livewolves wrote:

bowiepackfan wrote: And yet it's Bettman who has been in position for the last 3 lockouts, not Fehr.  The owners were playing for a lockout from day one on this. 

I'm not absolving the players or the Fehr brothers by any means, but to say it's solely Fehr's fault is not looking at the whole issue.

The problem is neither Fehr nor Bettman. It's the big market owners who are driving this lockout. Bettman might be an evil little bridge troll, and the players loathe the guy ... make no mistake about that. But the driving force this time is Snyder (Philly), Jacobs (Boston), Illich (Detroit) and the groups that own the Rangers and Leafs. They want to slash costs even more than they did in the last CBA negotiation, lock players into longer terms and protect themselves from their own tendencies to over-spend.

Oh, I understand what you are saying, and agree to a great extent.  I was just more commenting on anyone placing the blame solely on Fehr's shoulders.

I have no problem with the PA bringing in Fehr. They have never really had as strong of a leader as him in the past. Now can he keep the members in line like he did with the MLBPA, who fought like hell for his predecessor, Marvin Miller, and seem to be the strongest union in sports. Don't think that will be easy.

Also have no problem with the owners wanting to get a deal similar to that of the NFL and NBA. The current player revenue percentage has been set at 50% by those two leagues. The NHLPA may not like that and want to keep it around 54-57%, but that's not going to happen. The dance will continue until the numbers get around 50%.

First two weeks of the season cancelled (or postponed if you are optimist).

I reiterate, I feel no sympathy for these jokers this time around.

wrcwolf wrote:
Also have no problem with the owners wanting to get a deal similar to that of the NFL and NBA. The current player revenue percentage has been set at 50% by those two leagues. The NHLPA may not like that and want to keep it around 54-57%, but that's not going to happen. The dance will continue until the numbers get around 50%.

FWIW, the players have repeatedly told the owners that a 50/50 split is something they could live with so long as they don't get hosed on everything else.

This one's on the owners.

I blame Fehr.

I'm beginning to not even care anymore.

Told the wife and another couple that we sit with on occasion the other night "just think of all the money we will be saving". Tickets,parking, food/drink, time, etc and so on.

---------------------------------------------
--- livewolves wrote:

wrcwolf wrote:
Also have no problem with the owners wanting to get a deal similar to that of the NFL and NBA. The current player revenue percentage has been set at 50% by those two leagues. The NHLPA may not like that and want to keep it around 54-57%, but that's not going to happen. The dance will continue until the numbers get around 50%.

FWIW, the players have repeatedly told the owners that a 50/50 split is something they could live with so long as they don't get hosed on everything else.

This one's on the owners.

---------------------------------------------

Haven't seen anything of that nature. The lowest the NHLPA has offered is 52.2% in year 3. At no point in the NHLPA's 5-year proposal do they take a pay cut based off the average 7.1% growth the league has seen of late. Here are the most recent proposals by each side:

www.theglobeandmail.com/sports...article4541634/

The key difference between the two deals is that the union is trying to stay at or above that $1.87-billion figure earned last season in order to avoid big-time escrow payments by its players right away. That’s one of the things players have asked Fehr for, and he is listening and trying to deliver.

There’s likely some sort of reasonable agreement somewhere in the middle of all this, between the 52.7 per cent the PA has asked for and the 47.5 per cent the league has on the table (in a 7.1 per cent growth scenario), but it won’t come with just an across the board 50 per cent share beginning in Year 1. (Which, by the way, is what the owners likely offer at some point.)

Instead, the union is trying to protect what it has already and gradually shift down closer to 50 per cent while (a) pushing the league to grow revenues by abandoning or helping small markets and (b) upping the overall revenue sharing contribution considerably.

I do not understand the owners.
They pay all these salaries and then lock the players out and say they cannot afford to pay them.
Uh, don't sign them if you cannot afford to pay them.

www.stltoday.com/sports/hockey...963fe79ddc.html

"Given the circumstances of what's happened in professional sports in the last few years, I can believe it," said Dr. Patrick Rishe, a sports economics professor at Webster University who is a contributor to the Sports Money section at Forbes.com.

"What's happened is we went from a time period more than five years ago where athletes were getting between 55-60 percent, and the tenor of the relationship between what players and owners split has changed," Rishe said. "That puts the NHL in a precarious position. Even though the players gave up a significant amount in the (2004-05) negotiations, they're still receiving a 57 percent share.

"The problem is that when two leagues more successful than you have just gone through labor negotiations and their players are barely making 50 percent, then as the weakest sibling of the four major team sports in North America, you can't expect to stay at 57 percent."

There's only one problem: So far, the players aren't budging.

"Donald Fehr, I know he's a tough negotiator and for years he was used to getting his way by virtue of the fact that MLB is still the only league that doesn't have a salary cap," Rishe said. "But I think the wrangling that will go on over the course of the next month or two is simply seeing what (off-ice) concessions he can get ... just like the NFL got fewer workouts, this that and the other.

"Then looking into the future, if the owners cannot largely make a profit with a 50-50 split, then you shouldn't own an NHL franchise. Part of the reason teams get into trouble is because they feel like they have to keep up with the Joneses."

After a battle that was clearly between the league and the union in 2004-05, players have characterized this rematch as a bout between big-market owners and their struggling brethren. In fact, with Forbes reporting that 18 of the league's 30 teams lost money in 2010-11, the case has been made that some owners might prefer the union's proposal.

But sources have said that while the NHLPA is suggesting an increase to $250 million in revenue sharing, the outline also calls for more clubs to receive the funds, meaning a market like St. Louis could see fewer dollars in the players' proposed system.

"You have to be careful how you define big market versus small market," Rishe said. "Part of it is sheer population, but part of it, a city such as Dallas in terms of population is a big market, but the way it's performed at the box (office) and with local corporations is akin to a mid-market. So you're essentially penalizing teams like St. Louis for the fact that a big market team doesn't have as much interest in their local hockey team."

Fehr starting the talk about taking down the salary cap. And away we go!!

www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/...fwnjBV4.twitter

But he also made it clear in an hour-long meeting with the Toronto Star’s Editorial Board that the longer the NHL lockout lasts, the less happy the players will be playing under a salary cap.

“If this goes on for an extended period of time, I don’t know what they (the players) are going to do. But I think it’s safe to say, they would be exploring all options,” said Fehr.

He added the players can live with salary cap if an agreement can be reached quickly.

Fehr spent a great deal of his time explaining why salary caps in the NFL, NBA and NHL are little more than poorly managed micro-economies while the revenue-sharing world of Major League Baseball — one he helped create — has led to labour peace, league profitability and rising values of franchises.

“Baseball has become stable, hockey has lost more games than the other sports combined,” said Fehr. “Baseball is growing rapidly and its franchise values are growing enormously rapidly. I don’t think the two are unrelated.”

Start of the season was to begin tonight. After listening to some Canadian sports radio this morning, it's not looking good for the start to happen anytime soon. Some are of the opinion that the top-line players, Crosby, Ovechkin, Toews, etc... are running Fehr and the PA at the moment. Who benefits the most without a salary cap? That would be the top-line players, as it is in MLB. Until the rank-and-file players and old-guard like Dwyer, Carcillo and Hannan have more of a voice in the PA, I don't expect a resolution.

Will be interesting to see the NHLPA's next proposal. That is, if they offer a new proposal.

www.winnipegfreepress.com/spor...-173441631.html

The minute the union puts the salary cap on the table, this season, and maybe more, will certainly be lost.

People say there's too much to lose to not get a deal done. We know both sides are willing to risk a season. They're doing that right now.

Yahoo Sports hockey writer Nick Cotsonika came up with this prescient pearl the other day.

"Maybe a lost season was even worse than we thought. Once you've been through it and survived, it doesn't seem as scary. Scarier thought: If losing a season isn't that scary anymore, what is?" wrote the Michigan-based reporter.

Scary as in back-to-back seasons missed.

Can a 24-month lockout be possible? You bet. What the game will look like and what will be left to fight over when that is said and done is unknown. But don't think it can't happen.

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman will soon hear demands from his owners to go for larger concessions from the players in order to make up for the money they've lost to date.

It's an saying you hear from league types, "the owners will not fund the lockout" -- meaning whatever losses owners incur because of lost games they'll try to get back in the new deal.

Ownership doesn't get caught up in the emotion of what's right or wrong. They're businessmen with an agenda and the will to make it happen. If they weren't in favour of Bettman's plotted course they would have told him so in the summer. They knew what they were getting into.

The owners expected this. They planned for this. Did they hope the players would want to make a deal? Yes. But the minute Don Fehr was named NHLPA executive director they knew exactly what they had on their hands: a fight.

All of this puts Bettman in a difficult spot. No doubt, Bettman has seen the headlines and columns labeling him the Lockout Commissioner. It's a given Bettman will do what he and his owners determine is best for their interests but he's not a bloodless stone. Bettman understands another long lockout will damage his legacy in the eyes of the fans and while he won't let that rule his actions, it will nag at his soul.

Bettman would love to broker a long-term deal that gives the owners what they want and secures his vision for the league. Keep in mind, most of the markets that need of salary relief are expansion clubs that came in under Bettman's watch.

The commissioner made the league grand, but now he has to pay for it.

Bettman has his pressures. The question now is does Don Fehr have the same pressures? Are his players willing to go 12 months or longer without pay? They say they are but they must now be feeling the reality of that moment.

As a responsible union leader, Fehr will soon have to take their temperature.

I here compression of teams is a possibility, and if so, goodbye Canes.

fansince1955 wrote: I here compression of teams is a possibility, and if so, goodbye Canes.

What???? That is ludicrous.

If anything I hope this takes some of the arrogance out of the suits over at Edwards Mill Rd. If you have ever had to deal with them you would know some of them really could use a reality check.

Anyway - at this point I'd almost be willing to settle for an AHL team. Call them the Icecaps and just keep on keeping.

Psu, call it what you will, but I hear it. NOT happy about the situation.

Please do tell, who did you hear it from? :)

Bettman and the owners come back once again with a new proposal. This time 50/50. The magic number. Not sure true revenue split. Plan would be to start Nov. 2 and play 82 games.

On the players now. Only one proposal by them this whole time. I would think this is it for the owners. My guess is it's last proposal by them. Getting close to the point of no turning back on this season for them.

wrcwolf wrote: Bettman and the owners come back once again with a new proposal. This time 50/50. The magic number. Not sure true revenue split. Plan would be to start Nov. 2 and play 82 games.

On the players now. Only one proposal by them this whole time. I would think this is it for the owners. My guess is it's last proposal by them. Getting close to the point of no turning back on this season for them.

Players should take this deal.  They were living on house money at 57-43.

FeloniousQ wrote:

wrcwolf wrote: Bettman and the owners come back once again with a new proposal. This time 50/50. The magic number. Not sure true revenue split. Plan would be to start Nov. 2 and play 82 games.

On the players now. Only one proposal by them this whole time. I would think this is it for the owners. My guess is it's last proposal by them. Getting close to the point of no turning back on this season for them.

Players should take this deal.  They were living on house money at 57-43.

If the players don't accept this deal, I'm not expecting hockey this year.  I believe the players have essentially no choice but to accept this.

^^ They have a choice. I agree that if they don't negotiate close to this new proposal, there will be no season. 50/50 is the main issue, but other smaller things will still need to be figured out. Sounds as if real negotiating will now take place, however. We'll see if the PA has a clue where their position really is in these negotiations. At most 10 days to get this hammered out, one week of practice, then start the season. It's on the players now.

wrcwolf wrote: Please do tell, who did you hear it from? :)

I think he's still trying to make up a solid Canadian sounding name for his source.

wrcwolf wrote: ^^ They have a choice. I agree that if they don't negotiate close to this new proposal, there will be no season. 50/50 is the main issue, but other smaller things will still need to be figured out. Sounds as if real negotiating will now take place, however. We'll see if the PA has a clue where their position really is in these negotiations. At most 10 days to get this hammered out, one week of practice, then start the season. It's on the players now.

i think there position is that they are being pushed into giving up significant income - income that was contractually agreed to - in return for nothing.

psupack wrote:

wrcwolf wrote: Please do tell, who did you hear it from? :)

I think he's still trying to make up a solid Canadian sounding name for his source.

Eklund.

This lockout's getting ready to be over. The players will lose the PR battle over rejecting a 50/50 split, and they definitely don't want to lose a season over what would ultimately be a losing battle. They certainly aren't going to do any better than 50/50.

crusherl wrote:

psupack wrote:

wrcwolf wrote: Please do tell, who did you hear it from? :)

I think he's still trying to make up a solid Canadian sounding name for his source.

Eklund.

BAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

I should've known. Good one crusher.

Hurricanes are being contracted (E4)

^ That's Swedish, but I think it's more of a (E5) :).

^^ You'd like to think, but I'm not so sure that they'll give in. Depends on who is running the show, the superstars or the rank-and-file. They've got about 10 days to make this plan work. After that, I give them to Thanksgiving before the season will probably be in jeopardy. We'll see with their counter-proposal. Have to offer something now at least and there are set dates, so that should get both sides talking. Will be interesting. NHL proposal has a few things that the PA will go after for sure.

fansince1955 wrote: I here compression of teams is a possibility, and if so, goodbye Canes.

lol...yahoo has an article about an expansion coming...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/nhl-e xpansion-toronto-quebec-city-cba-settled-well-1628 30812--nhl.html

ZERO chance of a contraction at this point. relocation..possible. contraction - NO FREAKING WAY

No no, this is so accurate it is the first ever E6. ;-)

---------------------------------------------
--- psupack wrote:

crusherl wrote:

psupack wrote:

wrcwolf wrote: Please do tell, who did you hear it from? :)

I think he's still trying to make up a solid Canadian sounding name for his source.

Eklund.

BAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

I should've known. Good one crusher.

Hurricanes are being contracted (E4)

---------------------------------------------

I hope the players take a good, hard look at this.  If they don't accept within the timeline, the season is pretty much shot and the public will be against them.  The owners were jerks with their first offer, but considering other sports and the undeniable fact that teams are losing money, this seems pretty fair.  See if it gets hung up in other details.

People who speculate about the possibility of contraction fail to understand that the league operates under a collectively bargained labor agreement and that the players would NEVER agree to a move that mean the elimination of 30 or so NHL contracts. Never, ever, not going to happen.

I will try to remember not to pass along ANY speculations made by anyone, no matter their credibility, to this board.

fansince1955 wrote: I will try to remember not to pass along ANY speculations made by anyone, no matter their credibility, to this board.

Just note that the NHL in particular has a history of the journalists who cover the sport making up rumors and speculation out of whole cloth. So even what seems like a credible source who writes for a major newspaper or something could be completely full of crap.

Fansince1955, you can speculate all you want on this board. If other members call you out on over-the-top speculation, that's part of the deal as well. From everything being reported, contraction is not even close to being put on the table. All one has to do is look at Phoenix to understand that's not an option for the NHL or the PA. There are other parties that would be interested in relocating a team if need be. And no, the Canes financial situation is nowhere close to them being a team looking at relocating at this time or any time in the foreseeable future. Let's play the game for a second though, if Karmanos was given approval to move the team by the other owners, which he wouldn't, how quick would Wang have his Islanders unpacking in Raleigh? JR wouldn't have time to pack his stuff.

As wolfsappi mentions, probably a much better chance that the league goes to 32 teams instead of contracting. Four (8) team divisions would make life much easier for all involved. Plus, the additional revenue wouldn't hurt. Water down the talent, however.

NHL and PA are scheduled to meet at 1:00 tomorrow. It's believed that the PA will offer a counter proposal. Hopefully it's close to the NHL offer. If not, trouble.

wrcwolf wrote: Fansince1955, you can speculate all you want on this board. If other members call you out on over-the-top speculation, that's part of the deal as well. From everything being reported, contraction is not even close to being put on the table. All one has to do is look at Phoenix to understand that's not an option for the NHL or the PA. There are other parties that would be interested in relocating a team if need be. And no, the Canes financial situation is nowhere close to them being a team looking at relocating at this time or any time in the foreseeable future. Let's play the game for a second though, if Karmanos was given approval to move the team by the other owners, which he wouldn't, how quick would Wang have his Islanders unpacking in Raleigh? JR wouldn't have time to pack his stuff.

As wolfsappi mentions, probably a much better chance that the league goes to 32 teams instead of contracting. Four (8) team divisions would make life much easier for all involved. Plus, the additional revenue wouldn't hurt. Water down the talent, however.

NHL and PA are scheduled to meet at 1:00 tomorrow. It's believed that the PA will offer a counter proposal. Hopefully it's close to the NHL offer. If not, trouble.

Yeah, Fehr sent out a memo posturing that the owners were still trying to get away with murder.  If he slow plays this, the season is gone.  I hope the players come back with a reasonable proposal and it goes quickly from there.

302ASullivan wrote: I hope the players take a good, hard look at this.  If they don't accept within the timeline, the season is pretty much shot and the public will be against them.  The owners were jerks with their first offer, but considering other sports and the undeniable fact that teams are losing money, this seems pretty fair.  See if it gets hung up in other details.

Agreed.

The Edmonton saga continues. Looks as if the next move is up to Katz.

1) give in to what the city is willing to spend, build and subsidize.
2) continue to hold out for what he wants.
3) talk to other markets (Seattle) and get closer to what he wants there.
4) sell team.

No indication that he's looking to sell, so #4 doesn't seem like a possibility.

www.edmontonjournal.com/busine...5902/story.html

City council has voted to cease negotiations with the Katz Group on a downtown arena and will explore the possibility of building an arena themselves.

“Enough is enough,” said Coun. Dave Loken, whose motion to cease negotiations passed unanimously on Wednesday. “We’re going nowhere with these negotiations.”

Mayor Stephen Mandel said that nothing justifies giving the Katz Group another $6 million a year in an operating subsidy.

Katz’s demands for an ongoing annual subsidy, for an anchor tenant for the office tower and additional financing for the Winter Garden have not been resolved and are critical, said Simon Farbrother, city manager.

Mandel had insisted that someone from the Katz Group show up to outline the company’s concerns but Daryl Katz sent a letter Tuesday saying that would not happen.

“Perhaps with more time and political leadership, this project can still be saved,” Katz wrote, adding there are 15 items still to be resolved.

The contraction comment came from a player. That is all I know. No name or team associated with the coment. Mabye it was conversational chatter A friend heard. This was a few weeks ago. FWIW NOT fact based!

302ASullivan wrote: I hope the players take a good, hard look at this.  If they don't accept within the timeline, the season is pretty much shot and the public will be against them.  The owners were jerks with their first offer, but considering other sports and the undeniable fact that teams are losing money, this seems pretty fair.  See if it gets hung up in other details.

i'm already leaning that way, and that wave ain't gonna do anything but grow higher and higher. i've despised Fehr for a long time, so that's just status quo.

The players came back with 3 proposals yesterday basically telling the league to screw itself.