and not have to rebuild?

I've been thinking about this a lot.

Franklin has come out and said their goal is to compete for championships every year.
I've never heard that from Stallings.  Before you jump all over me, i'm not trying to start something.  I've just never heard it from him.

Shouldn't Vanderbilt basketball be to the point where they compete for championships EVERY year?  Why do some Vanderbilt fans think we should only compete for championships every 3 or 4 years...that Vanderbilt cannot recruit well enough to be contenders every year?

Even the announcer on the broadcast said as much.

The goal at Vanderbilt should never be "have 1 good year then rebuild for 2".  I do think that having juniors and seniors is important.  Stallings has always had the most success when he has a senior leader.

I think that Stallings unbalanced recruiting has really hurt the team.  It is almost like Vanderbilt got hit with NCAA sanctions and now has to start over.

Right now, this is not a very good "team".  There just aren't enough parts to compete consistently.  If just one player doesn't bring it, the team will struggle.
There are several parts that are missing.
No true point guard (Pressey really impressed me).
No inside game (especially defensively).
No "go to" player.
No one that can really knock down the 3 (although Bright did hit the big 3 against Ole Miss).
No one who has the ability to take the ball to the basket and get fouled consistently.
No one who is deadly from the free throw line.
Not a lot of team speed (that was evident yesterday).

Those are a lot of missing pieces.

I think there are some parts that can be good, in time.

But what can't happen is the staff missing on any recruits.  The 2 guys coming in next year have to be able to contribute immediately or Vandy will struggle again next year.  Remember, every other team is going to get better next year as well.

My biggest worry is apathy.  Apathy hit football and people didn't go to or care about football.  Franklin has changed that.
Apathy has hit the basketball program.  Activity on this site has dropped to a few devout fans.  The students didn't even come to the game on Tuesday.
heck, Auburn had a great crowd at their game against ole Miss last night and they have never really followed basketball.
Memorial now only fills up for UK and UT.  

My wife said this isn't even a fun team to watch.  in the 15 years that she has been going to games with me, she said that his is the first year she just isn't excited about watching the games.  She says they are "boring".  She says that even when Vandy didn't have great teams, they at least had a player or 2 you enjoyed watching.  Drew maddox was always falling all over the floor and loved Vandy.  Frank Seckar hitting 3s. Just to mention a couple.

Attendance is always a key sign of where a program is.  Drawing only 9000 for an SEC game is not acceptable.

David Williams said Stallings' job is safe.  I can accept that.  I don't agree with it but my opinion is not worth  to the administration.

Sorry to ramble.

Vandy1Fan, you make some excellent points. I agree with most of what you wrote but would like to discuss one or two ponts. 

Be to honest, we have never been the type of program where we reload every year and stay consistantly in the top 25. Stallings seven year run is the best in school history regarding having solid teams. We did rebuild somewhat in Taylor's freshman year but we were not horrible. As far back as I can remember (1973-74 team), we've been good, then bad, then good for a couple of years, then bad again. C.M. struggled for several years. Fogler had two great years and two pretty fair ones. VBK had one decent season.

Say what you will, I think the up and down records are historically caused by recruiting.  Our high academic standards either eliminate or scare off many recruits.   Stallings does seem able to identify talent but we keep finishing second. If he brought in a stud recruiter who can close, this would definitely help him. I do believe he can coach them to success.

We are missing all those pieces you mentioned, but I do think we will have an improved PG and shooters available next year. If Jeter continues to blossom and Jones is the stud he is supposed to be, our inside game will be better. Bright will have another year of experience, too.  Also, I actually believe this team is faster than others that I remember.

Still, good observations and an excellent post.

Williams and the chancellor have said they expect VU to compete for championships - no timeline, but I think all the coaches have heard this.

The class got unbalanced though it's hard to blame anyone.  First we take Ezeli late when he was very raw and redshirt him.  Then a top 15 class with Taylor, Tinsley, Tchiengang, and Goulbourne.  Then they bring in a 3 year player in Jenkins.  So you lose 6 guys in one class. Unless you are taking down the haul of top 10 guys like Cal/ Wes at KY, you have to take a year to reload.  Remember the 4 in 5 years of NCAA appearances is the best in school history, but its unfortunate that we lose all those guys in one year.

Vandy1Fan wrote:...Why do some Vanderbilt fans think we should only compete for championships every 3 or 4 years...that Vanderbilt cannot recruit well enough to be contenders every year?...

Let's parse that question. You use the word 'should', such that you're accusing some of your fellow fans of not wanting greater success. That's pure bogus.

We're all VU fans, we all want as much success as possible.

So what you're describing is not what 'we' -- some fans -- want, it's what we have become accustomed to expect, based upon the VU basketball historical record, & what we perceive as some entirely real limitations on what Vanderbilt & its coach -- whoever that may be -- can accomplish. The UK-type ones-&-dones have never come to VU, & there's actual reasons for that, other than the fact that some on this forum are disgusted with Kevin Stallings. We've had a few shots at stray individual exceptions (perceived or actual) -- Mercer, Harrison, Poythress -- but it hasn't happened, & I'm saying that that is not necessarily merely the faults of VBK & Stallings. Their recruiting efforts do not exist separately from their context, which is everything that VU as a school accepts and requires. At UK, any sufficiently talented HS player is acceptable, & little or nothing is required once they're at UK. That's not Vanderbilt.

And our expectations on this forum will not change those real limitations, if they really are real limitations. Which I firmly believe they are.

All in all, it's a minor point. It's a request that you rearrange your thinking, such that you quit subliminally blaming your fellow VU fans for the failure of VU to be another UK or Duke in basketball. Or at least rearrange your posting, such that it doesn't sound that way.

Did you listen to CKS' call in show last week?  He discussed this very topic and said that he strives to be a top program like Duke.  Maybe the reason you have never heard Stallings say this is because you haven't listened.

My suggestion to you, as I'm assuming you live in Nashville, is to call his show this Monday and run down your list of questions.  I can guarantee you will get on the air.  I will be listening and can't wait to hear CKS respond.  Maybe at that point you will have some satisfaction on the direction of the program.

The show is this Monday from 7 - 8 pm on WLAC 1510 AM and the call in # is 1-855-2DORES1 (236-7371).  

First, the imbalance of the classes exacerbates this.  If we have 3 srs, 3 jrs, 3 soph, and 3 frosh this year, we likely have a drop off, but not as extreme as this year.

Second, the only way truly reload on a regular basis is to get 1-and-done or 2-and-done talent.  We will never get 1-and-done talent.  Many Vandy fans do not want us to get 1-and-done talent and make a mockery of our educational standards.  I cannot imagine why a 1-and-done player would want to go to a school like Vandy.  Yes, they (sometimes) go to Duke, but for better or worse, Duke has sold their academic soul to the basketball program.  I, for one, don't want to go there.

I have really not joined this argument for the last month for a couple reasons, but your post brings to mind a question or two....wouldn't EVERY coach say that they strive to be a top program like Duke, and after 14 yrs, shouldn't we be seeing at least a smidgen of a hint that VU is headed in that direction? I think we will be ok in a year or two, and I'm not as gloomy and doomy as some, but we are going through a period not many programs, short of ncaa troubles or a series of coaching changes ever find themselves in. Here's to hoping we beat the Vawls this week and get back on track.


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--- underdog74 wrote:

Did you listen to CKS' call in show last week?  He discussed this very topic and said that he strives to be a top program like Duke.  Maybe the reason you have never heard Stallings say this is because you haven't listened.

My suggestion to you, as I'm assuming you live in Nashville, is to call his show this Monday and run down your list of questions.  I can guarantee you will get on the air.  I will be listening and can't wait to hear CKS respond.  Maybe at that point you will have some satisfaction on the direction of the program.

The show is this Monday from 7 - 8 pm on WLAC 1510 AM and the call in # is 1-855-2DORES1 (236-7371).  

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I think it is more the thinking, by some, that it is okay to spend a couple of years rebuilding, then have a successful team, then repeat again.  Not all fans want this.  There are some that are OK with it and that that is the only way it can be done at Vanderbilt.

I don't think Vandy needs one-and-done players.  But they should be able to recruit solid 4*, top 75 players every year.

They shouldn't have to "settle" for anything less.

Vandy doesn't have to be Duke.  But there is no reason they can't be as successful, year end and year out, as Duke.

I'm just trying to understand why the program as fallen so far after having 3 good years.  I've heard all the reasons but the question remains, why?

Vandy1Fan wrote: I think it is more the think, by some, that it is ok to spend a couple of years rebuilding, then have a successful team, then repeat again. Not all fans want this. There are some that are OK with it and that that is the only way it can be done at Vanderbilt...They shouldn't have to "settle" for anything less.

Nice for you that you "don't want this". All the rest of us, besides you & sportsfan & hoyal & doxito, are just really happy as clams with crappy seasons. [extreme sarcasm alert]

Or is it possible, just possible, that your "don't want this" is a simple refusal to deal with reality? 

You want ones-&-dones, you want the nation's top talent to compete for entry to VU. Get a clue: we all would love to see top talent at VU, but some of us have noticed: A) that this has never happened yet, & B) we suspect that this deficiency, if addressed by firing coaches who can't accomplish it, will result only a string of fired coaches, with zero improvement on our actual level of success.

It's not a case of "wanting it" versus "not wanting it". It's far closer to being a case of reality versus fantasy.

Name one program that doesn't go through a rebuilding process.  Name just one.  All college basketball programs do.  UCLA, UK, Duke, Indiana, Butler, UF, UNC, ALL programs do.  Fire Roy Williams!!  Yes, some of us really sound that silly.  We have consistently won, been in the top 25, made the NCAA tourney, even beat #1 UK for the SEC tourney championship last year, graduated players, sent players to the NBA, and continue to receive praise from the college basketball world.  And the reason CKS mentioned Duke was because a caller had asked about academic restrictions.

SumnerCountyDore wrote: I have really not joined this argument for the last month for a couple reasons, but your post brings to mind a question or two....wouldn't EVERY coach say that they strive to be a top program like Duke, and after 14 yrs, shouldn't we be seeing at least a smidgen of a hint that VU is headed in that direction? I think we will be ok in a year or two, and I'm not as gloomy and doomy as some, but we are going through a period not many programs, short of ncaa troubles or a series of coaching changes ever find themselves in. Here's to hoping we beat the Vawls this week and get back on track.


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--- underdog74 wrote:

Did you listen to CKS' call in show last week?  He discussed this very topic and said that he strives to be a top program like Duke.  Maybe the reason you have never heard Stallings say this is because you haven't listened.

My suggestion to you, as I'm assuming you live in Nashville, is to call his show this Monday and run down your list of questions.  I can guarantee you will get on the air.  I will be listening and can't wait to hear CKS respond.  Maybe at that point you will have some satisfaction on the direction of the program.

The show is this Monday from 7 - 8 pm on WLAC 1510 AM and the call in # is 1-855-2DORES1 (236-7371).  

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You rebuild with quality recruits, and bench strength from the previous year.  So far, none are in in sight.  The cupboard is bare because KS has, for whatever reason, failed miserably in recruiting SEC talent.  And he has put himself in such a terrible position with class imbalance that it will take several years to recover, and that's IF he decides to recruit again.

When did Duke score 33 points in a game?  What about the other "programs that had to rebuild".
Any 33 priont games there?  Any 55% Free throw shooting?

Again, you have the opportunity to ask CKS this very question.  Call the man and ask him on his call in show.  I want to hear his response.

Even Duke has rebuilding years, by Duke standards.  Duke is now expected to to reach the sweet 16 every year and battle for the ACC title.  If that doesn't happen, in the eyes of their fans it is not a success.

As a fan, I want nothing more than to be successful, but I am also a realist.  Let me say this in a way I hope you can understand...Vandy basketball lost it's top 6 players last year and this year's team is very young and inexperienced.  One of the youngest in the country.  Practice a little patience and things will get better in the near future.  If we have another awful year next year, then your argument is much more valid.

Vandy1Fan wrote: I think it is more the thinking, by some, that it is okay to spend a couple of years rebuilding, then have a successful team, then repeat again.  Not all fans want this.  There are some that are OK with it and that that is the only way it can be done at Vanderbilt.

I don't think Vandy needs one-and-done players.  But they should be able to recruit solid 4*, top 75 players every year.

They shouldn't have to "settle" for anything less.

Vandy doesn't have to be Duke.  But there is no reason they can't be as successful, year end and year out, as Duke.

I'm just trying to understand why the program as fallen so far after having 3 good years.  I've heard all the reasons but the question remains, why?

Totally disagree.  Our issue this year is inexperience.  We ran an 8 (sometimes 9) man rotation last year, which included losing our top 6 guys.  If you weren't in that top 6, you weren't seeing many minutes.  We have some quality players that lack game experience.  Bright, Jeter, KJ, Parker all have huge upside.  If McClellan and the incoming Jones can make an immediate impact, we will get much better in a hurry.

UK has more than their fair share of quality recruits.  How is that working this year?

PeteFox wrote: You rebuild with quality recruits, and bench strength from the previous year.  So far, none are in in sight.

"When did Duke score 33 points in a game?  What about the other "programs that had to rebuild".
Any 33 priont games there?  Any 55% Free throw shooting?"

Come on Pete.  You are smarter than this.  You must have seen that Duke got destroyed by Miami by like 30 the other day.  Yes, even with Coach K at the helm and a team of All Americans, it happens.

doreknox wrote: Vandy1Fan, you make some excellent points. I agree with most of what you wrote but would like to discuss one or two ponts. 

Be to honest, we have never been the type of program where we reload every year and stay consistantly in the top 25. Stallings seven year run is the best in school history regarding having solid teams. We did rebuild somewhat in Taylor's freshman year but we were not horrible. As far back as I can remember (1973-74 team), we've been good, then bad, then good for a couple of years, then bad again. C.M. struggled for several years. Fogler had two great years and two pretty fair ones. VBK had one decent season.

Say what you will, I think the up and down records are historically caused by recruiting.  Our high academic standards either eliminate or scare off many recruits.   Stallings does seem able to identify talent but we keep finishing second. If he brought in a stud recruiter who can close, this would definitely help him. I do believe he can coach them to success.

We are missing all those pieces you mentioned, but I do think we will have an improved PG and shooters available next year. If Jeter continues to blossom and Jones is the stud he is supposed to be, our inside game will be better. Bright will have another year of experience, too.  Also, I actually believe this team is faster than others that I remember.

Still, good observations and an excellent post.

UF May be a good program to look at.....They never had a reload team until Coach Billy arrived and now they reload EVERY year. CKS has known for several years that he would be needing a legit SEC center to replace Fez and he has failed to reload. I have 2 words .......Shaka Smart

I thought about Florida too. Long term SEC coach. Magical success with two consecutive NCAA titles. But then look what happened:


2008-No NCAA. Semifinal loss in NIT to UMass.
2009-No NCAA. Quarterfinal loss in NIT to Penn State.
2010-First round loss in NCAA to BYU.
2011-Elite Eight run until Butler took them down.
2012-Elite Eight loss to Louisville.

They don't reload every year.  That looks like a pattern of outstanding success followed by a markedly less successful run and then a return to excellence, but not as good as what they did before. I have no idea what the Gator fanbase was saying after the loss to BYU but I suspect they had concerns similar to what is expressed on this board.

Why would any program be exempt from such a pattern of performance?

The question is, does any fan reading this board buy into holding programs to standards that only Wooden and Rupp have actually achieved? I get that no one here has insisted on the string of championships those guys pulled off but if you aren't demanding that then how do you decide where to draw the line on what variance is acceptable? I believe CKS would be the first to say he has not accomplished what he has hoped to. I bet even Wooden would have said the same. Perfect is the enemy of good.

Yeah, they had a couple of down years.  BUT, they didn't have a disasterous year in which there was absolutely no hope of a winning season, now or in the forseeable future.  There's down, and then there's rock bottom, where we are now.  In all the discussion of even good programs having to rebuild and reload, nobody seems to have found any programs who have fallen to the ineptness being shown by the Commodores.

cjdore wrote:

I have 2 words .......Shaka Smart

Can we PLEASE, just once and for all, posit and accept the fact that our next coach, whether we get one next year or 20 years from now, will NOT be Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens?  There's a difference between raising expectations and pipe dreams.  The view some have voiced saying we should reload and be a top 20 team virtually every year is raising expectations.  But if Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens were leaving their respective jobs for a position like ours, they would have already done it.  Period.

PeteFox wrote:  BUT, they didn't have a disasterous year in which there was absolutely no hope of a winning season, now or in the forseeable future.  

Personally, I am not only hoping for, but am expecting and would be surprised if we did not, have a winning season NEXT YEAR.  Just sayin'.