Agreed...though the ship may have sailed...Duke and UNC have gone to Mars since 1990 while NC State went down the toilet bowl. Damage done...NC State has never had a coach stay for 30 years like UNC and Duke have...Can NC State even make a quick run like Florida just to get back into the thick of things? I think UNC and Duke are more likely to add another national title before NC State finally wins another...

Wolfpack4Life wrote:

tabramos wrote: Yes...it is a huge rivalry..the whole world knows that...was it always that way...if so ...Phil Ford...a UNC great...does not seem to agree with you...

I never said anything about 50 or even 40 years ago.  The more important question is, how can we at NC State make our rivalry with unccheat and to a lesser extent duke more hyped, anticipated, and given its due as great rivalry games.  You do that by winning against them and winning titles.

And NC State ran him off...what was NC State thinking? Did they think that they could just replace Valvano and remain within striking distance of UNC and Duke which were really taking off as programs? Did the administration think NC State was perceived nationally the same way as Duke and UNC? Well...if academics were their concern...then getting rid of V did not help. NC State's academic reputation never improved and in fact probably became worse during the slide in basketball...

WOLFDAC wrote: V was 14-9 vs K with two ACC titles and one Natty.....nuff said.

tabramos wrote: And NC State ran him off...what was NC State thinking? Did they think that they could just replace Valvano and remain within striking distance of UNC and Duke which were really taking off as programs? Did the administration think NC State was perceived nationally the same way as Duke and UNC? Well...if academics were their concern...then getting rid of V did not help. NC State's academic reputation never improved and in fact probably became worse during the slide in basketball...

WOLFDAC wrote: V was 14-9 vs K with two ACC titles and one Natty.....nuff said.

V offered to stay at State for a $1 a year due to his love of this place, why did outside powers force him out, just watch his "I have Dream" tape he used in recruiting. It was and is the biggest mistake we ever made, especially since the NCAA found only minor infractions that would have not slowed us down that much. That my friend is another story, for another day.

tabramos wrote: ^^^^^^Yes...it is a huge rivalry..the whole world knows that via ESPN...was it always that way?...if so ...Phil Ford...a UNC great...does not seem to agree with you...Michael Jordan never even talked up the Duke game...this isn't about whether UNC-Duke is a great rivalry today...it is and has been for more than two decades...however...was it this immense, great rivalry in 1940? 1950? 1960? 1970? 1980? The question was simple...most of you keep replying about Duke's overall success in basketball...that was never the question...the question of a great rivalry is different than the success of two great programs in Duke and UNC...

It's not a great rivalry unless the competitors are great over a period of time although one or the other may have a down year or even a few years now and then. Muhammad Ali hated Trevor Berbick but you seldom hear of an Ali-Berbick rivalry. You never heard much of a great Yankees - Red Sox rivalry between the late 1940s and 1977 or so because the Red Sox sucked in the 1950s and almost all of the 1960s and the Yankees weren't very good in the late 1960s.

Ford graduated from RMHS in 1974. Duke had not been appeared in the NCAAT since he was in the fourth grade. Duke won one ACC title in the 1970s when Jordan grew up. As I recall N.C. State and UNC were both very good in the 1970s so Ford and Jordan paid attention to the State-UNC rivalry and not so much to Duke-UNC.

tabramos wrote: There is no mutual admiration between Harvard-Yale and they are huge rivals in everything. They do not gush at each other and they are both academically superior to Duke-UNC. USC-UCLA hate each other and both are excellent academic and athletic schools. Cal-Stanford have no mutual admiration for each other and they are both world class academic universities (the kind that win Nobel prizes) and both have excellent overall athletic programs.

Never once heard Michael Jordan or Sam Perkins gush about Duke. If anything, Jordan had a soft side for NC State and notice how silent the national media was when Jordan selected David Thompson to present him at the Hall of Fame? You would think that would have been a big story. Not selecting somebody from the Carolina Family but rather from NC State? That in itself should have got them talking but I would submit that ESPN is interested in protecting the Duke-UNC brand. NC State has done nothing for more than two decades other than shoot itself in the foot many times but the Jordan-Thompson thing should have opened up a conversation as to why he selected David Thompson and how he was an NC State fan growing up and might have even gone to State if Norm Sloan had still been the coach. This would have been positive press for NC State but the UNC lovers at ESPN would never tell the story.

One of my secondary points is this whole mutual admiration thing almost seems concocted by UNC-Duke alumni and their supporters at ESPN.  I doubt they really admire each other. Most UNC students could not get admitted to Duke so I am not sure what Duke alumni including its players would admire about UNC? Duke has almost caught UNC basketball under Coach K in pretty much every respect...Duke basketball is like Notre Dame in football...people love to watch Duke play nationally because they either like Duke or hate them so much they want to see them lose...Duke is actually superior to UNC in every way now except they need one more national title to catch UNC...  

Duke-UNC can always be the top rivalry from the Triangle because based on the overall success of their programs they deserve that. However, my point the whole time is that NC State is not insignificant in the Triangle rivalries historically and its basketball history has been quite relevant. The history between NC State and Duke is significant but the national media (ESPN) does not want to acknowledge it including people like Jay Bilas. Vic Bubas took Duke to three Final Fours and Bucky Waters also coached there and was a long time administrator. Bubas put Duke on the national map. These were NC State guys that Duke turned to. Duke basketball's long time play by play radio guy is an NC State graduate. Now, I am not saying that these points make Duke-NC State big rivals but the history of these two schools is more intertwined than Duke-UNC yet ESPN really buries it. Duke people seem really bothered by the fact that NC State has had that kind of role in Duke's basketball history. Where is the UNC influence on Duke since they admire each other so much? None...

Here are some other tidbits. Dean Smith was hired by an NC State guy..William Aycock...the Chancellor of UNC and who hired Aycock as Chancellor at UNC...another NC State guy named William Friday. I know both men were UNC alumni also and that is where their loyalties probably were but NC State is way underplayed as a school regardless of whether the topic is basketball or academics. Most UNC alumni do not even realize that an NC State graduate was chancellor of their university and that would eat them up especially since he hired Deano but for some reason they do not get worked about Paul Hardin (a Duke graduate) being their chancellor. Speaking of chancellors, a NC State graduate was also Chancellor at UCLA not too long ago.

There is this weird dynamic in the State of North Carolina that somehow promoting NC State as a national brand is bad for the flagship campus to the point that NC State is held back. You do not find this to be true in other states. Indiana-Purdue is exactly like UNC-NC state in terms of being complementary universities. Purdue's academic offerings are almost an exact duplicate of NC State yet Purdue is a world class top 10 engineering school and is well regarded overall in the national rankings of universities keeping in mind that like State Purdue does not have a law school or medical and health sciences programs.  UCLA was once a Teacher's College and today is a world class university but it is the second campus of the UC System..not the flagship. Texas will always be bigger than Texas A&M but A&M stands on its own as a nationally ranked well regarded university.

PenderWolf wrote: Are you asking about their mutual admiration for each other? Really?? Do you not hear Mike G, Bilas, gush about Carolina/ Makes you wonder if they wish they had not attended Carolina. I know that Carolina deserves the respect but I stand by statement about true rivals. I am in my early 50's and have older brothers who say that the big rivals in the 50's was State-Carolina.So rivals "change" like shifting sand at the beach. I am friends with lots of Carolina fans and graduates, they still hate losing to us more than they do Duke. They do not like Duke but they hate us, more important "nationally" to their 2 camps of Wal-Mart fans.

tabramos wrote: What would the "mutual admiration" be ?

Big 4 Country wrote:

PenderWolf wrote: I know I will be blasted for this but, IMO, a true rivalry is a team that you hate to lose to more than anyone else in the world. I think that Duke/UNCCHeat are the pinnacle of basketball programs in the ACC. I don't think they are true rivals though. When I think of true rivals, I think of Alabama/Auburn, Ohio St./Michigan, even Red Sox/Yankees. Cheat fans may not like losing to Duke but they absolutely HATE losing to us. Plus, does this "rivalry" spill over to the other sports? I know that Carolina gets up for our football/baseball games more than they do Duke, so I ask you, where is this intense hatred for one another? I think they have mutual admiration for one another and need each other but Carolina hate State and vice versa.

Well Duke and UNC fans sure do hate losing to each other even more than NC State.  Like you said though, NC State vs UNC is a bigger baseball and football rivalry than Duke vs UNC.  It is all about who is good, or better than you. 

As for the comment above about how the palyers respect each other, I saw Hodge shooting with the UNC players on their side of the court about an hour before a game at the PNC Center one time.  Players in most rivalries respect each other, it is the fans that make a big deal out of the game.

I don't think anyone is avoiding promoting NC State, we have just shot ourselves in the foot over and over again like you said.  TV networks like a winner and so do nuetral fans.  NC State vs UNC will get twice the hype of Duke vs UNC as long as we become their equal and start winning more titles than Duke and even UNC.  Until then no one will care about NC State, or any other ACC school that plays UNC except for Duke.

TR, you may want to search the google news archive to get a feel for the quality of the Duke_UNC rivalry in prehistoric times.

1958-McGuire Denies He Requested Police Protection at Duke Indoor

OldNorthStatesman wrote:

tabramos wrote: ^^^^^^Yes...it is a huge rivalry..the whole world knows that via ESPN...was it always that way?...if so ...Phil Ford...a UNC great...does not seem to agree with you...Michael Jordan never even talked up the Duke game...this isn't about whether UNC-Duke is a great rivalry today...it is and has been for more than two decades...however...was it this immense, great rivalry in 1940? 1950? 1960? 1970? 1980? The question was simple...most of you keep replying about Duke's overall success in basketball...that was never the question...the question of a great rivalry is different than the success of two great programs in Duke and UNC...

It's not a great rivalry unless the competitors are great over a period of time although one or the other may have a down year or even a few years now and then. Muhammad Ali hated Trevor Berbick but you seldom hear of an Ali-Berbick rivalry. You never heard much of a great Yankees - Red Sox rivalry between the late 1940s and 1977 or so because the Red Sox sucked in the 1950s and almost all of the 1960s and the Yankees weren't very good in the late 1960s.

Ford graduated from RMHS in 1974. Duke had not been appeared in the NCAAT since he was in the fourth grade. Duke won one ACC title in the 1970s when Jordan grew up. As I recall N.C. State and UNC were both very good in the 1970s so Ford and Jordan paid attention to the State-UNC rivalry and not so much to Duke-UNC.

Year in and year out, there have been a bunch of nationally ranked versus nationally ranked games between Duke and uncch games for 20 years. They are geographically close. College basketball is nationally televised a lot. That makes it a big rivalry. In the DT years, most State fans would rather beat Lefty's teams than uncch. What are we whining about? No point shaving we would have possibly been uncch's primary rival in basketball for 50 years. No Chris Washburn, maybe for the last 35 years there would have been a three headed rivalry. If NCAA does what it should and slaps uncch back into recruiting semi-students and K retires who knows what the big rivalry in the ACC will be. 
If Gott returns the program to parity with Duke and uncch, maybe we will be part of a 'big rivalry'. Whining about what a lot of fans think about big rivalries and our woes is not productive.

OldNorthStatesman wrote: 1958 - Frank McGuire's Actions Revolting says Duke football coach

I think we can all agree, that Frank was a bad bad man....50 freaking years ago. Now he is dead.

OldNorthStatesman wrote: 1958 - Frank McGuire's Actions Revolting says Duke football coach

I find the other articles on the sports page interesting.  N C State finished the regular season with a victory over Wake Forest in Raleigh.  Also note to the right of the page (sadly part of the article is cropped out) an article about a high school basketball tournament in Greensboro.  Photo of Roman Gabriel playing for Wilmington.  Believe it said he was tourney MVP.

tabramos wrote: And NC State ran him off...what was NC State thinking? Did they think that they could just replace Valvano and remain within striking distance of UNC and Duke which were really taking off as programs? Did the administration think NC State was perceived nationally the same way as Duke and UNC? Well...if academics were their concern...then getting rid of V did not help. NC State's academic reputation never improved and in fact probably became worse during the slide in basketball...

WOLFDAC wrote: V was 14-9 vs K with two ACC titles and one Natty.....nuff said.

yeah, that's the thing - talk about a lose/lose & what a waste the past 20 years were.

CESODwolf wrote:

OldNorthStatesman wrote: 1958 - Frank McGuire's Actions Revolting says Duke football coach

I find the other articles on the sports page interesting.  N C State finished the regular season with a victory over Wake Forest in Raleigh.  Also note to the right of the page (sadly part of the article is cropped out) an article about a high school basketball tournament in Greensboro.  Photo of Roman Gabriel playing for Wilmington.  Believe it said he was tourney MVP.

I missed that. It was fun to move around on that page and see Lou Pucillo named to the All-ACC team.
But getting back to the thread, in those days the Big Four rivalry was like the Big Five in Philadelphia. It was more of 4 headed rivalry and much more local than today. Fact is, as much as State fans hate the attention to the heels and Blue Devils, it is a huge rivalry and has been for 20 years. But these things change. Trying to belittle the rivalry sounds like a little kid complaining about the attention his brother and sister get (the sister being uncch)