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Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
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Posted: 1/16/2013 10:46 AM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
I am hoping McClellan is a big help with that next year, too.
We have a bunch of slashers - but they are young... When the other team tries to pinch KJ, we do need a Bright, Parker or Jeter to get the ball and punish the d...
but if you screw up doing it, it is a lot of pressure and they are young. That's why i am thinking fuller is the right guy to insert at that juncture - but he has to play under control. And when you are coming off the bench, there is a tendency to want to "make things happen" rather than just make the right pass which is what we need most from him. I might add, Moats looked good on the pics last night and was fairly tireless in his screening efforts.
I hear you on the fouling thing - but last night, I disagree. We had a real problem with rebounding off foul shots. The refs were letting their bigs play physically and our guys were letting themselves get tossed out of the way - I can think of several times they scored a bucket after a missed free throw. That's all CKS would need, eh?
On the late non-time-out, I say, big deal. Honestly, I wish we had called one, seeing how things turned out. But many coaches prefer to play helter-skelter for three seconds and not let the other team set-up a play. We, however, did not play it very smart - letting them roll it up the court and get it to Henderson.
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Posted: 1/16/2013 11:05 AM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
Roanoke, can you believe or have you ever seen a coach in the last few seconds of any game look to his bench to ask if they had a timeout? Versus jumping right in after the make and calling the timeout he should have known about.
What you say about about helter skelter is usually on offense not defense as almost all coaches and as we saw KS even wanted a timeout to setup D.. Our guys ran from inbounds area with 3 guys all the way back inside their 3 line with a late Odom attempt to meet Henderson and got within maybe 10ft allowing open shot from a guy that actually has the range like JJ did and even Lofton did.. so in fact with 3 seconds and we literally had 1 guy that stayed focused but fell down versus having 2 or 3 chasing the ball. and fouling is taught to occur at the 1 second mark making the rebound putbacks we saw earlier impossible because those all were caught and took 3 to 4 seconds themselves and the Henderson 3 after missed ft by ole miss again couldnt have occurred due to time limits..
Just a great 3 point shooting game in the 1st half, then about 8 minutes of moving the ball to get good looks inside and then about 12 minutes of true helter skelter out of control BB allowing them to take over all momentum. |
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Posted: 1/16/2013 12:11 PM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
vusportsfan wrote:Roanoke, can you believe or have you ever seen a coach in the last few seconds of any game look to his bench to ask if they had a timeout? Versus jumping right in after the make and calling the timeout he should have known about.
What you say about about helter skelter is usually on offense not defense as almost all coaches and as we saw KS even wanted a timeout to setup D.. Our guys ran from inbounds area with 3 guys all the way back inside their 3 line with a late Odom attempt to meet Henderson and got within maybe 10ft allowing open shot from a guy that actually has the range like JJ did and even Lofton did.. so in fact with 3 seconds and we literally had 1 guy that stayed focused but fell down versus having 2 or 3 chasing the ball. and fouling is taught to occur at the 1 second mark making the rebound putbacks we saw earlier impossible because those all were caught and took 3 to 4 seconds themselves and the Henderson 3 after missed ft by ole miss again couldnt have occurred due to time limits..
Just a great 3 point shooting game in the 1st half, then about 8 minutes of moving the ball to get good looks inside and then about 12 minutes of true helter skelter out of control BB allowing them to take over all momentum. Gregg Popovich is arguably the best active coach in the world and he does it all the time. He has an assistant whose job is to keep track of timeouts so that he doesn't have to. Honestly, I think Kevin yelled timeout at the refs in plenty of time, it's just that it's really hard to hear at the end of the game. It's just one of those things that happens.
Last edited 1/16/2013 12:11 PM by TwoSaints
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Posted: 1/16/2013 12:38 PM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
I do not disagree with you on the fact we could have used the t.o.- in fact, I say, I wish we had called the time-out.
I do think it is very important you know you have a time-out.
I will say CKS called more "flow" or momentum time outs than normal last night.
Truly, with three seconds left, many think it is a draw as to who benefits - a good offense knows the play it is going to run and the d does not. So if the d just clogs up the inbound and sticks to the guy who wants the ball, they are usually ok over three seconds. So I do not mind the lack of the time-out by the d - except that we apparently needed and wanted it and didn't call it. (or the ref did not recognize it) Still, players on the court should know not to give them a free roll the ball up the court - and somebody has to stick to henderson like glue. Again, it is a young team. I do not mind the lack of a time out if we execute the basics. It is never good not to know how many time-outs you have left.... if that is what happened.
And fouling with one second is great if you pull it off just right - but a tip-in is good up to .2 I believe - and given the rebounding on foul shots in that game - there is no way i would have called for a foul there... especially not on Henderson who probably practices perfect misses. If we intentionally foul as henderson releases at one second - we lose that game in regulation. Period.
Last edited 1/16/2013 12:40 PM by roanoke
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Posted: 1/16/2013 12:55 PM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
vusportsfan wrote:What you say about about helter skelter is usually on offense not defense as almost all coaches and as we saw KS even wanted a timeout to setup D.. A few years ago we lost to UK in Memorial by 1 point. In a somewhat similar situation, Vandy was down by 1 and inbounding with only a few seconds left. We had no timeouts, but Calipari called time. CKS drew up a play and we ended up losing when Ogilvy had a pretty good look at a 15ish foot jumper that rimmed out. After the game Calipari called himself "stupid" for calling the TO, saying that all it accomplished was to give Stallings a chance to draw up a play. Hindsight is 20/20. Maybe it would have been good to set up our defense. Maybe that would have just let Ole Miss set up a play to spring a guy open. Obviously this way worked out badly, but no, it is not universal that all coaches want that TO, as at least one chamionship coach called taking a TO in that situation "stupid". |
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Posted: 1/16/2013 1:02 PM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
TO or no, the main problem was that for some reason, Dai Jon Parker left his man to make UM pick the ball up to start the clock. I understand what he was trying to do, but unfortunately his man was Marshall Henderson, the one guy you cannot leave alone in that situation.
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Posted: 1/16/2013 1:03 PM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
TwoSaints wrote:
vusportsfan wrote:Roanoke, can you believe or have you ever seen a coach in the last few seconds of any game look to his bench to ask if they had a timeout? Versus jumping right in after the make and calling the timeout he should have known about.
What you say about about helter skelter is usually on offense not defense as almost all coaches and as we saw KS even wanted a timeout to setup D.. Our guys ran from inbounds area with 3 guys all the way back inside their 3 line with a late Odom attempt to meet Henderson and got within maybe 10ft allowing open shot from a guy that actually has the range like JJ did and even Lofton did.. so in fact with 3 seconds and we literally had 1 guy that stayed focused but fell down versus having 2 or 3 chasing the ball. and fouling is taught to occur at the 1 second mark making the rebound putbacks we saw earlier impossible because those all were caught and took 3 to 4 seconds themselves and the Henderson 3 after missed ft by ole miss again couldnt have occurred due to time limits..
Just a great 3 point shooting game in the 1st half, then about 8 minutes of moving the ball to get good looks inside and then about 12 minutes of true helter skelter out of control BB allowing them to take over all momentum. Gregg Popovich is arguably the best active coach in the world and he does it all the time. He has an assistant whose job is to keep track of timeouts so that he doesn't have to. Honestly, I think Kevin yelled timeout at the refs in plenty of time, it's just that it's really hard to hear at the end of the game. It's just one of those things that happens. Most coaches rely on an assistant to keep track of timeouts. If anyone dropped the ball, it was the assistant failing to notify Stallings immediately. He should never have been forced to ask the bench. After that, the onus is then on the head coach to call a timeout. I don't think there is enough space here to note all of the many coaches who have made the wrong decision in the heat of the moment, so I'll just note a recent mistake in a big game. Roy Williams has been bashed his entire career for the way he manages timeouts, so it's not a surprise to me that Stallings has often faced similar criticism. As for last night, it looked to me like Stallings tried to get a timeout before the ball was inbounds, but Anthony Jordan would not give it to him. Would he have been able to get the timeout without the confusion? Probably. Would the timeout have changed the outcome of the game? No idea. Of course, I'm sure this will necessitate twelve posts from a certain someone (please don't quote his posts in the future) on why Stallings needs to fire his assistants.
Last edited 1/16/2013 1:03 PM by Dore2004
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Posted: 1/16/2013 1:13 PM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
roanoke wrote: I do not disagree with you on the fact we could have used the t.o.- in fact, I say, I wish we had called the time-out.
I do think it is very important you know you have a time-out.
I will say CKS called more "flow" or momentum time outs than normal last night.
Truly, with three seconds left, many think it is a draw as to who benefits - a good offense knows the play it is going to run and the d does not. So if the d just clogs up the inbound and sticks to the guy who wants the ball, they are usually ok over three seconds. So I do not mind the lack of the time-out by the d - except that we apparently needed and wanted it and didn't call it. (or the ref did not recognize it) Still, players on the court should know not to give them a free roll the ball up the court - and somebody has to stick to henderson like glue. Again, it is a young team. I do not mind the lack of a time out if we execute the basics. It is never good not to know how many time-outs you have left.... if that is what happened.
And fouling with one second is great if you pull it off just right - but a tip-in is good up to .2 I believe - and given the rebounding on foul shots in that game - there is no way i would have called for a foul there... especially not on Henderson who probably practices perfect misses. If we intentionally foul as henderson releases at one second - we lose that game in regulation. Period. The foul decision really should come down to mathematical probabilities combined with an a nalysis of the talent on the floor. The only analysis I have seen was in a SI article from a few years ago. According to that article, up three with under seven seconds the odds are as follows: • A 19 percent chance of getting sent to overtime if you hunker down and play no-fouls defense. • A 4.9 percent chance of getting sent to overtime if you foul correctly. • A 0.67 percent chance of going to overtime by accidentally fouling a three-point shooter. • A 0.13 percent chance of losing in regulation by accidentally fouling the shooter. • A 0.16 percent chance of losing in regulation off a made first free throw, missed second, offensive rebound and a three. Fenlon always fouls, because he likes the 1-in-20 odds versus the 1-in-5s.
The article reflects that very good coaches disagree about this, so I don't think it's as simple as 1-in-20 vs. 1-in-5, but the numbers were still interesting. Of course, they confirmed my preconceived bias too. I also believe that the percentages would even more starkly favor fouling under three seconds than under seven seconds.
While Ole Miss had an advantage inside, I'd like to think our bigs are capable of either getting the rebound or at least preventing a tying basket in under two seconds. I'd be supporting Coach Stallings if our team fouled and the game still ended up going to OT.
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Posted: 1/16/2013 2:20 PM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
and i am not disagreeing with you in concept, either.
My point is not that it is stupid to foul up three - because it is generally smart.
My point is that given the way that game went - I would not be inclined to do it...
and given that henderson did hit his shot - if we had intentionally fouled someone else at the one second mark as was suggested (not by you) - the other guy would have had two shots to win the game as it turned out because henderson's three went down.
I do think we can all agree the last three seconds were kind of screwed up. That is not an indictment of the coach or the players - but it was not good.
Last edited 1/16/2013 2:22 PM by roanoke
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Posted: 1/16/2013 2:32 PM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
roanoke wrote: and i am not disagreeing with you in concept, either.
My point is not that it is stupid to foul up three - because it is generally smart.
My point is that given the way that game went - I would not be inclined to do it...
and given that henderson did hit his shot - if we had intentionally fouled someone else at the one second mark as was suggested (not by you) - the other guy would have had two shots to win the game as it turned out because henderson's three went down.
I do think we can all agree the last three seconds were kind of screwed up. That is not an indictment of the coach or the players - but it was not good. I would have fouled on the ball around half court. After that, the threat of fouling in the act of shooting becomes too great. I agree that any suggestion of fouling away from the ball is foolish - it also risks the threat of an intentional foul call awarding shots plus the ball. Mark Few agrees with you, so you've got good company. I actually think it's fine to indict our coach and players to a point, just not to the point it gets done on this board. Many think that Stallings should have called a timeout (in my opinion, a bigger indictment of his assistants than of him, given that he tried to get the timeout as soon as he learned we had one left). I think we should have fouled. Many agree that Parker needed to stay on Henderson like glue. Everyone agrees that the players need to realize that the free throw line is the same distance from the basket in games as in practice. Next time, I hope things go differently. More importantly, I hope they go differently next season, when I expect this team to be playing more meaningful games and fighting for a NCAA Tournament spot. |
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Posted: 1/16/2013 4:19 PM
Re: better play - still stealing defeat from the jaws of victory
--------------------------------------------- --- TwoSaints wrote: vusportsfan wrote:Roanoke, can you believe or have you ever seen a coach in the last few seconds of any game look to his bench to ask if they had a timeout? Versus jumping right in after the make and calling the timeout he should have known about.
What you say about about helter skelter is usually on offense not defense as almost all coaches and as we saw KS even wanted a timeout to setup D.. Our guys ran from inbounds area with 3 guys all the way back inside their 3 line with a late Odom attempt to meet Henderson and got within maybe 10ft allowing open shot from a guy that actually has the range like JJ did and even Lofton did.. so in fact with 3 seconds and we literally had 1 guy that stayed focused but fell down versus having 2 or 3 chasing the ball. and fouling is taught to occur at the 1 second mark making the rebound putbacks we saw earlier impossible because those all were caught and took 3 to 4 seconds themselves and the Henderson 3 after missed ft by ole miss again couldnt have occurred due to time limits..
Just a great 3 point shooting game in the 1st half, then about 8 minutes of moving the ball to get good looks inside and then about 12 minutes of true helter skelter out of control BB allowing them to take over all momentum.
Gregg Popovich is arguably the best active coach in the world and he does it all the time. He has an assistant whose job is to keep track of timeouts so that he doesn't have to. Honestly, I think Kevin yelled timeout at the refs in plenty of time, it's just that it's really hard to hear at the end of the game. It's just one of those things that happens. --------------------------------------------- Given we were in Memorial Gym and we had just hit a would-be game winning shot, its plausible that hearing couldve been tough. PRACTICE LIKE A CHAMPION
PLAY LIKE A CHAMPION
LIVE LIKE A CHAMPION
ANCHOR DOWN 'DORES! |
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