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9-9-9
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Posted: 10/22/2011 9:06 PM
9-9-9
Any one had a chance to look at Hermans plan?
Any thoughts?
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Posted: 10/23/2011 8:19 AM
Re: 9-9-9
ConwayCock wrote: Any one had a chance to look at Hermans plan?
Any thoughts? just started myself to educate myself. Always been a proponent of "simple is better". A flat tax, or fair tax..or national VAT in exchange for eliminating other taxes always made sense. But as soon as you mention that such simplicity almost has to require the elimination of deductions for mortgages, charitable donations, ect...then the shrill screaming from special interests begins... and all further discussion is drowned out.. |
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Posted: 10/23/2011 12:09 PM
RE: 9-9-9
I like the plan, but it will be hard to sell the sales tax to people. It should wourk out better for most people. The only people it will really affect are the ones who are not currently paying anything. My only concern is putting in a mechanism that would prevent congress from easily raising that rate.
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Posted: 10/23/2011 6:10 PM
RE: 9-9-9
I agree with both of you. Looking for somthing simple; easy to track. i agree the ones that dont pay will scream the loudest about actually having to pay. I always thought some sort of flat tax made sense.
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Posted: 10/23/2011 10:14 PM
RE: 9-9-9
It's terrible unless you are well above middle class. No deductions. A consumption tax of 9% PLUS your local taxes (mine would be 15% on every purchase) which includes all healthcare products and services. Also, conservatives have been saying for years that taxing them at such a high rate will cause then to raise prices dramatically. Who pays the higher prices? Consumers. It ends up being a regressive tax system, and that just won't work.
Plus, like the so-called Fair Tax, there's no chance that the current tax code will be completely dismantled. This will just be an excuse to hit us with a national sales tax on top of our current income tax system.
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Posted: 10/25/2011 12:43 PM
RE: 9-9-9
Yeah, this 9-9-9 plan would be a disaster. Worst part is, Cain touts it as a transition to the "Fair Tax".
First off, we would never get to the "Fair Tax". We'd be stuck with a two track Federal Tax system. Oy vey.
Second, even if it did get to the "Fair Tax", what's good about that? The "Fair Tax" is one of the stupidest reform ideas ever. I can't believe that so many are duped by it.
Last edited 10/25/2011 12:53 PM by BrookhavenGamecock
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Posted: 10/25/2011 2:35 PM
RE: 9-9-9
One good point about Cain's plan: it makes more sense than Perry's.
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- southcar
- Scout Team
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Posted: 10/26/2011 1:10 AM
RE: 9-9-9
theZero wrote: It's terrible unless you are well above middle class. No deductions. A consumption tax of 9% PLUS your local taxes (mine would be 15% on every purchase) which includes all healthcare products and services. Also, conservatives have been saying for years that taxing them at such a high rate will cause then to raise prices dramatically. Who pays the higher prices? Consumers. It ends up being a regressive tax system, and that just won't work.
Plus, like the so-called Fair Tax, there's no chance that the current tax code will be completely dismantled. This will just be an excuse to hit us with a national sales tax on top of our current income tax system. It wouldn't be that bad to encourage people to save more since current estimate state that the american people only say 2%(2$ out of every 100$) of their wealth |
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Posted: 10/26/2011 9:11 AM
RE: 9-9-9
southcar wrote:
theZero wrote: It's terrible unless you are well above middle class. No deductions. A consumption tax of 9% PLUS your local taxes (mine would be 15% on every purchase) which includes all healthcare products and services. Also, conservatives have been saying for years that taxing them at such a high rate will cause then to raise prices dramatically. Who pays the higher prices? Consumers. It ends up being a regressive tax system, and that just won't work.
Plus, like the so-called Fair Tax, there's no chance that the current tax code will be completely dismantled. This will just be an excuse to hit us with a national sales tax on top of our current income tax system. It wouldn't be that bad to encourage people to save more since current estimate state that the american people only say 2%(2$ out of every 100$) of their wealth I'd love if something helped people save more, but raising taxes and consumer prices for the bottom 90% won't help with personal savings in any meaningful way. If all expenses go up 9% and consumer prices go up 2-10% (to make up for raised taxes on corporations) then that's a major hit to the wallet. The 9-9-9 plan does not exclude groceries, new cars, healthcare, etc. as far as I can tell. Living expenses will raise 10-20%. Plus if people save by not buying, what does that do for the economy? |
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Posted: 10/28/2011 9:03 AM
Re: 9-9-9
Too simple to work, but excellent campaign slogan. Genius. I'd vote for him for his business leadership alone.
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- southcar
- Scout Team
- Rating: 0.0/5 this site
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Posted: 10/30/2011 5:03 AM
RE: 9-9-9
theZero wrote:
southcar wrote:
theZero wrote: It's terrible unless you are well above middle class. No deductions. A consumption tax of 9% PLUS your local taxes (mine would be 15% on every purchase) which includes all healthcare products and services. Also, conservatives have been saying for years that taxing them at such a high rate will cause then to raise prices dramatically. Who pays the higher prices? Consumers. It ends up being a regressive tax system, and that just won't work.
Plus, like the so-called Fair Tax, there's no chance that the current tax code will be completely dismantled. This will just be an excuse to hit us with a national sales tax on top of our current income tax system. It wouldn't be that bad to encourage people to save more since current estimate state that the american people only say 2%(2$ out of every 100$) of their wealth I'd love if something helped people save more, but raising taxes and consumer prices for the bottom 90% won't help with personal savings in any meaningful way. If all expenses go up 9% and consumer prices go up 2-10% (to make up for raised taxes on corporations) then that's a major hit to the wallet. The 9-9-9 plan does not exclude groceries, new cars, healthcare, etc. as far as I can tell. Living expenses will raise 10-20%. Plus if people save by not buying, what does that do for the economy? I never said it was perfect, but that is why the VAT is so appealing as a tax system, because people with more money will usually buy more stuff, but it is regressive, as you pointed out. |
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Posted: 10/30/2011 9:41 AM
RE: 9-9-9
southcar wrote:
theZero wrote:
southcar wrote:
theZero wrote: It's terrible unless you are well above middle class. No deductions. A consumption tax of 9% PLUS your local taxes (mine would be 15% on every purchase) which includes all healthcare products and services. Also, conservatives have been saying for years that taxing them at such a high rate will cause then to raise prices dramatically. Who pays the higher prices? Consumers. It ends up being a regressive tax system, and that just won't work.
Plus, like the so-called Fair Tax, there's no chance that the current tax code will be completely dismantled. This will just be an excuse to hit us with a national sales tax on top of our current income tax system. It wouldn't be that bad to encourage people to save more since current estimate state that the american people only say 2%(2$ out of every 100$) of their wealth I'd love if something helped people save more, but raising taxes and consumer prices for the bottom 90% won't help with personal savings in any meaningful way. If all expenses go up 9% and consumer prices go up 2-10% (to make up for raised taxes on corporations) then that's a major hit to the wallet. The 9-9-9 plan does not exclude groceries, new cars, healthcare, etc. as far as I can tell. Living expenses will raise 10-20%. Plus if people save by not buying, what does that do for the economy? I never said it was perfect, but that is why the VAT is so appealing as a tax system, because people with more money will usually buy more stuff, but it is regressive, as you pointed out. Also, human nature is such that people will do everything they can to avoid paying it. There will be an explosion of "off the radar" barter sites and web sites designed to avoid paying taxes. Oversees "tax free" havens will really explode. The only ones though who would really be able to take advantage of such opportunities??? The "1 %'ers"...of course. |
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Posted: 10/31/2011 8:02 PM
Re: 9-9-9
I think the 9-9-9 is at least headed in the right direction. Serious question...why are people so offended that the 49% of people who don't contribute a dime(but who reap most of the goodies) have to get a little skin in the game like the rest of us? These folks ride on the same streets, get the same security, get welfare, food stamps, and on, and on...9-9-9 at least forces the moochers to contribute a little. I think it's about dang time!
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Posted: 11/1/2011 8:46 AM
Re: 9-9-9
thats ot quite true either.
they DO contribute a dime...paying sales, gas, property etc taxes.
Not saying that they shouldnt also pay something in income, but lets face it, income taxes amount to less than half the taxes paid or collected. So they do pay taxes.
heres another question though.
if the poor should be forced to pay taxes, then should the rich at the same time be given tax cuts?
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Posted: 11/1/2011 10:15 AM
Re: 9-9-9
MAXCY124SC90 wrote: I think the 9-9-9 is at least headed in the right direction. Serious question...why are people so offended that the 49% of people who don't contribute a dime(but who reap most of the goodies) have to get a little skin in the game like the rest of us? These folks ride on the same streets, get the same security, get welfare, food stamps, and on, and on...9-9-9 at least forces the moochers to contribute a little. I think it's about dang time! What cockntaterland says is true. Personally, I pay my fair share in taxes both as a family and as a business. But someone with a family making ~$40k/year is still paying taxes. "Streets and security" are for the most part paid through property taxes. So if they pay them first hand (direct to the county/state) or second hand (via rent/lease and the property owner pays the county), then they DO have the same amount of skin in the game. Social Security & Medicare are separate taxes, and are not included in the "they don't pay any taxes" white lie. Plus, raise food taxes 9% and prices 2-9% and you're going to see quite a few more people applying for food stamps... |
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Posted: 11/1/2011 1:28 PM
Re: 9-9-9
1/2 the country pays ZERO federal income taxes...that is not a white lie...it's an inconvenient truth. Also, when a corporation goes from paying 28% tax to 9% tax, do you think prices will go up or down? How about illegals and drug dealers that pay no income taxes now. Could we not use their input? The security I'm referring to is national security...which is paid for with Federal taxes...so 1/2 the country does not pay for this service.
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Posted: 11/1/2011 1:50 PM
Re: 9-9-9
Seriously, you do understand that the "rich" already pay most of the taxes in this country? Therefore, when tax cuts are proposed, how do you not cut their taxes? You can't cut taxes for people who don't pay any(federal income). The idea that you can help the poor by punishing the rich is incorrect. Do we need to get rid of loopholes? Of course. Everybody is for that...except GE, maybe.
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Posted: 11/1/2011 3:02 PM
Re: 9-9-9
MAXCY124SC90 wrote: 1/2 the country pays ZERO federal income taxes...that is not a white lie...it's an inconvenient truth. Also, when a corporation goes from paying 28% tax to 9% tax, do you think prices will go up or down? How about illegals and drug dealers that pay no income taxes now. Could we not use their input? The security I'm referring to is national security...which is paid for with Federal taxes...so 1/2 the country does not pay for this service. Right. Federal income taxes. Thanks for clarifying that. Because previously you stated that they "don't contribute a dime" and "have to get a little skin in the game." But in fact they do contribute and have skin in the game. Glad we agree because "federal income tax" does not include Social security deductions, or Medicare deductions. It doesn't include state & local taxes, property taxes, or sales tax. That does not included "embedded" taxes that flat/fair taxers are so fond of talking about. And it's not as though the federal taxes aren't paid. It's just that people take advantage of income tax deductions. They have children, property, investments, etc. If the deductions are available then they are fools for not taking advantage of them. About national security - it is over 50% of our national budget. Most of that money isn't from taxpayers, its from future taxpayers. Regardless, it seems that cutting expenses there might save us some money, right? Also, it is interesting that probably 80%+ of enlisted military is in that lower half that pays ZERO federal income taxes, after deductions. Who do they think they are anyway? A bunch of freeloaders! Corporate taxes would go from 28% to 9%, sure. FYI - The 28% you quote is on profit. There's several ways to lower that number, most notably by investing in the business itself. But it's not as though you would see a 19% reduction in prices. Expenses alone would go up 9% minimum, which would raise prices probably 9-18%. Yes, you would pay less in taxes for employees (under the most ideal circumstances) but there's nothing that guarantees that states won't raise taxes out of necessity to make up for federal shortfalls. I would also bet that if 9-9-9 is as "perfect" as the Fair Tax then employee pay will need to be cut for the economic model to come close to working. |
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Posted: 11/1/2011 3:25 PM
Re: 9-9-9
MAXCY124SC90 wrote: Seriously, you do understand that the "rich" already pay most of the taxes in this country? Therefore, when tax cuts are proposed, how do you not cut their taxes? You can't cut taxes for people who don't pay any(federal income). The idea that you can help the poor by punishing the rich is incorrect. Do we need to get rid of loopholes? Of course. Everybody is for that...except GE, maybe. They pay most of the taxes because they make most of the money and have most of the wealth, by a LARGE margin. The top 1% of this country owns 38% of the wealth. The bottom 80% owns 7% of the wealth (and again, I assume this includes both of us). The bottom 50% owns 2.5% of the wealth. Increasing income taxes 3% on the top 2% of taxpayers (returning to the Clinton era tax rate) for 10 years raises the same amount of money as taking ONE HALF of everything that the bottom 50% owns. But who says we need tax cuts? You like the 9-9-9 plan - that's a tax increase for most people as you keep pointing out. It's only a tax cut for the top 20% of the country, really. |
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Posted: 11/1/2011 3:45 PM
Re: 9-9-9
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