^They're a credit or two short or an SAT score away from clearing, not YEARS away.

Done with you. I've highjacked the thread long enough. But anyone who thinks unc-ch* would have sat pat during the recruiting, go look at their rosters and records for 1989 and 1990 and tell me they didn't need immediate help.

And I won't reply, but you still haven't answered why everyone outside of Russia knew Billy Owens was suspect academically, but no one in the world knew Williams was. That's a bit peculiar, him being a top 3 national recruit and all.

FretlessPackJam wrote: Back on topic...unc* cheated and has not been properly sanctioned...are we all in agreement here?

yes

Treyvon wrote:

theSal wrote: Just search "Emmert" on Twitter if you want to see people calling for his head.

https://twitter.com/search?q=Emmert note:not a mobile link

Also heard Marc and Taylor on the Drive call for his head yesterday.

Just heard John Feinstein on a CBS sports minute slam/mock the NCAA & Emmert too. He said it's like the NCAA failed to read Miami their rights, they blew the case & have to let it go. But instead the NCAA pushed ahead anyway. John added that Donna Shalala could have Mark in court so fast it would make his hairdo spin.

UNC won't bring down the NCAA but Miami might?

wulfpackbaseball9 wrote: ^They're a credit or two short or an SAT score away from clearing, not YEARS away.

Done with you. I've highjacked the thread long enough. But anyone who thinks unc-ch* would have sat pat during the recruiting, go look at their rosters and records for 1989 and 1990 and tell me they didn't need immediate help.

And I won't reply, but you still haven't answered why everyone outside of Russia knew Billy Owens was suspect academically, but no one in the world knew Williams was. That's a bit peculiar, him being a top 3 national recruit and all.

You know that how? There are several players that never make it even after a year or two of prep school and have to go the JUCO route.

Regarding the 89 team, I believe they were ACC Champions and lost to eventual National Champ in Michigan, the 90 team struggled some but, did knock of #1 seed Oklahoma before losing to Arkansas. Take it step further and the 91 team reached the Final 4 before losing to Kansas. Those teams weren't exactly void of talent.

Not sure the NCAA as a governing body can rebound from all the recent blunders. Part of me likes that and part of me is mad that UNC will likely outlast any potential return from the NCAA.  I mean on one hand they have bungled the Miami investigation yet are still trying to nuke the Hurricanes anyway. And on the other hand they didn't even bother to dig into UNC and just walked away from a mountain of evidence even bigger than that in Miami. Its like they get to choose when and where to enforce the rules and who gets immunity vs who does not.

As mentioned, Donna S. now has the perfect stage, mandate even, to expose the NCAA's hypocrisy. And UNC should be her first and biggest exhibit of how there are apparently two different sets of rules depending on if you are an NCAA favorite or not.

sloth wrote:

How can the NCAA not even open an investigation into this? It is amazing!

I used to think no NCAA investigation was a bad thing. Now, I think it might be good. Our best bet for fair treatment is for DDK or another investigatory body (SACS?) dropping the hammer and forcing the NCAA to act without investigation. If the NCAA investigates, those incompetent ruhtards will just screw it up.

ncdoc wrote:

Planet Boulder wrote:

ncdoc wrote:

dpanther wrote: Seriously ncdouche....what the dealio? This just surprise you guys out of the blue?


---------------------------------------------
--- wulfpackbaseball9 wrote:

ncdoc wrote:

Planet Boulder wrote:

codewolfhowl wrote: signed with unc-ch out of highschool.  from elizabeth city ,i think.  heels and smith were loud and proud of the commitment

kid did not have the grades to graduate from highschool

Thanks, I don;t see the issue, here. He never enrolled at UNC and there is no way he would have been able to do so without graduating from high school. In fact, he wouldn't have been able to enroll anywhere.

What was the controversy?

EXACTLY!!!!  Only issue was UNC took a LOI from a kid with no chance of graduating.

Questions:

1) When do you think it's reasonable that someone within carolina's administration would have known a player a year and a half short of graduating wasn't going to qualify?

2) When did you send your transcripts to colleges?

3) Let's assume unc-ch* didn't figure out/find out/discover Williams wasn't going to qualify until after his fall semester of his senior year. They had 4 months to recruit someone else. Why didn't pull the offer and open recruiting?

4) If you knew he wouldn't qualify, for two years, why even get him to sign an LOI? Just to kill a tree?

---------------------------------------------

1- Reasonable to think they would have known about it at least a year in advance and I'd be surprisaed if they didn't.

2- Sent my transcripts when I applied for admissions in Nov of my Sr. year

3- Who's to say they weren't recruiting other kids? However, I think guys like Mourning, Owens, Mills, Sealy and Laettner had al committed to top 10 programs at the time. I know UNC recruited Owens very hard up until the time he chose Syracuse so, it's not like they bypassed others because Williams had committed.

4- I thought we were true huggers not killers. Maybe it mean't something to the kid, his HS, his coach and/or his family for him to claim he signed with UNC. I have no idea why the kid signed just like I have no idea why some kids sign LOI's on football signing date when they know they won't qualify and they will be free to sign elsewhere after prep school.

You have your own impression of what would have happened while I hold on tto the facts of what DID happen. Big difference between those two.

ncdoc: In #s 3 and 4 above, it *seems* that you are admitting that you don't have the facts regarding what actually happened. Am I incorrect? If so, what are the facts that we are missing?

I'm now honestly curious.

Boulder, #3- I indicated and have provided documentation to show that UNC was recruiting Billy Owens to the very end. So, they weren't just focused on Williams and turning top 5 national players away because of him.

#4- Hell, I can't even find any documentation that he ever signed a LOI with UNC. Perhaps others can provide that. As I mentioned, there are lots of kids that do sign LOI's with schools knowing they will have to go to prep school to qualify. I think both of our schools have had several football players do that over the years. Were any of those as far away from qualifying as Williams? I don't know and chances are no one on this board does.

Personally, I don't see a problem with any of this. To me, it's a non-issue that UNC-CH would offer and not rescind an LOI to a kid who was not on track to graduate. In the end, he didn't attend UNC-CH, so it's a non-issue in my mind. Whether or not they chose to recruit someone else is UNC-CH's business and is not really relevant (and I'm not pointing fingers your way on this point as you weren't the one who brought it up).

I'm just wondering what specific "facts" regarding the recruitment of this specific kid trump the statements provided by the poster to whom you've been responding.

BackNine wrote: Not sure the NCAA as a governing body can rebound from all the recent blunders. Part of me likes that and part of me is mad that UNC will likely outlast any potential return from the NCAA.  I mean on one hand they have bungled the Miami investigation yet are still trying to nuke the Hurricanes anyway. And on the other hand they didn't even bother to dig into UNC and just walked away from a mountain of evidence even bigger than that in Miami. Its like they get to choose when and where to enforce the rules and who gets immunity vs who does not.

As mentioned, Donna S. now has the perfect stage, mandate even, to expose the NCAA's hypocrisy. And UNC should be her first and biggest exhibit of how there are apparently two different sets of rules depending on if you are an NCAA favorite or not.

I agree, they keep shooting themselves in the foot. The other thing that's tough to understand, if they don't care what UNC does or did, why are those same dumb mofos upset over what Miami did?

Who are they to decide who gets away with cheating & who doesn't?

Planet Boulder wrote:

ncdoc wrote:

Planet Boulder wrote:

ncdoc wrote:

dpanther wrote: Seriously ncdouche....what the dealio? This just surprise you guys out of the blue?


---------------------------------------------
--- wulfpackbaseball9 wrote:

ncdoc wrote:

Planet Boulder wrote:

codewolfhowl wrote: signed with unc-ch out of highschool.  from elizabeth city ,i think.  heels and smith were loud and proud of the commitment

kid did not have the grades to graduate from highschool

Thanks, I don;t see the issue, here. He never enrolled at UNC and there is no way he would have been able to do so without graduating from high school. In fact, he wouldn't have been able to enroll anywhere.

What was the controversy?

EXACTLY!!!!  Only issue was UNC took a LOI from a kid with no chance of graduating.

Questions:

1) When do you think it's reasonable that someone within carolina's administration would have known a player a year and a half short of graduating wasn't going to qualify?

2) When did you send your transcripts to colleges?

3) Let's assume unc-ch* didn't figure out/find out/discover Williams wasn't going to qualify until after his fall semester of his senior year. They had 4 months to recruit someone else. Why didn't pull the offer and open recruiting?

4) If you knew he wouldn't qualify, for two years, why even get him to sign an LOI? Just to kill a tree?

---------------------------------------------

1- Reasonable to think they would have known about it at least a year in advance and I'd be surprisaed if they didn't.

2- Sent my transcripts when I applied for admissions in Nov of my Sr. year

3- Who's to say they weren't recruiting other kids? However, I think guys like Mourning, Owens, Mills, Sealy and Laettner had al committed to top 10 programs at the time. I know UNC recruited Owens very hard up until the time he chose Syracuse so, it's not like they bypassed others because Williams had committed.

4- I thought we were true huggers not killers. Maybe it mean't something to the kid, his HS, his coach and/or his family for him to claim he signed with UNC. I have no idea why the kid signed just like I have no idea why some kids sign LOI's on football signing date when they know they won't qualify and they will be free to sign elsewhere after prep school.

You have your own impression of what would have happened while I hold on tto the facts of what DID happen. Big difference between those two.

ncdoc: In #s 3 and 4 above, it *seems* that you are admitting that you don't have the facts regarding what actually happened. Am I incorrect? If so, what are the facts that we are missing?

I'm now honestly curious.

Boulder, #3- I indicated and have provided documentation to show that UNC was recruiting Billy Owens to the very end. So, they weren't just focused on Williams and turning top 5 national players away because of him.

#4- Hell, I can't even find any documentation that he ever signed a LOI with UNC. Perhaps others can provide that. As I mentioned, there are lots of kids that do sign LOI's with schools knowing they will have to go to prep school to qualify. I think both of our schools have had several football players do that over the years. Were any of those as far away from qualifying as Williams? I don't know and chances are no one on this board does.

Personally, I don't see a problem with any of this. To me, it's a non-issue that UNC-CH would offer and not rescind an LOI to a kid who was not on track to graduate. In the end, he didn't attend UNC-CH, so it's a non-issue in my mind. Whether or not they chose to recruit someone else is UNC-CH's business and is not really relevant (and I'm not pointing fingers your way on this point as you weren't the one who brought it up).

I'm just wondering what specific "facts" regarding the recruitment of this specific kid trump the statements provided by the poster to whom you've been responding.

Boulder, the person who brought this up seemed to imply that UNC would have found a way to get Williams in to school even though he was a year away from graduating high school. He backed that up by saying that Carolina backed off on a kid like Billy Owens because they had Williams. The facts I've presented show that UNC continued to recruit Billy Owens all the way up until he chose Syracuse.

I'm going to let it go after this but, I think we all know that 9 was saying without the USA Today report Williams would have played at Carolina which I find highly doubtful. Carolina continued to recruit Jason Parker and received a commitment from him only to have to rescind the offer due to the fact he didn't pass admissions. My firm belief is just like with Parker, UNC would have denied his admissions and moved on.

BlackRazor wrote:

Treyvon wrote:

theSal wrote: Just search "Emmert" on Twitter if you want to see people calling for his head.

https://twitter.com/search?q=Emmert note:not a mobile link

Also heard Marc and Taylor on the Drive call for his head yesterday.

Just heard John Feinstein on a CBS sports minute slam/mock the NCAA & Emmert too. He said it's like the NCAA failed to read Miami their rights, they blew the case & have to let it go. But instead the NCAA pushed ahead anyway. John added that Donna Shalala could have Mark in court so fast it would make his hairdo spin.

UNC won't bring down the NCAA but Miami might?

Might have to give UNC an assist, though.

BlackRazor wrote:

BackNine wrote: Not sure the NCAA as a governing body can rebound from all the recent blunders. Part of me likes that and part of me is mad that UNC will likely outlast any potential return from the NCAA.  I mean on one hand they have bungled the Miami investigation yet are still trying to nuke the Hurricanes anyway. And on the other hand they didn't even bother to dig into UNC and just walked away from a mountain of evidence even bigger than that in Miami. Its like they get to choose when and where to enforce the rules and who gets immunity vs who does not.

As mentioned, Donna S. now has the perfect stage, mandate even, to expose the NCAA's hypocrisy. And UNC should be her first and biggest exhibit of how there are apparently two different sets of rules depending on if you are an NCAA favorite or not.

I agree, they keep shooting themselves in the foot. The other thing that's tough to understand, if they don't care what UNC does or did, why are those same dumb mofos upset over what Miami did?

Who are they to decide who gets away with cheating & who doesn't?

follow the money.

Treyvon wrote:

BlackRazor wrote:

BackNine wrote: Not sure the NCAA as a governing body can rebound from all the recent blunders. Part of me likes that and part of me is mad that UNC will likely outlast any potential return from the NCAA.  I mean on one hand they have bungled the Miami investigation yet are still trying to nuke the Hurricanes anyway. And on the other hand they didn't even bother to dig into UNC and just walked away from a mountain of evidence even bigger than that in Miami. Its like they get to choose when and where to enforce the rules and who gets immunity vs who does not.

As mentioned, Donna S. now has the perfect stage, mandate even, to expose the NCAA's hypocrisy. And UNC should be her first and biggest exhibit of how there are apparently two different sets of rules depending on if you are an NCAA favorite or not.

I agree, they keep shooting themselves in the foot. The other thing that's tough to understand, if they don't care what UNC does or did, why are those same dumb mofos upset over what Miami did?

Who are they to decide who gets away with cheating & who doesn't?

follow the money.

I wonder what UNC's AD really costs, the figures they release to the public & all their hidden costs/payoffs if in fact they're doing that? How much face could they have saved had they paid the right people never to visit Chapel Hill in the 1st place back in 2010?

If you compete against U*NC you get hammered. If you're U*NC you walk. Simple.

Treyvon wrote:

BlackRazor wrote:

BackNine wrote: Not sure the NCAA as a governing body can rebound from all the recent blunders. Part of me likes that and part of me is mad that UNC will likely outlast any potential return from the NCAA.  I mean on one hand they have bungled the Miami investigation yet are still trying to nuke the Hurricanes anyway. And on the other hand they didn't even bother to dig into UNC and just walked away from a mountain of evidence even bigger than that in Miami. Its like they get to choose when and where to enforce the rules and who gets immunity vs who does not.

As mentioned, Donna S. now has the perfect stage, mandate even, to expose the NCAA's hypocrisy. And UNC should be her first and biggest exhibit of how there are apparently two different sets of rules depending on if you are an NCAA favorite or not.

I agree, they keep shooting themselves in the foot. The other thing that's tough to understand, if they don't care what UNC does or did, why are those same dumb mofos upset over what Miami did?

Who are they to decide who gets away with cheating & who doesn't?

follow the money.

ncdoc wrote:

Planet Boulder wrote:

ncdoc wrote:

Planet Boulder wrote:

ncdoc wrote:

dpanther wrote: Seriously ncdouche....what the dealio? This just surprise you guys out of the blue?


---------------------------------------------
--- wulfpackbaseball9 wrote:

ncdoc wrote:

Planet Boulder wrote:

codewolfhowl wrote: signed with unc-ch out of highschool.  from elizabeth city ,i think.  heels and smith were loud and proud of the commitment

kid did not have the grades to graduate from highschool

Thanks, I don;t see the issue, here. He never enrolled at UNC and there is no way he would have been able to do so without graduating from high school. In fact, he wouldn't have been able to enroll anywhere.

What was the controversy?

EXACTLY!!!!  Only issue was UNC took a LOI from a kid with no chance of graduating.

Questions:

1) When do you think it's reasonable that someone within carolina's administration would have known a player a year and a half short of graduating wasn't going to qualify?

2) When did you send your transcripts to colleges?

3) Let's assume unc-ch* didn't figure out/find out/discover Williams wasn't going to qualify until after his fall semester of his senior year. They had 4 months to recruit someone else. Why didn't pull the offer and open recruiting?

4) If you knew he wouldn't qualify, for two years, why even get him to sign an LOI? Just to kill a tree?

---------------------------------------------

1- Reasonable to think they would have known about it at least a year in advance and I'd be surprisaed if they didn't.

2- Sent my transcripts when I applied for admissions in Nov of my Sr. year

3- Who's to say they weren't recruiting other kids? However, I think guys like Mourning, Owens, Mills, Sealy and Laettner had al committed to top 10 programs at the time. I know UNC recruited Owens very hard up until the time he chose Syracuse so, it's not like they bypassed others because Williams had committed.

4- I thought we were true huggers not killers. Maybe it mean't something to the kid, his HS, his coach and/or his family for him to claim he signed with UNC. I have no idea why the kid signed just like I have no idea why some kids sign LOI's on football signing date when they know they won't qualify and they will be free to sign elsewhere after prep school.

You have your own impression of what would have happened while I hold on tto the facts of what DID happen. Big difference between those two.

ncdoc: In #s 3 and 4 above, it *seems* that you are admitting that you don't have the facts regarding what actually happened. Am I incorrect? If so, what are the facts that we are missing?

I'm now honestly curious.

Boulder, #3- I indicated and have provided documentation to show that UNC was recruiting Billy Owens to the very end. So, they weren't just focused on Williams and turning top 5 national players away because of him.

#4- Hell, I can't even find any documentation that he ever signed a LOI with UNC. Perhaps others can provide that. As I mentioned, there are lots of kids that do sign LOI's with schools knowing they will have to go to prep school to qualify. I think both of our schools have had several football players do that over the years. Were any of those as far away from qualifying as Williams? I don't know and chances are no one on this board does.

Personally, I don't see a problem with any of this. To me, it's a non-issue that UNC-CH would offer and not rescind an LOI to a kid who was not on track to graduate. In the end, he didn't attend UNC-CH, so it's a non-issue in my mind. Whether or not they chose to recruit someone else is UNC-CH's business and is not really relevant (and I'm not pointing fingers your way on this point as you weren't the one who brought it up).

I'm just wondering what specific "facts" regarding the recruitment of this specific kid trump the statements provided by the poster to whom you've been responding.

Boulder, the person who brought this up seemed to imply that UNC would have found a way to get Williams in to school even though he was a year away from graduating high school. He backed that up by saying that Carolina backed off on a kid like Billy Owens because they had Williams. The facts I've presented show that UNC continued to recruit Billy Owens all the way up until he chose Syracuse.

I'm going to let it go after this but, I think we all know that 9 was saying without the USA Today report Williams would have played at Carolina which I find highly doubtful. Carolina continued to recruit Jason Parker and received a commitment from him only to have to rescind the offer due to the fact he didn't pass admissions. My firm belief is just like with Parker, UNC would have denied his admissions and moved on.

I know I said I wasn't going to reply, but the whole Jason Parker thing is a red herring. As is Billy Owens.

Again, the nation knew Billy Owens had suspect grades, and Parker didn't qualify academically and went to Fork Union Military academy.

Parker's SAT scores jumped significantly, as did his ACT scores once he entered Fork Union.
As a sidenote, Fork Union is where Kenny Williams attended his junior year of high school.

The NCAA wasn't going to clear Parker, and everyone knew that months in advance.
Quotes from CNNSI article.

"Jason Parker, a two-time North Carolina high school player of the year, will not attend North Carolina after the NCAA Clearinghouse disqualified his SAT score."

"Parker was given three options late last month, his father said, when the NCAA informed the Parkers that the SAT score was being called into question. Jason Parker could retake the test, explain the jump to SAT official, or have his score dropped."

unc-ch* was given little choice in the matter. It was an NCAA decision, not a unc-ch* one. Parker was also recruited under Matt Doherty's staff, not Dean Smith's staff. Parker had academic issues throughout high school and into prep school, but Williams never had any public issues with grades.

It comes down to this. No eyes were on Kenny Williams' academics, even though he was consistently at least a year short of getting his diploma. Yet Owens' and Parker's issues were clear as day. 

I'll let people decide for themselves as to the why.

direwolfpack wrote: If you compete against U*NC you get hammered. If you're U*NC you walk. Simple.

then everyone should try to emulate Duke BB, they're doing OK smashing UNC @ times.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/11/28/829737/athl etes-caught-in-squeeze.html

I believe UNC could have specially admitted a ham sandwich if it had athletic ability. It's amazing to read Baddour's quotes in retrospect.

StateGrad1979 wrote: http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/11/28/829737/athl etes-caught-in-squeeze.html

I believe UNC could have specially admitted a ham sandwich if it had athletic ability. It's amazing to read Baddour's quotes in retrospect.

From people I talked to who had kids play baseball at Apex High one such Ham sandwich was Tim Federowicz. They told me he had an amazing final SAT also.

I proposed that a couple of weeks ago and got bar be qued for it.

BlackRazor wrote:

direwolfpack wrote: If you compete against U*NC you get hammered. If you're U*NC you walk. Simple.

then everyone should try to emulate Duke BB, they're doing OK smashing UNC @ times.