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--- MauiWolf wrote:

FeloniousQ wrote: You guys sure you're remembering Brandon Sutter and not one of his relatives?

Because I remember a guy too small (J staal is one inch shorter and FORTY pounds heavier), not physical enough on a team constantly outtoughed, and who struggled to break the 30 pt barrier.

I'm not sure how many "chances" he needs. This is going to be his fifth season at the NHL level. Plenty of players have managed to prove themselves in four years.

I'll thank him for his character and his good attitude, and then I'll welcome a Calder finalist, Selke finalist, and Cup winner that will sell tickets in a market that will increasingly need it.

He proved himself plenty.  Heck, even Maurice said at one point, we don't expect Brandon to score in the role we want him to fill.  That is why Mo is gone (he is a *** idiot) and the role they had him playing decreased his scoring.  I expect him to score a lot more points with Pittsburgh, 1) because they score more goals, 2) he will be put in a role where they want and expect him to score.  Sutter will become a Selke contender as well down the road IMO.

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You're welcome to disagree man. No need for the personal attacks. Nice edit.

I used to live in Pittsburgh and keep in touch with plenty of Pens fans. They are way sorrier to see Staal go than they are about seeing Sutter and two projects arrive.

Pittsburgh partly scores more goals because Staal is there. Sutter absolutely will not replace him 1:1 next year or any year.

I will grant that Sutter will work better in Pittsburgh than here because, frankly, most players would. Sutter also doesn't have to shoulder locker room leadership or physical burden since Pitt has physical players and, largely, we do not.

I'll politely disagree with you that Sutter will be anywhere near the Selke anytime soon, but as you say, to each their own.

wolfpackernc wrote: LOL at the idea Sutter will get an increased scoring role in Pittsburgh. He is going to become even MORE defensively focused there. I am fairly certain Malkin and Crosby will be deemed capable of handling the scoring.

3rd line for Pens has scored a lot of points over last 5-6 seasons, he will score more at Pittsburgh.

MauiWolf wrote:

FeloniousQ wrote: He's played for Lavi, Maurice, and Muller. The "everything's Maurice's fault" excuse is getting tired.

Not the excuse.  Muller came out and said he was changing his role.  Would have been nice to seen a full season under Muller.

Plus, Sutter was one of the better face off and D forwards on the team.

Do not get me wrong, I am excited about J. Staal, but you are wrong in acting like Sutter is Boychuk level of talent.  Sutter's best years are ahead of him and unfortunately those years will be with a different team.  Sutter's first 3 full seasons are pretty close to Brindy's first 3 full seasons.  That is the type of player he will grow into.

That's an optimistic reach.

I edited because I felt better of it after I read what I typed.

Sorry you lived in Pittsburgh, thoughts, prayers.

FeloniousQ wrote:

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--- MauiWolf wrote:

FeloniousQ wrote: You guys sure you're remembering Brandon Sutter and not one of his relatives?

Because I remember a guy too small (J staal is one inch shorter and FORTY pounds heavier), not physical enough on a team constantly outtoughed, and who struggled to break the 30 pt barrier.

I'm not sure how many "chances" he needs. This is going to be his fifth season at the NHL level. Plenty of players have managed to prove themselves in four years.

I'll thank him for his character and his good attitude, and then I'll welcome a Calder finalist, Selke finalist, and Cup winner that will sell tickets in a market that will increasingly need it.

He proved himself plenty.  Heck, even Maurice said at one point, we don't expect Brandon to score in the role we want him to fill.  That is why Mo is gone (he is a *** idiot) and the role they had him playing decreased his scoring.  I expect him to score a lot more points with Pittsburgh, 1) because they score more goals, 2) he will be put in a role where they want and expect him to score.  Sutter will become a Selke contender as well down the road IMO.

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You're welcome to disagree man. No need for the personal attacks. Nice edit.

I used to live in Pittsburgh and keep in touch with plenty of Pens fans. They are way sorrier to see Staal go than they are about seeing Sutter and two projects arrive.

Pittsburgh partly scores more goals because Staal is there. Sutter absolutely will not replace him 1:1 next year or any year.

I will grant that Sutter will work better in Pittsburgh than here because, frankly, most players would. Sutter also doesn't have to shoulder locker room leadership or physical burden since Pitt has physical players and, largely, we do not.

I'll politely disagree with you that Sutter will be anywhere near the Selke anytime soon, but as you say, to each their own.

I've been watching hockey and going to hockey games for 35+ yrs, so I will stick to my opinion about what type of player I think he grows into.  Now that doesn't mean I will be correct, but that is where I think he is headed.

grantwolf wrote:

MauiWolf wrote:

FeloniousQ wrote: He's played for Lavi, Maurice, and Muller. The "everything's Maurice's fault" excuse is getting tired.

Not the excuse.  Muller came out and said he was changing his role.  Would have been nice to seen a full season under Muller.

Plus, Sutter was one of the better face off and D forwards on the team.

Do not get me wrong, I am excited about J. Staal, but you are wrong in acting like Sutter is Boychuk level of talent.  Sutter's best years are ahead of him and unfortunately those years will be with a different team.  Sutter's first 3 full seasons are pretty close to Brindy's first 3 full seasons.  That is the type of player he will grow into.

That's an optimistic reach.

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--- grantwolf wrote:

MauiWolf wrote:

FeloniousQ wrote: He's played for Lavi, Maurice, and Muller. The "everything's Maurice's fault" excuse is getting tired.

Not the excuse.  Muller came out and said he was changing his role.  Would have been nice to seen a full season under Muller.

Plus, Sutter was one of the better face off and D forwards on the team.

Do not get me wrong, I am excited about J. Staal, but you are wrong in acting like Sutter is Boychuk level of talent.  Sutter's best years are ahead of him and unfortunately those years will be with a different team.  Sutter's first 3 full seasons are pretty close to Brindy's first 3 full seasons.  That is the type of player he will grow into.

That's an optimistic reach.

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No joke. And I'm lambasted for my "hockey knowledge?"

Please look here and find me ANY season of Brindy's, including when he was thirty-five plus, that remotely resembles anything Sutter has put forth so far.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Brind'Amour

MauiWolf wrote:

wolfpackernc wrote: LOL at the idea Sutter will get an increased scoring role in Pittsburgh. He is going to become even MORE defensively focused there. I am fairly certain Malkin and Crosby will be deemed capable of handling the scoring.

3rd line for Pens has scored a lot of points over last 5-6 seasons, he will score more at Pittsburgh.

LOL - That 3rd line was centered by Jordan Staal.  This is circular reasoning.

Bottom line is this: Could Sutter's points go up?  Yes because the team is more talented offensively.  Will it be because of an increased scoring role?  No.  He's going to be in the same position he was with in Carolina.

ETA: It's also possible his production doesn't change but Pittsburgh scores less.  If you believe, as many do, that Staal is better than Sutter, this is what you should expect.

35, 32, 44 pts to 40, 29, 32.  Not all that different, but go ahead and act like they are.

I saw Brindy play as a young Flyer, a veteran Flyer and obviously as a Hurricane.  Lot of similarities in Brindy's early game to Sutter's.  I was a big Brindy fan before the Hurricanes ever were a thought, and he is my all-time favorite player, so I do not give out the comparison lightly.  Again, he may not develop into that, but I think he will.  If I am wrong, well sucks for Sutter.

FeloniousQ wrote:
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--- grantwolf wrote:

MauiWolf wrote:

FeloniousQ wrote: He's played for Lavi, Maurice, and Muller. The "everything's Maurice's fault" excuse is getting tired.

Not the excuse.  Muller came out and said he was changing his role.  Would have been nice to seen a full season under Muller.

Plus, Sutter was one of the better face off and D forwards on the team.

Do not get me wrong, I am excited about J. Staal, but you are wrong in acting like Sutter is Boychuk level of talent.  Sutter's best years are ahead of him and unfortunately those years will be with a different team.  Sutter's first 3 full seasons are pretty close to Brindy's first 3 full seasons.  That is the type of player he will grow into.

That's an optimistic reach.

---------------------------------------------
No joke. And I'm lambasted for my "hockey knowledge?"

Please look here and find me ANY season of Brindy's, including when he was thirty-five plus, that remotely resembles anything Sutter has put forth so far.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Brind'Amour

Did not realize that Sutter had reached his peak 4 yrs into his career.  I think Staal is a better player, not complaining about trade at all, just saying I think Sutter has his best days ahead of him, whether he would have stayed here or with another team.

wolfpackernc wrote:

MauiWolf wrote:

wolfpackernc wrote: LOL at the idea Sutter will get an increased scoring role in Pittsburgh. He is going to become even MORE defensively focused there. I am fairly certain Malkin and Crosby will be deemed capable of handling the scoring.

3rd line for Pens has scored a lot of points over last 5-6 seasons, he will score more at Pittsburgh.

LOL - That 3rd line was centered by Jordan Staal.  This is circular reasoning.

Bottom line is this: Could Sutter's points go up?  Yes because the team is more talented offensively.  Will it be because of an increased scoring role?  No.  He's going to be in the same position he was with in Carolina.

ETA: It's also possible his production doesn't change but Pittsburgh scores less.  If you believe, as many do, that Staal is better than Sutter, this is what you should expect.

I'm trying to figure out where you see 35, 32, 44 for Brindy? In his 3rd season (not including the playoffs only rookie season), he had 77 points.

You know that Jordan Staal is only 5 months older than Brandon, right?  I agree that Sutter will develop - but so will Jordan.

wolfpackernc wrote: I'm trying to figure out where you see 35, 32, 44 for Brindy? In his 3rd season (not including the playoffs only rookie season), he had 77 points.

Would help if I read better, I was looking at assists.  I still do not change my assessment of him turning into a Brindy type of player that can challenge for Selke.

This has nothing to do with Jordan.  I mentioned that I like the trade and I think Jordan is better player.  Did you see me anywhere say that it was a bad trade or we should have kept Sutter instead of getting Jordan?  Nope

wolfpackernc wrote: You know that Jordan Staal is only 5 months older than Brandon, right?  I agree that Sutter will develop - but so will Jordan.

I have no idea what those numbers you posted are.

You stated that Brindys first three seasons paralleled Sutters.

Brindy's first three full seasons: 89-90, 90-91, 91-92:

61 pts, 46 PIM
49 pts, 93 PIM
77 pts, 100 PIM

Sutter's first three full seasons: 09-10, 10-11, 11-12 (just to be charitable, I'll ignore his 50 games in 08-09):

40 pts, 2 PIM (how is this even possible?)
29 pts, 25 PIM
32 pts, 21 PIM

If its OK, I will call those numbers different.


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--- MauiWolf wrote:

35, 32, 44 pts to 40, 29, 32.  Not all that different, but go ahead and act like they are.

I saw Brindy play as a young Flyer, a veteran Flyer and obviously as a Hurricane.  Lot of similarities in Brindy's early game to Sutter's.  I was a big Brindy fan before the Hurricanes ever were a thought, and he is my all-time favorite player, so I do not give out the comparison lightly.  Again, he may not develop into that, but I think he will.  If I am wrong, well sucks for Sutter.

FeloniousQ wrote:
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--- grantwolf wrote:

MauiWolf wrote:

FeloniousQ wrote: He's played for Lavi, Maurice, and Muller. The "everything's Maurice's fault" excuse is getting tired.

Not the excuse.  Muller came out and said he was changing his role.  Would have been nice to seen a full season under Muller.

Plus, Sutter was one of the better face off and D forwards on the team.

Do not get me wrong, I am excited about J. Staal, but you are wrong in acting like Sutter is Boychuk level of talent.  Sutter's best years are ahead of him and unfortunately those years will be with a different team.  Sutter's first 3 full seasons are pretty close to Brindy's first 3 full seasons.  That is the type of player he will grow into.

That's an optimistic reach.

---------------------------------------------
No joke. And I'm lambasted for my "hockey knowledge?"

Please look here and find me ANY season of Brindy's, including when he was thirty-five plus, that remotely resembles anything Sutter has put forth so far.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Brind'Amour

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^ read three posts up, you will see where I caught my mistake after it was pointed out that I was looking at wrong numbers. Again, does not change my assessment of him and where he is headed.

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--- MauiWolf wrote:

^ read three posts up, you will see where I caught my mistake after it was pointed out that I was looking at wrong numbers.

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I did, thanks. It continues to be a ridiculous assertion.

You have no room to talk because I have seen you spew some ridiculous BS on hockey threads.  Thanks for reminding me why I made my initial comment towards you, I look forward to the opportunity you will present down the road. 

FeloniousQ wrote:

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--- MauiWolf wrote:

^ read three posts up, you will see where I caught my mistake after it was pointed out that I was looking at wrong numbers.

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I did, thanks. It continues to be a ridiculous assertion.

I'm sorry you entered the thread with an attitude, nerdstered yourself, then ran away. Go ahead and get the last word, then I'll see you when the season starts.

Staal is five months older than Sutter. Early in their careers both have played similar roles for their teams. Staal has been by far the better player up to this point in those roles. No reason not to think that shouldn't continue, but who knows about the future. Will Staal be able to produce at a level that is needed for a #1 or #2 center is the bigger question? We'll see, as the Hurricanes are going to give him a chance at center on one of those lines. Listening to JR in his interviews, I'm thinking it's going to be the 1st line with his brother on the wing. With that said, I think this trade is hard to analyze until we find out who the Canes plan to play at #2 and #3 center (Jussi one of those), let alone looking into our crystal balls and figuring out how all these pieces perform the next ten years.

Also, apparently Sutter and the #1 pick were always part of the package to Pitt. Dumoulin was the final piece that got the Pens to pull the trigger.

Former Canes scout to become new Oilers head coach (he was an assistant coach there the last 2 years):

www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=399314

Backup goalie Brian Boucher out 4-6 months with a shoulder injury.

Pens sign Crosby to a 12-year extension. $104.4 million total with an annual cap hit of $8.7 million. I'd say Crosby did a favor to his GM and the rest of his teammates. Could have gotten much more, I would think.

penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm...DL%7CPIT%7Chome

^ Assume that is a compromise based on the concussions. Because otherwise, by year 7 or 8, there will be 50 guys making more than him even though he's the best player in the league.

Boucher has been money well spent so far.

Ugh.

Salary cap jumps to $70 mil (from $64) and the floor jumps from $48 mil to $54.

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--- wolfpackernc wrote:

^ Assume that is a compromise based on the concussions. Because otherwise, by year 7 or 8, there will be 50 guys making more than him even though he's the best player in the league.

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Imagine that came into play some. However, Montreal or someone else gives him much more if he's an UFA at the end of this year. Concussions problems or not.

I was wrong with the numbers on the cap hit. Crosby is tied with Malkin for 2nd place on annual cap hit money. Only Ovechkin is higher than those two at the moment.

Those cap numbers are pretty much only for the summer. I suspect it will drop when CBA is finalized.

bjtew wrote: Those cap numbers are pretty much only for the summer. I suspect it will drop when CBA is finalized.

Agreed.  That's why this summer's contracts will be interesting.

Hall Gill resigns with Nashville (2-yrs, $4 mill). Know some of you were thinking about him as a possible addition.

Rutherford is reportedly going to try to get a d-man and forward. Best guess is that the majority of money will go to the d-man and the forward will be a 3rd line center. Mueller mentioned yesterday that the Staal bros will start out on the same line. Tlusty or LaRose likely joins them on top line, I'd think. After Staal signs, I'd think JR will have $6 million max to spend on those two players.

Possible d-men:

Sutter (can't see it happening. Will likely take all of the $6 million to sign him)
Carle (more of an offensive guy, not sure that's what the Canes want)
Allen (resign would be fine with me, how much?)
Salvador (like his game, fits the mold that the Canes need)
Rozsival (old and more offensive)
Salo (same as Rozsival and injured all the time)

- Allen or Salvador would be good signings, IMO. With Wideman's contract yesterday, getting either for a steal is not likely.

Possible forwards: (going on the assumption that it will be a 3rd line center, not a top 6 winger, but I could be wrong. Maybe Jussi moves to 3rd line)

Gaustad (Would be ideal. Tough, big, PK. How much? Give him $4 mill and reduce the d-man to $2 mill?)
Morrison
Burish
D. Moore (Poor man's Gaustad. Not as big or tough, but Canes fans know how difficult he can be to play against.)

- Gaustad would be great, but Moore wouldn't be a bad compromise.

Canes have said they are going to give Welsh the shot at 3rd line center. I still think they bring in another wing.

^^ Like you mentioned, cannot see it happening, but Ryan Suter would be great.

wrcwolf wrote: Hall Gill resigns with Nashville (2-yrs, $4 mill). Know some of you were thinking about him as a possible addition.

Rutherford is reportedly going to try to get a d-man and forward. Best guess is that the majority of money will go to the d-man and the forward will be a 3rd line center. Mueller mentioned yesterday that the Staal bros will start out on the same line. Tlusty or LaRose likely joins them on top line, I'd think. After Staal signs, I'd think JR will have $6 million max to spend on those two players.

Possible d-men:

Sutter (can't see it happening. Will likely take all of the $6 million to sign him)
Carle (more of an offensive guy, not sure that's what the Canes want)
Allen (resign would be fine with me, how much?)
Salvador (like his game, fits the mold that the Canes need)
Rozsival (old and more offensive)
Salo (same as Rozsival and injured all the time)

- Allen or Salvador would be good signings, IMO. With Wideman's contract yesterday, getting either for a steal is not likely.

Possible forwards: (going on the assumption that it will be a 3rd line center, not a top 6 winger, but I could be wrong. Maybe Jussi moves to 3rd line)

Gaustad (Would be ideal. Tough, big, PK. How much? Give him $4 mill and reduce the d-man to $2 mill?)
Morrison
Burish
D. Moore (Poor man's Gaustad. Not as big or tough, but Canes fans know how difficult he can be to play against.)

- Gaustad would be great, but Moore wouldn't be a bad compromise.

So after all the talk about getting a first line winger and hearing names like Nash, Parise and Ryan tossed about, our big move (that cost us the 8th pick in the draft, assistant capt, and a promising d-man), netted us a career 3rd line center?

FWIW, I could see the Canes taking a run at Carle. He's turned into a more all purpose d-man as he's matured despite starting his career with a rep as a puck mover. Plus, he's been in that Philly system and those guys know how to train d-men to actually defend their own end. There's still rumors that Carolina will throw an offer at Suter, but so will virtually everybody else with cap space. He's a terrific all arounder and probably worth every penny he'll get.

I'll be shocked if we get any big name player. I'd love to get Kostitsyn from the Predators. Outside of Parise and Semin, he's probably the best winger on the market. He would bring some scoring and some intensity to our team, I'd love that.

Parenteau

Absolutely no to Kostysin

Parenteau ain't coming here. He'll re-sign with the Islanders before he comes here.

Don't see JR going after Semin or Kostitsyn. Work ethic questions for both. Muller was an assistant at Montreal when Kostitsyn was playing there so maybe Muller has a favorable impression of him. Who knows, but I don't think the Habs were too upset when Andrei left.

All I'm hearing from JR and Muller in the media is that J. Staal and E. Staal will get a chance to be on the first line together. If that's the case, the need for a winger is not as important as a 3rd line center would be, IMO. Maybe they have that much confidence in Welsh, but I'd rather see a more experienced guy in that spot, if available for a decent price.

1st - E. Staal, J. Staal, Tlusty
2nd - Skinner, Jokinen, Ruutu
3rd - Dwyer, UFA, LaRose (Guastad or Moore at C ideal)

Livewolves, Carle could be an option on defense. Is he strong enough in his own zone to help Faulk out? Not sure about that. He's gotten better defensively, but not the prototype.

ETA - Bob McKenzie reporting that he thinks Jordan's contract with the Canes will be the same as the one the Pens offered. 10-years, $60 million.

wrcwolf wrote:
Livewolves, Carle could be an option on defense. Is he strong enough in his own zone to help Faulk out? Not sure about that. He's gotten better defensively, but not the prototype.

Yeah, he's a different player than he was 2-3 years ago. His time in Philly has served him well. I think he'd make a nice addition, but I'm not so sure about pairing him with Faulk. Besides, I think you're going to see Faulk start out with Gleason next season.

Canes officially sign Jordan Staal to 10-year extension

Jordan Staal signs 10-year deal for $60 million. Same contract that the Pens offered. If he steps up to be a top ten 1st line center in the league, than that's a good contract for the Canes. We'll see.

Guastad singed a 4-year, $13 million deal to stay with the Preds. Scratch him as a possible UFA signing. Moore looks even better, now. Not sure the Canes would have offered that much for Guastad anyways. Preds had incentive to sign him as they gave Buffalo their #1 pick this year at the deadline for him. Oh well.

Where does Brodeur end up, if he leaves the Devils? Imagine he'll wait to see what Parise does before he considers leaving. Hired his first agent since '95.