mathknapp wrote:

We have ingredients, but some of this is somewhat overrated. 

1) SEC is a good conference ... but it's still a "football" conference.  Mid majors are really on the rise these days (VCU, Creighton, Butler, etc.) Plus, the kids we want are probably getting offers from the Big Ten, Pac 12, Big 12, ACC, and Whatever The Big East Is Turning Into anyway ... so the conference helps, but only so much.

2) Nashville is great ... but if the city was such a great pull, DePaul and St. John's would be power programs.  Plus, Nashville is not the hotbed of elite bball prospects that NYC, Chicago, or Atlanta are.  So while some good ones have grown up in our backyard, we will always have to look nationally to recruit.

3) You know who loves Memorial gym?  Vandy fans and alumni.  People that aren't in the Vandy family have reactions ranging from "awesome!'" to "weird" to "that's just sick and wrong".  Point being, it helps with some kids, but will put off others.  Which ones?  Impossible to say.  Plus, I have a suspicion that recruits would be more swayed by the creature comforts in the locker room than the environment on the court.  Could be wrong.  Just a feeling.

4) The academics too hurts as much as it helps.  For a #75 nationally ranked recruit, it should help, as they should realize no one in the NBA is looking too closely at them -- at least not as an early entrant candidate.  On the flip side, I simply can't imagine why a player that expects to be 1-and-done or 2-and-done would go to Vandy.  And that puts a ceiling on how good of a prospect we can really expect to land.  And that's without considering that some guys can't get through the admissions office.

This is an accurate commentary on the supposed strengths of our program.  

1) The shine is off SEC basketball at the moment - other than UK. 

2) While Nashville is the best town in the SEC, it doesn't stack up well against the top twenty cities, where most of the talent is from and a lot of big programs are located.  You can get away with being in a podunk city if you are a Kansas or even a UK, but location becomes an issue for most schools.   

3) The VU Administration killed the atmosphere in Memorial when they got greedy and forced people with good seats to join the Commodore Club.  Memorial has never been the same since then.  Without the noise, it is a strange looking old gym.

4)  Kids with good test scores and GPAs can go anywhere.  They have their choice of good academic schools or not-so-good academic schools.  Thus, we have a smaller pool of recruits who have a larger than average number of schools from which to choose.

Yep, you could say the same things about the football program, before James Franklin.

The head coach DOES make a huge difference.  Stallings' seeming lack of desire to sell the strengths of the Vanderbilt education, the SEC ,and Nashville, as well as his lack of willingness to publicly promote the program is killing the basketball tradition, such as it is, at VU.

doreknox - i greatly agree to #3--we had season tickets in F dating back to the 60's --we were told that F would not change in the gym redo then all of a sudden it was changing and you had to pay $3000 a seat(if i remeber correctly) and that bounced us out--we used to know everyone that sat around us---there was nothing like memorial gym when it was rocking---we even started a petition to not change F but you can guess what an impact that made.
They better never change the benches!!!!!!!!!!

Your memory is in error.  For Section F rows 1-11 the NCC contribution is currently $250 per seat.
I don't recall what it was at the the time of the renovation, but probably less.

It has never been anywhere NEAR $3000 per seat anywhere in the gym.  The biggest contribution is for the first 7 rows of the chairback seats (sections A-E), $1500 per seat. 

Exclusive of the suites, of course.

PeteFox wrote: Yep, you could say the same things about the football program, before James Franklin.

The head coach DOES make a huge difference.  Stallings' seeming lack of desire to sell the strengths of the Vanderbilt education, the SEC ,and Nashville, as well as his lack of willingness to publicly promote the program is killing the basketball tradition, such as it is, at VU.

I'm not going to get drawn back into the Stallings debate. 

I will concede that yes, the head coach does make a difference.  I will concede that yes, there are better recruiters than Stallings out there.  I will not concede that Stallings is a bad recruiter.  I will not concede that we could be confident of "trading up" instead of "trading down" if we decided to replace the coach.

In comparing basketball to football though, reread what I said about academics.  In football, players have to attend the college for 3 years before being drafted (or, I guess the rule is "be three years out of high school", which is almost the same thing).  Even at that, it is relatively uncommon for college players to leave after only 3 years.  Also, the nature of football is that only in special circumstances does a single high level player really control the fate of a team (and at that, almost always the player is an elite, near-Heisman QB or RB).  In basketball, almost all of the elite players leave after 1 or 2 years in college, and a single player can possibly mean 6 or 7 (or more) wins to a team versus if that player was not available.  For example, if Kemba Walker tears an ACL a few years ago, UConn would have struggled to make the NIT as opposed to winning a national title.  I shudder to think of what Matt Frieje's sweet 16 team would have done if Matt wasn't there that year.  Basketball is a game VERY HIGHLY influenced by a small number of elite players, who are likely predisposed to not caring about their college education since they don't plan on being around long enough to finish it.  Football is a little different.

PeteFox wrote: Yep, you could say the same things about the football program, before James Franklin.

The head coach DOES make a huge difference.  Stallings' seeming lack of desire to sell the strengths of the Vanderbilt education, the SEC ,and Nashville, as well as his lack of willingness to publicly promote the program is killing the basketball tradition, such as it is, at VU.

Looking at ESPN's Top 300 list of football recruits, which shows Vanderbilt's highest commitment is listed as #174, it looks like football at Vanderbilt DOES have the same problem described by mathknapp, i.e., being appealing to some very very good football players, but not the football equivalent of one-and-dones, despite James Franklin's overtly passionate approach to recruiting.

I don't think the numbers like that are comparable. Football has about 25 starting positions to fill, and 85 scholarships. Basketball has 5 and 13.

So #175 in football would be maybe top fifty in BB?

The proof is in the pudding, and BB is really hurting for talent right now.

We have a top 50 PF/C in Damian Jones that has signed a LOI for 2013.  How does that pudding taste?

PeteFox wrote: I don't think the numbers like that are comparable. Football has about 25 starting positions to fill, and 85 scholarships. Basketball has 5 and 13.

So #175 in football would be maybe top fifty in BB?

The proof is in the pudding, and BB is really hurting for talent right now.

Delicious.  Now if we had 4 or 5 more like him.......

PeteFox wrote: Delicious.  Now if we had 4 or 5 more like him.......

Man, does that comment ever seem different when taken out of context!

PeteFox wrote: Yep, you could say the same things about the football program, before James Franklin.

The head coach DOES make a huge difference.  Stallings' seeming lack of desire to sell the strengths of the Vanderbilt education, the SEC ,and Nashville, as well as his lack of willingness to publicly promote the program is killing the basketball tradition, such as it is, at VU.

I'm not going to say right now at this moment that I specifically agree or disagree with your post, but you do make several very good points.



NOTE: This post does not address or "take sides" in the topic of retaining or not retaining the current coaching staff of any sport at Vanderbilt University or at any other school or entity, collegiate or professional.

Even my syracuse orangeman don't do that. This is a pointless argument and has spawned numerous threads. It must be the lack of patience in today's society, everyone sees the winner, and forget everyone else is the loser. You turn on a golf tournament on Sunday and see 10-15 guys that are playing well, when half the field was sent home after Friday.
  As I, and others, who the see cup half-full. Be patient, I think another year, and Mcclellen, Jones and another year of experience/strength/conditioning, we're going to be a bubble team next year, and within a player of going back to the tourney. Again, this year is an aberration