closer aligned with Eisenhower than they are with Obama. I can't even see Grover Norquist from where I'm standing. So, call me and Obama Socialists if you will, but you damn sure better be ready to call Nixon and Eisenhower Socialists when you do it.
Again, I'm not calling you a socialist, not calling the "European model" socialist.

But there is more to socialism than tax rates. If one looks at it in terms of providing government assistance to the poor, the disabled, the unemployed, etc., I don't think you can put Eisenhower in the same category as any president after LBJ. The Great Society programs greatly increased the amount of government aid. And though some presidents (e.g., Reagan and Clinton) made some reforms, the amount of government assistance provided today (expressed as a pct of GDP) far surpasses anything in the Eisenhower years.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 9:56 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


geeznotagain wrote: ...the amount of government assistance provided today (expressed as a pct of GDP) far surpasses anything in the Eisenhower years.
Do we have a link that shows this? My operating hypothesis would be that, to the extent it's true, it's a direct reflection of the Great Recession still. If recovery continues, it will drop back down to the same level as Obama's predecessor.
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)
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Posted: 11/6/2012 10:22 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


I don't disagree with your basic premise geez, and like vebilt would like to see those numbers.

My problem is that we don't have the tax revenue in place to support those programs. We did in the 1950s. Can we cut some stuff? Sure. Can we deregulate stuff that's no longer necessary? Sure. But, it won't come anywhere close to making a significant difference, especially if we're increasing military spending to 4% of GDP. 

Also, you're right - you never called me a socialist. Consider that comment for doreking.

Last edited 11/6/2012 10:24 AM by ORDore

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Posted: 11/6/2012 10:48 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 



DCDore wrote: If (when) Obama is declared the winner tomorrow night, will doreking just vaporize?

I suspect that he will be even worse. Therefore, you should vote for Mitt. Of course if Mitt wins, your side of the aisle's  NJ will be even worse, so I guess, no matter what we all lose.

Of course, after the election, we can all hope that  the extremist of both sides will learn to listen, discuss and compromise rather than behave like bad kindergarten students.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 10:54 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


Theory: 

1. Grover Norquist stated that he came up with "The Pledge" when he was 12 years old.

2. doreking is 12 year old Grover Norquist, transported from the past. 

Discuss.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 11:04 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 


WestCoastDore wrote: ...after the election, we can all hope that the extremists of both sides will learn to listen, discuss and compromise rather than behave like bad kindergarten students.
I'm of the pessimistic opinion that, if Obama wins, the GOP will not 'listen, discuss and compromise', but rather will draw the opposite conclusion, to wit: that Romney wasn't a 'true conservative'. And they will therefore double-down on extremism and deadlock.

Which likely as not will be rewarded in 2014, because democrats just aren't as dependable voters as republicans in 'off-year' (non-presidential) elections. But assuming that a reliably truly conservative is nominated by the GOP in 2016 (which takes Christie out of play, except as possible VP), America's demographics will expose this double-down as a terribly costly mistake, & send the GOP scrambling to regain their disappearing (at that point) competitiveness. Trouble is, the GOP will find themselves caught between their monetary dependence on ultra-right rich donors like the Koch brothers, versus the clearly perceived necessity of moving back toward the middle.

The demographic logic is inescapable: every 4 years, the American voting populace is 2% more minority. The GOP cannot retain its relevance much longer if they remain the party of white male Americans.
They laughed when I said I was going to be a comedian. They're not laughing now. -Bob Monkhouse (1928-2003)
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Posted: 11/6/2012 11:23 AM

Re: Most important pre-election question 




---------------------------------------------
--- ORDore wrote:



---------------------------------------------
--- doreking wrote:

Obamacare = de facto socialism.

---------------------------------------------

No, ObamaCare = regulation of the Health Care/Insurance industry. Single payer would be Socialist. We don't even have a public option. You're confused.

ObamaCare, like seemingly everything else Obama supports, is somewhere between pure free market and socialism.

---------------------------------------------

You missed the de facto part. However you classify it, its horrendous policy.
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