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Whatever gun control Chicago is trying

Posted: 07/07/2014 2:39 PM

Whatever gun control Chicago is trying 


doesn't seem to be working. 82 shot over the weekend.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/...0,5439185.story
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Posted: 07/07/2014 3:17 PM

Map of shootings in Chicago since Jan 1 


1,129.   Look at the month of June on the right hand side.   Amazing carnage.  I would not want to be a police officer anywhere.

  http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/shootings

Last edited 07/07/2014 4:26 PM by neodymian60

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Posted: 07/07/2014 4:27 PM

has anyone done the math? 


number of homicides in Chicago vs number of US soldiers KIA in either Afghanistan or Iraq?
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Posted: 07/07/2014 5:11 PM

what would you recommend? 


The NRA has argued before USSC successfully to have several of Chicago's ordinances struck down.

The chief of police wants more controls, presumably along the lines of what Scalia stated in the DC v. Heller decision to be entirely legal, but which NRA has fought against nonetheless.

Given the carnage, are you willing to advocates guns for everybody?  Or, bring in the National Guard, lock the whole place down, and do a house-to-house, apartment-to-apartment search for illegal weapons?

So, what is *your* answer?  Your post sounds sarcastic and cynical; maybe you don't mean it that way, in which case I must apologize; but if you do, then please provide a solution which is sustainable and will pass USSC muster.
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Posted: 07/07/2014 5:31 PM

Re: Whatever gun control Chicago is tryingHAND OUT MORE FREE 


CHEESE.  ARM EVERYBODY, AND LET THEM THIN OUT THE HERD.  WE SHOULD DO THE SAME THING IN IRAQ.  THEN, ONCE THEY'VE DECIMATED EACH OTHER, MOP UP.  LOOK, THIS IS A DEMOCRAT PROBLEM IN CHICAGO, JUST LIKE IT'S AN IRAQ/MUSLIM PROBLEM IN IRAQ.  SO LET THE NATIVES DEAL WITH IT.  RAHM, OBAMA, YOU KNOW, THE LOCALS...
"...I thought something is brewing inside the head of this Coach. He sees something in me, some kind of raw talent that he can mold. But that's when I felt the handcuffs go on."

Jack Handy

Last edited 07/08/2014 8:36 AM by johnnyo53

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Posted: 07/07/2014 5:40 PM

Re: what would you recommend? 



mendicant98 wrote: The NRA has argued before USSC successfully to have several of Chicago's ordinances struck down.

The chief of police wants more controls, presumably along the lines of what Scalia stated in the DC v. Heller decision to be entirely legal, but which NRA has fought against nonetheless.

Given the carnage, are you willing to advocates guns for everybody?  Or, bring in the National Guard, lock the whole place down, and do a house-to-house, apartment-to-apartment search for illegal weapons?

So, what is *your* answer?  Your post sounds sarcastic and cynical; maybe you don't mean it that way, in which case I must apologize; but if you do, then please provide a solution which is sustainable and will pass USSC muster.
What we do know is that Chicago's answer doesn't work.  So let's stop doubling down on a failed policy.  There is a direct correlation between high gun violence and restrictive gun laws. 

As someone said, if inanimate objects are the problem, Rosie O'Donnell ought to sue all spoon manufacturers. 

The problem is the breakdown of the family, in particular the resultant effects of single mothers, a drug culture and bad schools.  If you don't deal with the real causes you are not going to be able change the outcome.

Where our President could do some real good is to advocate for the things that he has actually demonstrated in his own life - the value of marriage and education and a devotion to the welfare of his children.
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Posted: 07/07/2014 5:47 PM

Exactly, amen Gerald!!! 


and FWLIW,  Patrick Moynihan pointed this out this salient fact/solution 40+ years ago...

and in all those ensuing 40 years, Big government failed to fix.... a major sociological issue

Last edited 07/07/2014 5:53 PM by FrankO

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Posted: 07/07/2014 6:38 PM

Re: what would you recommend? 


There is not a direct connection/correlation between high rates of gun violence, and restrictive gun laws.

There are, however, other correlations:  see the graph under #2 of this link.
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Posted: 07/07/2014 6:44 PM

Re: what would you recommend? 


Additionally, if you look at the Mayor's web site, you will find all of your social solutions well-represented.

You won't, however, find your cheap shot on O'Donnell, which is about as non sequitur as they come.

Rather than cheap shots, or passing off parlor sociology as something no one else has discovered, try coming up with a substantive recommendation.

I'm serious.  No cheap shots.  No snide comments.  No swipes at the President.  Remember, we already tried public welfare, and we've rejected that.  AFDC, Cabrini Green, all of that.

Tell us something that will work.
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Posted: 07/07/2014 7:16 PM

Re: what would you recommend? 



mendicant98 wrote: Additionally, if you look at the Mayor's web site, you will find all of your social solutions well-represented.

You won't, however, find your cheap shot on O'Donnell, which is about as non sequitur as they come.

Rather than cheap shots, or passing off parlor sociology as something no one else has discovered, try coming up with a substantive recommendation.

I'm serious.  No cheap shots.  No snide comments.  No swipes at the President.  Remember, we already tried public welfare, and we've rejected that.  AFDC, Cabrini Green, all of that.

Tell us something that will work.

Mendi. Have you read the Heller decision? The Court makes it abundably clare thatit is NOT a decision that stops gun control laws. You simply can't pass in the guise of gun control laws that essentially outlaw guns.

What is the answer? I think that is a good question. First, is to not look at this as a gun control issue. Sorry. But you can pass 1,000 laws in Chicago tomorrow and these punks will still have plently of guns. So - I start on the social side. Much tougher than pretending that if we simply pass more gun laws this will stop. (I say that Mendi as a hater of guns and one that has no issue with gun control. Indeed I like it.)

Socially - I'd start with trying to reinstill some sense of family in the inner-city. And I mean nuclear family. Mom/Dad.  FATHERS matter.  It isn't politically correct to say that.  But it is true. 


Next - I'd  work on instilling the idea that education matters. That not only means improving schools (and I'd look for private contributions. I'd be all over the uber-rich to help support inner-city schools).   It also means pushing a value in the community that education matters. So when there is a back to school nite - someone actually shows up.  We have to talk to people about why education is the option.  And that involves selling the parents - not just the kids. 

I'd start looking at RICO laws to aggressively incarcerate gang members. They need to be broken up.   Yes that means locking up violent kids. At the same time - I'd stop prosecution on drug offenders. Those who are violent deserve to go to jail - in droves and for a long time  if necessary. Those who simply get high - they do not deserve jail time. Any more than that frat boy down the street.

I'd start getting every minority  leader I can think of -political, entertainment, athletic - to start talking abut this. Not in terms of what whitey is doing to us and what the govt can do for us (for that only leads to a maintenance of the status quo) . But in terms of what we are doing to ourselves and how we can help dig ourselves out of it. 

I'd aggressively deport any illegal immigrant that is convicted of a violent offense.  While also supporting amensty programs - ie if you truly want to be an American - a valued member of this society - we will help you.  As for "toughening the border" - on a going forward basis - lets discuss that as well.  Amensty and tough borders etc are not mutually exclusive propositions. 

I'd talk to business leaders in the area - white, black, yellow, brown,  to see what their ideas are.  Remember Jack Kemp's enterprize zones?  What happened to that idea.  And I'd be pushing like mad for the private sector to lead the way.   

I'd open the floor for discussion, ideas, debate etc.Gloves off  - let it fly.  I'd start with the proposition that either this changes - or you keep killing each other.  Your choice. 

But if all we are going to do is talk guns - forget it.  That leads to nothing but entrenched positions.  And it will go nowhere.

"I pledge - on the souls of my grandchildren - that I will not be the one to break the peace that we have made today."

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Posted: 07/07/2014 8:00 PM

Re: what would you recommend? 


I already alluded to Heller.

Yes I have read it, in its entirety.  Scalia made it abundantly clear what controls would pass muster.  Chicago has been trying to do that.  It does not appear to be working, but the police chief has been pushing for further controls which will pass USSC muster.  No telling if they will work.  I submit, however, that arming everyone will not work.

You make decent suggestions, but again have no idea what Emmanuel, or previous mayors, have sought to do.  Business enterprise zones?  Education reforms?  Family?  Gangs and RICO?  Emmanuel is all over them.  He understands the urgency.

But the reaction on this thread, so far, is simply to a headline, without bothering to dig deeper.  Followed by abundant assumptions.
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Posted: 07/08/2014 6:04 AM

Re: what would you recommend? 



lex24 wrote:
mendicant98 wrote: Additionally, if you look at the Mayor's web site, you will find all of your social solutions well-represented.

You won't, however, find your cheap shot on O'Donnell, which is about as non sequitur as they come.

Rather than cheap shots, or passing off parlor sociology as something no one else has discovered, try coming up with a substantive recommendation.

I'm serious.  No cheap shots.  No snide comments.  No swipes at the President.  Remember, we already tried public welfare, and we've rejected that.  AFDC, Cabrini Green, all of that.

Tell us something that will work.

Mendi. Have you read the Heller decision? The Court makes it abundably clare thatit is NOT a decision that stops gun control laws. You simply can't pass in the guise of gun control laws that essentially outlaw guns.

What is the answer? I think that is a good question. First, is to not look at this as a gun control issue. Sorry. But you can pass 1,000 laws in Chicago tomorrow and these punks will still have plently of guns. So - I start on the social side. Much tougher than pretending that if we simply pass more gun laws this will stop. (I say that Mendi as a hater of guns and one that has no issue with gun control. Indeed I like it.)

Socially - I'd start with trying to reinstill some sense of family in the inner-city. And I mean nuclear family. Mom/Dad.  FATHERS matter.  It isn't politically correct to say that.  But it is true. 


Next - I'd  work on instilling the idea that education matters. That not only means improving schools (and I'd look for private contributions. I'd be all over the uber-rich to help support inner-city schools).   It also means pushing a value in the community that education matters. So when there is a back to school nite - someone actually shows up.  We have to talk to people about why education is the option.  And that involves selling the parents - not just the kids. 

I'd start looking at RICO laws to aggressively incarcerate gang members. They need to be broken up.   Yes that means locking up violent kids. At the same time - I'd stop prosecution on drug offenders. Those who are violent deserve to go to jail - in droves and for a long time  if necessary. Those who simply get high - they do not deserve jail time. Any more than that frat boy down the street.

I'd start getting every minority  leader I can think of -political, entertainment, athletic - to start talking abut this. Not in terms of what whitey is doing to us and what the govt can do for us (for that only leads to a maintenance of the status quo) . But in terms of what we are doing to ourselves and how we can help dig ourselves out of it. 

I'd aggressively deport any illegal immigrant that is convicted of a violent offense.  While also supporting amensty programs - ie if you truly want to be an American - a valued member of this society - we will help you.  As for "toughening the border" - on a going forward basis - lets discuss that as well.  Amensty and tough borders etc are not mutually exclusive propositions. 

I'd talk to business leaders in the area - white, black, yellow, brown,  to see what their ideas are.  Remember Jack Kemp's enterprize zones?  What happened to that idea.  And I'd be pushing like mad for the private sector to lead the way.   

I'd open the floor for discussion, ideas, debate etc.Gloves off  - let it fly.  I'd start with the proposition that either this changes - or you keep killing each other.  Your choice. 

But if all we are going to do is talk guns - forget it.  That leads to nothing but entrenched positions.  And it will go nowhere.
Great post Lex!
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Posted: 07/10/2014 5:52 AM

Re: what would you recommend? 



mendicant98 wrote: I already alluded to Heller.

 Scalia made it abundantly clear what controls would pass muster.  Chicago has been trying to do that. 
That's because for those who believe in laws, passing a law to restrict or control firearms should have an effect on criminal access to firearms.

The ultimate issue is that criminals don't believe in laws.  

The penultimate issue is that the culture surrounding many of the criminals who commit "gun violence" actually endorses not only the violence, but also the flouting of the prohibition of the arms in the first place.  

More laws not being the solution, what is?  

I'd propose a few things:  

1.  Gun safety training available as a matter of public education.  You want gun safety?  demystify the tool, show what happens to a watermelon when it is shot, ensure kids and regular people understand what the tool is and does and why when their friends flash one on the street to show how tough they are the answer is "get the hell away from that person" and not "cool, bruh."   I'd have a gunmobile just like we have bloodmobiles.  Show up in a neighborhood, do demonstrations, show how things work, etc.  I would rather have Barney Fife be the source of gun safety training than your local gang leader.   If it's about the children, then quit with the abstinence only stance and start providing education.  

2. Better focus on gang activity and control.  The "gun violence" epidemic (the scare quotes are only because it's  manufactured term to put guns in focus, while violence should be in focus) is extremely correlated to gang activity.  You want to reduce violence?  Reduce gangs.  Most (all?) cities that have a "gun violence" problem have a "gang violence" problem first.  Put more funding on gang units, diversion programs, trade schools, etc. to reduce both the allure of gangs and the demand for them to provide pastime.  

3.  To the degree constitutionally and communally acceptable, intervene in the communities most likely to perpetrate violence with firearms.  Black males are the most likely racial cohort to murder with a firearm, I suspect that likelihood goes up to the extreme when location, gang affiliation, etc. are factored in.   Programs focused on aggressive education, diversion, etc. might have an effect if they are targeted to the right audience.  Preaching to the NRA about how gun violence has to stop is just...stupid.  Members of the NRA are not, by any statistically significant measure, perpetrating gun violence.  They are, however, funding one of the few sources of gun safety training that doesn't come from within the family.   I'm not a fan of stop and frisk, but have to admit that if it works and has been ruled constitutional, I'm probably trying it if I'm police commissioner.  

4.  Under all this, I think that the philosophy of policing has to change.  Community policing, with cops "dismounted" in neighborhoods, likely needs to come back.  That requires cops to forego the dark shades and military garb and actually become part of the community.  Influence the young people, don't treat them as the enemy.  The police are hated in some communities not because they are the police, but because they are not part of the community.  Robocop does not exist, but many police agencies really want their officers to be perceived as Robocop. This is a mistake.

In short, treat the diseases (lack of knowledge, enabling culture, at risk demographics, and proximity to and respect for lawful government agents), not the symptom (eek, a gun!).   

Trying to control all guns as a matter of public policy is not only constitutionally problematic, it is a utopian pipe dream conjured up to let politicians "do something" while not really doing anything.
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Posted: 07/10/2014 9:31 AM

Re: what would you recommend? 



---------------------------------------------
--- lex24 wrote:

Socially - I'd start with trying to reinstill some sense of family in the inner-city. And I mean nuclear family. Mom/Dad.  FATHERS matter.  It isn't politically correct to say that.  But it is true. 


Next - I'd  work on instilling the idea that education matters. That not only means improving schools (and I'd look for private contributions. I'd be all over the uber-rich to help support inner-city schools).   It also means pushing a value in the community that education matters. So when there is a back to school nite - someone actually shows up.  We have to talk to people about why education is the option.  And that involves selling the parents - not just the kids. 

---------------------------------------------

Gary Comer, who grew up on the South Side and later founded Lands' End, and his family set aside a big chunk of their time and fortune to launch 2 projects in his old neighborhood. Both offer some refuge, hope, and a ray of sunshine for some Chicago kids who live in an otherwise dangerous environment. Amazing what personal vision and effort can produce with minimal involvement by the city government. Here are their links:

www.gcychome.org

garycomercollegeprep.noblenetwork.org
"If you guys run ‘Power’ one more time I’m walking off the field.”
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Posted: 07/10/2014 9:40 AM

excellent post, PL 


and as to neo's point... yes the gangs are most definitely into drug traffic as major $$$ source as well as protection/shakedowns and prostitution

but there are others beyond Black gangs... where there are major demographic concentrations like in LA, San Francisco, San Jose, etc... you also have Latino gangs, Vietnamese gangs and Chinese gangs...

and of course the Mafia (just to show prejudice not involved)

an equal opportunity employer, those gangs

Last edited 07/10/2014 4:25 PM by FrankO

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Posted: 07/10/2014 11:41 AM

Re: excellent post, PL 


no White gangs, eh?

FrankO wrote: and as to neo's point... yes the gangs are most definitely into drug traffic as major $$$ source as well as protection/shakedowns and prostitution

but there are others beyond Black gangs... where there are major demographic concentrations like in LA, San Francisco, San Jose, etc... you also have Latino gangs, Vietnamese gangs and Chinese gangs...

an equal opportunity employer, those gangs
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Posted: 07/10/2014 12:25 PM

Re: excellent post, PL 



SidelineGame wrote: no White gangs, eh?

FrankO wrote: and as to neo's point... yes the gangs are most definitely into drug traffic as major $$$ source as well as protection/shakedowns and prostitution

but there are others beyond Black gangs... where there are major demographic concentrations like in LA, San Francisco, San Jose, etc... you also have Latino gangs, Vietnamese gangs and Chinese gangs...

an equal opportunity employer, those gangs

Estimated at about 10% of the total gang membership, they are predominately white supremacists living in rural areas.  .
“Let us not seek the Republican answer or the Democratic answer, but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future.” JFK

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Posted: 07/10/2014 3:03 PM

Re: what would you recommend? 



neodymian60 wrote: Where do drugs fit into the equation?

A couple of Mass State Police I know say that at just about every violent crime scene, they will find drugs or a link to drugs.  And where is the source of supply for these drugs?
While I have no doubt the links exist that you cite; I think the question ought to be posed:  Is the cause the drugs, or the violent, gang ridden black market for drugs created through the prohibition of and war on drugs?  

Drugs are a public health issue and we are treating them like they are a military issue.  Plays well with the base (and with the people who profit from police and military intervention in the GWOD).
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Posted: 07/10/2014 4:23 PM

yep... 


do the Mafia qualify?
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Posted: 07/10/2014 5:56 PM

Re: what would you recommend? 


Let's put it another way - as this thread is about 82 shootings and 8 deaths in Chicago on one weekend.

How many of the shootings were related to drugs? 

How many of the shooters, and victims,  were from broken or non-existent families?

Last edited 07/11/2014 4:03 AM by neodymian60

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