It's good to have that NFL experience. Maybe this is what Yow was talking about when wanting Bama style recruiting.

www.cbssports.com/collegefootb...tball/21733077/

Last week, four Alabama players were arrested on felony charges, suspended indefinitely from the team and barred from campus. In Tuscaloosa, the news prompted opposite reactions.

Per standard protocol, Crimson Tide fans braced themselves for a tidal wave of schadenfreude, inevitable taunts of "Parole Tide!" and the early lead in the Fulmer Cup. At the same time, though, there was virtually none of the usual handwringing over the impact to the depth chart. This time, the offenders were utterly expendable, for reasons that had nothing to do with the fact that they happened to be backups: Not only can the defending BCS champs afford to lose a handful of potential contributors in one fell swoop, but more so than any other major college football team this spring, it actually needs to. After adding 26 new names to the roster earlier this month -- and landing again in its familiar spot atop the national recruiting rankings -- Alabama is the most oversigned outfit in the nation.

That should come as no surprise, given that Bama has consistently (and legally) operated on the edge of NCAA scholarship caps throughout Nick Saban's tenure. Ostensibly, teams are limited to 85 scholarship players on the roster at any given time. In practice, because the NCAA doesn't do a head count until the start of preseason practice in July or August, sometimes long after incoming freshmen and other newcomers have already arrived on campus, coaches can cross the line on national signing day as long as they're able to come in under the cap six months later. Yet even after a concerted crackdown on "oversigning" by the SEC over the past three years, no coach in any league overshot the mark this year with such gusto.

I really think this is an issue that should be addressed by the NCAA.  Also, a kid should have a four year scholarship as long as they remain in good academic standing and don't get into legal trouble.  It should not be a year to year scholarship.  If they are injured, then they should still count on the scholarship number or the NCAA needs to have a fund for these kids.  Some schools can not afford to provide an additional scholarship from another source while others (UNC) have there own program set up for this.  The playing field should be evened out.   I see Alabama signed 25 this year and 26 last year.  That means quite a few need to drop off to meet the 85 number each year.

And then there's the Nick Saban Memorial Hospital Fund. He was notorious for giving medical hardships to kids for hangnails and paper cuts. That meant the kid couldn't transfer to another school.

I have a buddy who is a Michigan graduate. He was totally opposed to playing Alabama in the season opener. That surprised me considering UM's general preference for a tough non-conference schedule. 

He pointed out that over the last four years, Alabama had signed something like 40 more kids than Michigan had. Basically, they had just skimmed the top of each recruiting class over and over and over again. 

It's one thing to play the best in the country. It's another to do it when you're operating by an entirely different set of rules.

Agreed that reform is needed here....Need to have some way to cap the number of scholarships (adjusted for those that will exhaust and/or graduate) + LOI at less than 85. If you have attrition then you can issue scholarships to walk-on kids already on the team but you can't oversign.

DaHarpoon wrote: Agreed that reform is needed here....Need to have some way to cap the number of scholarships (adjusted for those that will exhaust and/or graduate) + LOI at less than 85. If you have attrition then you can issue scholarships to walk-on kids already on the team but you can't oversign.

That will make coaches give more consideration to a kid that may have less stars, but due to academics/character will be more likely to stay in the program.

College football is rapidly becoming the NFLs minor league. Heck it already is to some degree.

Fourthepack wrote: Alabama is rapidly becoming the NFLs minor league. Heck it already is to some degree.

FTFY

WUF84 wrote:

DaHarpoon wrote: Agreed that reform is needed here....Need to have some way to cap the number of scholarships (adjusted for those that will exhaust and/or graduate) + LOI at less than 85. If you have attrition then you can issue scholarships to walk-on kids already on the team but you can't oversign.

That will make coaches give more consideration to a kid that may have less stars, but due to academics/character will be more likely to stay in the program.

The biggest problem in this is that the scholarships are only guaranteed for 1 year so it gives coaches the freedom to cut people loose. If they were mandated to be for 4 years from the time the kid steps foot on campus it would stop the oversigning and cutting of players.

Make signing 25 the limit.  That means that on signing day, you can't have more than 25 sign. And spring enrollees count against the 25 from that years class, not the previous year.  And you can't go over 85 counting expected returnees and incoming recruits.  That means if you are gonna kick somebody off the team you better do it in January.

As suggested, what about straight numerical limit on new LOI (FEB Signing Day) at 25 including January new student enrollments per year.  85 total effective scholarships at any one time. 

Automatically renewed if kid stays eligible (academics in order and on progress to graduation); if injured and unable to compete can continue scholarship commitment but does not count against quota.  Can not be cancelled/withdrawn if making academic progress, but can be surrendered by the student if they don't participate on the team.

Can issue scholarships to walkon players, if available, but these don't count against the annual cap but must come from players who were on the team previous season.  Once issued, these are like other scholarships and if kid making progress to graduation can not pull scholarship but kid can withdraw from participation and forfeit scholarship.

The suspended players were rated 5 and 4 star. Bama says "No matter, there are plenty more where those came from."

A four year cap on total signings needs to be put in place by the NCAA. Per Scout over the last four years Alabama has signed 102, Florida 97, LSU 100, South Carolina 102 and Georgia 96 players. During that same span State has signed 84.

the answer needs to be a hard cap at say 17 pr 18 per year, no exceptions. these guys run off the lower quality guys every year and simply refill with the next batch. then they get rewarded with national championships and $ 6-8MM salaries. this stinks to high heaven and no one is collectively as bad as this as the SEC. Yet everyone loves them to death.

Let's not let the facts get in the way.  According to the article there are 4 players who likely will not be back (criminal charges), 1 who gray shirted and 4 who have completed a 4 year scholarship and have seen little playing time.  That gets Bama to 86, one over the limit.  I'll bet, like most other programs, Bama will lose a few more players prior to July.

I'd say it is prudent to ensure that you sign a few extra players.  Look at what is happening here - we seeming lose players prior to fall every year.  In fact, many on here not long ago were complaining that we did not have a full 85 scholarship players on the team.

WUF84 wrote: I really think this is an issue that should be addressed by the NCAA.  Also, a kid should have a four year scholarship as long as they remain in good academic standing and don't get into legal trouble.  It should not be a year to year scholarship.  If they are injured, then they should still count on the scholarship number or the NCAA needs to have a fund for these kids.  Some schools can not afford to provide an additional scholarship from another source while others (UNC) have there own program set up for this.  The playing field should be evened out.   I see Alabama signed 25 this year and 26 last year.  That means quite a few need to drop off to meet the 85 number each year.

noah wrote: And then there's the Nick Saban Memorial Hospital Fund. He was notorious for giving medical hardships to kids for hangnails and paper cuts. That meant the kid couldn't transfer to another school.

I have a buddy who is a Michigan graduate. He was totally opposed to playing Alabama in the season opener. That surprised me considering UM's general preference for a tough non-conference schedule. 

He pointed out that over the last four years, Alabama had signed something like 40 more kids than Michigan had. Basically, they had just skimmed the top of each recruiting class over and over and over again. 

It's one thing to play the best in the country. It's another to do it when you're operating by an entirely different set of rules.

Which rules are they breaking?  If they aren't breaking any rules, don't hate Bama.......hate the rules.

Your friend is just chicken.  According to the CBS chart, Bama signed 101, Michigan 94 from 2009 - 2012. 

noah wrote: And then there's the Nick Saban Memorial Hospital Fund. He was notorious for giving medical hardships to kids for hangnails and paper cuts. That meant the kid couldn't transfer to another school.

I have a buddy who is a Michigan graduate. He was totally opposed to playing Alabama in the season opener. That surprised me considering UM's general preference for a tough non-conference schedule. 

He pointed out that over the last four years, Alabama had signed something like 40 more kids than Michigan had. Basically, they had just skimmed the top of each recruiting class over and over and over again. 

It's one thing to play the best in the country. It's another to do it when you're operating by an entirely different set of rules.

Here's how I would rectify the situation:

1) Eliminate year-to-year scholarships. If a school offers a kid a scholarship, that scholarship should remain effective until either (a) the kid exhausts his NCAA eligibility; or (b) the kid is no longer enrolled in the university, whichever comes first. This would effectively guarantee each kid a scholarship as long as he can keep his grades up. If a kid is dismissed from the university, he no longer counts towards the 85 man limit. If a kid leaves the university prior to the end of his 4-year eligibility window, the school must provide reasoning to the NCAA as to why that player is no longer enrolled. It must be approved by the NCAA before the school is able to use that scholarship on another player.

2) Keep the medical hardship waiver rule (because it truly benefits players who actually suffer career-ending injuries), but enforce it with further scrutiny. The exact methodology of doing this I am uncertain of, but it definitely would need monitoring. Basically, just make sure that the guys getting this benefit are the ones who actually need it. NCAA should rule on each instance on a case-by-case basis, and it is up to the school to provide evidence that the player actually deserves the hardship. If it cannot be proven that the player has suffered a college-career-ending injury, he does not get the hardship and remains as a part of the 85-man scholarship limit. This, of course, is assuming there is no favoritism/corruption within the NCAA and the cases would be treated fairly across all schools.

3) The NCAA "head count" for each team (85 man limit) should be determined at the end date of the national signing period each Winter/Spring. There would be no restrictions on the number of players you can sign in one class, only that you must be at or below the 85 scholarship limit on this date. If you are expecting 50 returning players for the next season, you should be able to sign 35 to get you to the 85 man limit (if you want to, of course). This would eliminate the possibility for teams to over-sign and then effectively cut players over the Spring and Summer before the season starts. Not putting a cap on the number of players per class would allow teams to make up for unexpected attrition in the following recruiting class. (For example:  Let's say Alabama signs 25 kids this year and 10 of them don't qualify [lol, I know, but humor me here...]. The following year they should be allowed to sign more players to make up for those 10 players that didn't qualify.)

4) Establish an early signing period like there is for basketball. I think the best time for an early signing period would be in the late Summer, right before the start of the season, so that some of these kids can get recruiting out of the way and enjoy their senior year/football season. The only drawback here is that a lot of times a kid can get seriously injured and get his scholarship pulled. Universities would have to do a pro/con analysis for each player; do they go ahead and get him signed so that other schools can't recruit him, but then risk losing a scholarship if he gets injured? Or is the kid marginal enough in talent that they can wait and let it play out?

In cases of career-ending injuries, I think that the medical hardship waiver should apply here:  If a kid has already signed a letter of intent and gets a career-ending injury in his senior year of high school, the school that he signed with should get a waiver and be allowed to sign someone else in his place. The kid would have to sign a consent agreement stating that he acknowledges his career-ending injury and he will never play football for the school with which he signed. It should be up to the university whether or not they still allow the kid to enroll. (This would eliminate teams from overstating an injury in high school and letting the kid still come and play/practice with the team while not counting towards the scholarship limit.)


Obviously there are ways to exploit those, but let's be honest--it's not like the current rules aren't being exploited or anything.

This is slightly off topic, but I have always wondered about the service academies and how their recruits are counted.  This past year Air Force is listed as having signed 41 guys!  Is that just everyone that got an appointment to the school that also played football in high school or are their types of scholarships looked at differently?

myworldisred wrote: Here's how I would rectify the situation:

[edit]
(3) The NCAA "head count" for each team (85 man limit) should be determined at the end date of the national signing period each Winter/Spring. There would be no restrictions on the number of players you can sign in one class, only that you must be at or below the 85 scholarship limit on this date. If you are expecting 50 returning players for the next season, you should be able to sign 35 to get you to the 85 man limit (if you want to, of course). This would eliminate the possibility for teams to over-sign and then effectively cut players over the Spring and Summer before the season starts. Not putting a cap on the number of players per class would allow teams to make up for unexpected attrition in the following recruiting class. (For example:  Let's say Alabama signs 25 kids this year and 10 of them don't qualify [lol, I know, but humor me here...]. The following year they should be allowed to sign more players to make up for those 10 players that didn't qualify.)

IMO, If you sign a non-qualifier then you should take a hit for at least a year before you can make it up.  Would up the expectations on who is getting assistance and if a kid can't get in/qualify shouldn't have been offered to start with.

Roll Tide

Just win baby...

jaybird80 wrote: This is slightly off topic, but I have always wondered about the service academies and how their recruits are counted.  This past year Air Force is listed as having signed 41 guys!  Is that just everyone that got an appointment to the school that also played football in high school or are their types of scholarships looked at differently?

It is my understanding that there are no athletic schollys at service academies.  Everyone is on scholarship.

But then you penalize the school for kids who transfer or fail out.

Face it, at ncsu only 1 in 3 graduate from ncsu as a rule on teh student body. Don't forget that.

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--- daly1 wrote:

the answer needs to be a hard cap at say 17 pr 18 per year, no exceptions. these guys run off the lower quality guys every year and simply refill with the next batch. then they get rewarded with national championships and $ 6-8MM salaries. this stinks to high heaven and no one is collectively as bad as this as the SEC. Yet everyone loves them to death.

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Bear Bryant was reincarnated as Nick Saban.

Isn't Bear Bryant the reason we have scholarship limits today? Bama is to college football the way Walmart has been to mega retail

WUF84 wrote: I really think this is an issue that should be addressed by the NCAA.  Also, a kid should have a four year scholarship as long as they remain in good academic standing and don't get into legal trouble.  It should not be a year to year scholarship.  If they are injured, then they should still count on the scholarship number or the NCAA needs to have a fund for these kids.  Some schools can not afford to provide an additional scholarship from another source while others (UNC) have there own program set up for this.  The playing field should be evened out.   I see Alabama signed 25 this year and 26 last year.  That means quite a few need to drop off to meet the 85 number each year.

This has been addressed by the NCAA.  Schools are now allowed to offer multi-year scholarships that provide 5 years of education.  The thinking is that schools that offer these guaruntees (Ohio State, Auburn, Michigan, Michigan State, Florida and Nebraska) will have a recruiting advatage of those that don't (Alabama).  These scholarships put an additional financial burden on the schools because if they compete for 4 years, the university still has to fund their 5th year of college.  It wouldn't count against sport scholarship counts though.  I can't remember the specifics around if a player is "cut", but for some bigger schools it won't matter as they would be able to fund 150 scholarships.  The pain will be felt by schools in our range as we can't afford to afford extra scholarships to athletes that are not participating.

http://ctsportslaw.com/2012/03...r-scholarships/

But you can't tell kids **** sometimes...

2packfans4ever wrote:

jaybird80 wrote: This is slightly off topic, but I have always wondered about the service academies and how their recruits are counted.  This past year Air Force is listed as having signed 41 guys!  Is that just everyone that got an appointment to the school that also played football in high school or are their types of scholarships looked at differently?

It is my understanding that there are no athletic schollys at service academies.  Everyone is on scholarship.

This is correct.  Everyone who attends a service academy has everything paid for.  We don't refer to it as a "scholarship," but it's basically true.

Future academy athletes do not sign a National LOI, so they are not bound to go to an Academy.  Also, Academy coaches do not comment on their future athletes until they actually show up on campus in the summer for Basic Cadet Training.  Finally, Academy athletes can drop out of their sport at any time and still remain for the duration, graduate, and go into the service.  This actually happens quite often.

There may be other reasons why the academies are looked at differently.  They are similar to the Ivy League in many ways, with regards to athletes.  They really don't get many players who are being looked at by other Div 1 schools, anyway.  Finally, they have a lot of attrition over the four years.

Talon83 wrote:

2packfans4ever wrote:

jaybird80 wrote: This is slightly off topic, but I have always wondered about the service academies and how their recruits are counted.  This past year Air Force is listed as having signed 41 guys!  Is that just everyone that got an appointment to the school that also played football in high school or are their types of scholarships looked at differently?

It is my understanding that there are no athletic schollys at service academies.  Everyone is on scholarship.

This is correct.  Everyone who attends a service academy has everything paid for.  We don't refer to it as a "scholarship," but it's basically true.

Future academy athletes do not sign a National LOI, so they are not bound to go to an Academy.  Also, Academy coaches do not comment on their future athletes until they actually show up on campus in the summer for Basic Cadet Training.  Finally, Academy athletes can drop out of their sport at any time and still remain for the duration, graduate, and go into the service.  This actually happens quite often.

There may be other reasons why the academies are looked at differently.  They are similar to the Ivy League in many ways, with regards to athletes.  They really don't get many players who are being looked at by other Div 1 schools, anyway.  Finally, they have a lot of attrition over the four years.

Thanks for the clarification guys!

BravesPanthersPack wrote in part: Isn't Bear Bryant the reason we have scholarship limits today?

Texas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska were the worst offenders but a lot of schools signed huge classes. Obvioulsy an advantage to schools that could afford it. Schools would sign kids just so they would not have to play against them at another school.

Back in the day SI had a two page photo spread of Nebraska's players warming up before a Spring practice. They were spaced the usual distance apart on each yardline. They covered the field from one goal line to the other. Nebraksa would have more players "walk ons" than they woulkd have in their signing class. Talk about the waiver wire!

Also back in the day it was not unusual for some of the perennial powers to dress out 100+ players for home games.

^that's ridiculous. No wonder the style of play has changed so much over the years...

back then you could run up the middle with a 10 running back rotation!

TauWolf wrote: But then you penalize the school for kids who transfer or fail out.

Face it, at ncsu only 1 in 3 graduate from ncsu as a rule on teh student body. Don't forget that.

---------------------------------------------
--- daly1 wrote:

the answer needs to be a hard cap at say 17 pr 18 per year, no exceptions. these guys run off the lower quality guys every year and simply refill with the next batch. then they get rewarded with national championships and $ 6-8MM salaries. this stinks to high heaven and no one is collectively as bad as this as the SEC. Yet everyone loves them to death.

---------------------------------------------

Our [six year] graduation rate is higher than 33%.

I'd like to see the number of scholarships ratcheted down from 85 to something lower.  Reducing it by 1 a year for 5 years would do a few things:
1. Save money
2. Move slightly toward Title IX compliance
3. Increase parity, since the top talent would be spread a bit thinner
4. Reduce the number of kids who get signed above their playing level, work hard, and never see the field

I agree with some other posters that a scholarship should be until you (a) graduate, (b) run out of eligibility, or (c) get kicked out.  But, I wonder: what do you do with the kid who played hard his first two years, never saw the field, and mails it in?  Doesn't show up to practice, etc.?  Keeps his grades up, but doesn't play ball?