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JuCo Recruits

Posted: 6/18/2012 3:15 PM

JuCo Recruits 


Hope we do well again in this area.
I think it is worth the risk.
The Coaches can see what they are getting- the players are 2 years older, more mature, usually bigger, and already over being homesick. Most know about attending class and study hall, and if he is not a good fit- they only have 2 years invested.
K State has done very well going Juco.
I also like the fact that the Juco Coaches can vouch for their work habits and character.
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Posted: 6/18/2012 5:07 PM

Re: JuCo Recruits 


Article and discussion on another site says Tubs is going to take more than usual this coming year again. Discussed if this is a good ploy, a desperate ploy or a needed one due to attrition and or lack of HS recruits willing to come here or none available?

From the camps there has not been the reaction from 2013 recruits like last year. Is the due to last years record or due to no one really making a splash?

From what I can tell there were a lot of 2014/15 recruits that did recieve offers.
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Posted: 6/18/2012 5:48 PM

Re: JuCo Recruits 


If we're going to take more juco's again it may also be that cTT knows he will have only this year and possibly the year after to get the ship turned around or it will be someone else doing the coaching and recruiting.  Most kids coming out of high school would not be matured enough physically to be playing at their best by then if they are in this years class.
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Posted: 6/18/2012 7:00 PM

RE: JuCo Recruits 


Despite false belief, Tubs is recruiting for the long haul. It's looking like some guys either aren't committing or we are just losing some recruiting battles. The juco route is for depth purposes and not to replace starters. If it happens to turn out that they should start, then so be it. But don't look at juco recruiting as a desparation move to find starters. He just realizes after this past year just how bad it can get without depth
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Posted: 6/18/2012 7:41 PM

RE: JuCo Recruits 



yanceyRedRaider wrote: Despite false belief, Tubs is recruiting for the long haul. It's looking like some guys either aren't committing or we are just losing some recruiting battles. The juco route is for depth purposes and not to replace starters. If it happens to turn out that they should start, then so be it. But don't look at juco recruiting as a desparation move to find starters. He just realizes after this past year just how bad it can get without depth
Yance, 
I really, really hope you know what u r talking about.
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Posted: 6/18/2012 7:49 PM

Re: JuCo Recruits 


I think we're going to take a couple of JUCO OL. 

I think he should have gone heavy JUCO D in 2010 but that is hindsight.

The key is getting some immediate contribution like we almost did w/ Scott & like we expect to w/ Will Smith.  Unfortunately, too often we get an adjustment year then 1 good year. Hopefully 1 good year

Most schools struggle w/ proper use of JUCOs & only Snyder seems to understand the long-term use of JUCOs. I don't know what he does but he does it & he did it twice.

Well, after rambling, I'm fine w/ another large JUCO class this year.

Beat the hated "insert name of next opponent"!

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Posted: 6/18/2012 9:14 PM

Re: JuCo Recruits 


I feel good if Note feels good.  I also expect the team to be improved this year which should make it easier to sell the program.
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Posted: 6/19/2012 6:15 AM

Re: JuCo Recruits 


My view on Jucos is this. I don't see a big problem with it for skill postions. Let's say we go the high school route almost exclusively and we get another player the likes of Crabtree. Great first year and talk of going high in draft if he decides to leave school early. Plays 2 years...3 years tops.

Now we get a very serviceable player in Jr. College that will most likely stay 2 years to increase draft potential so we have 2 years of service either way or 3 years for those that have 3 years of eligibility (honestly don't know all rules concerning this).

We don't have the track record of Oklahoma or Texas in keeping first round talent for their full eligibility ( Crabs and didn't Hanspard leave early?).

Most Jucos are game ready but there are some that aren't so you have issues in this area.

Could we get a future 1st or 2nd rounder the JUCO route...highly unlikely. But if we get that great type of player that is highly regarded and get 2 years out of them I say go for it (Will Smith might be one...would say Foster but don't think he will get enough touches in loaded backfield).

Now I don't think getting offensive linemen this route is a good idea unless we can get the services of a great addition...they seem to take longer to develope and most coaches will tell you that this unit needs more consistency (same players playing together than any other unit in most cases). Now a good sub or fill-in wouldn't hurt. This is JMO. Note seems to be dead on when it comes to recruiting and he thinks offensive linemen are a good bargin this route.
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Posted: 6/19/2012 6:49 AM

Re: JuCo Recruits 



C2L2DRaider wrote: My view on Jucos is this. I don't see a big problem with it for skill postions.  

Now I don't think getting offensive linemen this route is a good idea unless we can get the services of a great addition...they seem to take longer to develope and most coaches will tell you that this unit needs more consistency (same players playing together than any other unit in most cases). Now a good sub or fill-in wouldn't hurt. This is JMO. Note seems to be dead on when it comes to recruiting and he thinks offensive linemen are a good bargin this route.
Theoretically, the JUCO OL players should be developed already.  noidea

Leach put a big goose egg in recruiting JUCO OL but did well w/ JUCO DL, and Leach signed some top JUCO OL prospects.. If Fortenberry is a backup for 2 years & plays in every game, Tubs' JUCO OL are better than Leach's. Unless you count Keown that Leach found in Hargrave Prep School.

I have no idea how recruiting production breaks out like positions like that. I'd think it'd be more even across the positions. 

The reasons I think we'll sign JUCO OL are that there was a big push to develop RSFR Clark this spring but we don't hear much about any other RS FR while we have 3 Srs starting on the OL, plus, we've offered at least 4 JUCO OL & recruiting 4 more that may get an offer. We have the need and there is the activity in jucoland.

Look at the 2013 starting OL, LT Fortenberry, RT Clark, RG Carpenter, ????????????

Beat the hated "insert name of next opponent"!

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Posted: 6/19/2012 8:59 AM

RE: JuCo Recruits 


don't forget the two brothers from Arlington.
Morales should start at center for 3 or 4 years.
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Posted: 6/19/2012 9:39 AM

RE: JuCo Recruits 



Moonlight wrote: don't forget the two brothers from Arlington.
Morales should start at center for 3 or 4 years.
When was the last time you heard much about those guys? There was no rush to get either ready this spring as the staff did w/ Clark. Alfredo played last season & will play some again this season, but does he look like a potential starter? Have we heard anything about Anthony since his shoulder surgery?

Hopefully both these guys mature into starters or quality rotation guys because we really need it, but they didn't get a lot of spring attention and we're heavily recruiting JUCO OL.

Beat the hated "insert name of next opponent"!

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Posted: 6/19/2012 10:46 AM

Re: JuCo Recruits 


I have heard we are one of the most involved BCS schools in JC recruiting this year.  We definitely are trying to get some top Juco OL, and that is most likely needed as we just lost 3 starters/contributors to graduation and will lose 3 more after this season.  Secondary is another big area of need since we will lose 3 of 4 starters with little experience behind them, and this has already been addressed but could sign more.  I could see us getting more LBers since this has been a weak spot in Tubs recruiting (not discounting the young guys' ability to develop - we just haven't had a big splash from the HS ranks).  I could see them taking another WR since we will lose 5, but it is not needed based on the '11, '12 & '13 classes.

I don't know what to make of it - I think our bad season is contributing to us losing battles with HS guys as they continue to commit earlier and earlier.  If we do have a good 2012 season it will probably contribute more towards our 2014 class.  A lot of the JC guys can enroll early and some even have 3 years to play, so if we can get more of these guys I am all for it.  Is it really a high amount to sign 9 guys again if our total class is 26 again?  I don't think so, but if we are signing a class of 15 with half JCs then I will panick.

Last edited 6/19/2012 10:57 AM by RaiderReds

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Posted: 6/19/2012 11:07 AM

Re: JuCo Recruits 



RaiderReds wrote:

I have heard we are one of the most involved BCS schools in JC recruiting this year.  We definitely are trying to get some top Juco OL, and that is most likely needed as we just lost 3 starters/contributors to graduation and will lose 3 more after this season.  Secondary is another big area of need since we will lose 3 of 4 starters with little experience behind them, and this has already been addressed but could sign more.  I could see us getting more LBers since this has been a weak spot in Tubs recruiting (not discounting the young guys' ability to develop - we just haven't had a big splash from the HS ranks).  I could see them taking another WR since we will lose 5, but it is not needed based on the '11, '12 & '13 classes.

I don't know what to make of it - I think our bad season is contributing to us losing battles with HS guys as they continue to commit earlier and earlier.  If we do have a good 2012 season it will probably contribute more towards our 2014 class.  A lot of the JC guys can enroll early and some even have 3 years to play, so if we can get more of these guys I am all for it.  Is it really a high amount to sign 9 guys again if our total class is 26 again?  I don't think so, but if we are signing a class of 15 with half JCs then I will panick.


I think its a combo of things including Tubs limited time frame to get the ship back on track.  The lack of development of his HS players at certain positions, our weakening recruiting of HS players against our competition due to last year, and lack of numbers of HS players at certain positions from last classes.


We should go heavy in JC OL because we will be losing alot and did not take that many HS in 2011, and got very little in terms of HS last class at OL. Their are depth problems likely in the future if we do not. This is on tubs.

We also have a lack of HS LB from the past two classes.  I would be all for adding some help for the JC ranks though I do not like making up for past class failures by having to rely on JC.  But I do not think Dees, Sam E, K Williams are going to be what we need to win in this league.

Adding a High end JC at DL, and CB is fine as well. we need help there too.

what we do not need imo is JC at WR, Safety, or RB.  But the good RB are all committed elsewhere and we still have some injury concerns at RB so I guess it would be looked at.

Overall relying on heavy JC recruiting is not a sign of a good program, KSU is an exception with their coach and recruiting challenges. This needs to be short term.
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Posted: 6/19/2012 6:55 PM

RE: JuCo Recruits 


Right now- we have the same challenges.
I think Spike and Mike both used JUCOs only to fill depth.
We seem to be going further than that.
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Posted: 6/20/2012 2:13 AM

RE: JuCo Recruits 


Which is weird considering our signed classes the last few years.

---------------------------------------------
--- Moonlight wrote:

Right now- we have the same challenges.
I think Spike and Mike both used JUCOs only to fill depth.
We seem to be going further than that.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 6/20/2012 9:35 AM

RE: JuCo Recruits 


The signed classes of the past two years are talented, but still very young (true sophs or redshirt freshman). Juco brings older more experienced players into the mix, and fills areas of obvious gaps. That is assuming that we actually hit on the Jucos, which is never anywhere near a sure thing.
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Posted: 6/20/2012 10:28 AM

RE: JuCo Recruits 



C2L2DRaider wrote: Which is weird considering our signed classes the last few years.

---------------------------------------------
--- Moonlight wrote:

Right now- we have the same challenges.
I think Spike and Mike both used JUCOs only to fill depth.
We seem to be going further than that.

---------------------------------------------
Mike used JUCOs to heavily rebuild a few times. 

2001 - 7 JUCOs (28% of class), 3 were high profile JUCOs, 2 were medium type recruits, & 2 were reaches. AP was great for us, when healthy. Unfortunately, that was about half the time as we essentially got 1 full season out of him in 2 years. McKinney was a good DL for us & for a bit early on in 2001, was easily our best DL. Then Hunt woke up. Ratliff was supposed to be a talent but didn't work out. We signed 2 JUCO CBs; the big name was a ok but the other was pretty good. They both provided 2 years of starting to replace all the departing the SRs of 2000.  Rangel was a serviceable rotation S for 3 seasons and Loliki provided someone to cheer for in blowouts. Then Leach said he was out of the JUCO business.  

2003 - 8 JUCOs (35% of class). 4 DBs, 1 of which had 4 years of eligibility & started 3 seasons. We got rotation duties from 2 others. That was the year Leach said the DB problem was fixed as we signed 7, 5 showed up, & 3 gave us quality starts for 2+ years. Unfortunately, that was pretty much it for JUCO production from that class. 

2004 - 7 JUCOs (28% of class), was a pretty well thought of JUCO class & we got good production from Slay, Brinkley, Bake, & RoJo.  All in all, a really good JUCO class that combined w/ the HS production from that class made it Leach's 2nd best class behind the 2006 class.

Beat the hated "insert name of next opponent"!

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Posted: 6/20/2012 11:00 AM

RE: JuCo Recruits 


If we want to be at the top of the conference, our depth chart has to be capable of getting us there. I'm sure Tubs is taking all the quality HS talent he can get, but if there are positions of need he isn't sure he can adequately fill through the HS ranks, he's going JUCO. If that's what it takes to get us where we want to be, I have no problem with that.
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Posted: 6/20/2012 11:08 AM

RE: JuCo Recruits 



agriraider wrote: If we want to be at the top of the conference, our depth chart has to be capable of getting us there. I'm sure Tubs is taking all the quality HS talent he can get, but if there are positions of need he isn't sure he can adequately fill through the HS ranks, he's going JUCO. If that's what it takes to get us where we want to be, I have no problem with that.
Exactly. This perception that he is just giving up on HS kids or that he's going JUCO for immediate production is off base. It's to fill gaps and build depth and you hope one or more actually emerge as a leader and/or starter like Will Smith and Sadale Foster have done so far.

Any coach that leaves a gap due to refusing to go juco should worry about his job. So the perception is quite ironic.
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Posted: 6/20/2012 11:33 AM

Re: JuCo Recruits 


It is fundamentally sound to have a program established and built aroung players from Hs who are playing the schemes extremely well as physically and mentally mature juniors and seniors.

If you don't have those juniors and seniors then you either live with the loss or try to do something to span the gap of time that must transpire until you get them.

The current effort at JC's looks like the thinking of a staff that has decided to try to do something other than wait.
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