I grew up in North Carolina during the 1980's and remember old ACC basketball fondly. In 1986, ESPN covered Triangle hoops and the rivalry among all three schools. People like Michael Jordan won all of his games against Duke except for one (have to look this one up but it is close). I do not recall the immense hype over Duke-North Carolina during the 1980s. I do remember it starting to build up with ESPN's hype beginning in 1990 big time. However, they make it seem like it has always been huge. What I recall is that UNC usually won and still holds a significant historical edge.

So, old timers, what is the real scoop on this rivalry historically and vis a vis NC State in the picture? To me, the media has overstated the rivalry between UNC-Duke in historical terms while downplaying NC State's significance as a rival and its role in Tobacco Road hoops history. NC State is made out to be some afterthought.

Both schools combined have won 7 national titles since '91. Guess that has a little bit to do with it.

A lot of powerful and influential people wanted it this way, and basically made it happen.  That combined with a couple of decades worth of poor leadership and short-sightedness within NC State University leadership has helped turn us into an afterthought.

We can get back, but there is a long read ahead to get there. 
At least we now appear to be positioning ourselves to get back where we belong.

Gopack80 wrote: Both schools combined have won 7 national titles since '91. Guess that has a little bit to do with it.

And as many as 4 of them could be legit!

I would say it really took off during the 1991-1993 period where Duke went back to back and then Carolina won the title after that.  Happened around the same time we went into basketball purgatory.

Gopack80 wrote: Both schools combined have won 7 national titles since '91. Guess that has a little bit to do with it.

And a gang of ACC titles as well. When you have two schools that have dominated college basketball like that in the last 20 years or so, and they play 2-3 times each year and are only 8 miles apart, it's gonna get a lot of hype. Carolina has seemingly always been really good, and with Duke's rise in 1986 (37-3, national runner up), the rivalry took on a life of its own.

It's a rivalry for those in school and watching on TV, and those that live in Chapel Hill or Durham.  But everyone knows the true family against family, husband against wife, father against son, friend against friend rivalry is State-Carolina.  Truth is, there just aren't alot of Duke fans in NC.

Most UNC fans will tell you they love beating Duke more than anything, but absolutely HATE losing to State.

Alot of it has to do with us being irrelevant for the last 20+ years as well.  Similar to why State-Carolina is the football rivalry while Duke-UNC is an afterthought.

jorwolf wrote: A lot of powerful and influential people wanted it this way, and basically made it happen.  

How did they make Duke and UNC into national powers?

Growing up in NC in the '60s and '70s, it seemed like the intense rivalry was NC State and UNC-CH, but that all Tobacco Road schools were rivals. While Duke and Wake seemed to compete with the other two and had occasionally good teams, the strong hatred was between us and Carolina. Sometimes we also played each other four times in one season (Big Four tournament to start the season, twice in the regular season, and then in the ACC tournament).

I think the evidence of how strong our rivalry was is that until late 1990's/early2000's, the Carolina fight song included the phrase "Go to Hell State" instead of "Go to Hell Duke."

rswilli2 wrote:

jorwolf wrote: A lot of powerful and influential people wanted it this way, and basically made it happen.  

How did they make Duke and UNC into national powers?

 It was done by the same secret cabal that made NCSU hire bad  coaches.

Pack87 wrote: I would say it really took off during the 1991-1993 period where Duke went back to back and then Carolina won the title after that.  Happened around the same time we went into basketball purgatory.

This.  It was the perfect storm for NC State to get pushed aside.  If NC State baskeball can get back to winning the occasional ACC Tounament and making deep runs in the NCAAs then they will hype our games with them a little more.  But aside from duplicating the success that they've had our games will never get the attention that the their game gets.

Oh yeah, we also need to beat them more than once every 5 years.  Obviously, this season is a step in the right direction.

Always been good, but the rivalry grew with their success and ESPN's rapid rise to sports dominance. It was a perfect storm - MJ, ESPN, their success. We may have been part of the equation but the NC BOG handcuffed us and let us die on the grapevine. The jealousy of the BOG and its members toward Valvano, who was a head of his time with respect to coaches making money with books/endorsements/etc, was unbelievable.

rswilli2 wrote:

Gopack80 wrote: Both schools combined have won 7 national titles since '91. Guess that has a little bit to do with it.

And a gang of ACC titles as well. When you have two schools that have dominated college basketball like that in the last 20 years or so, and they play 2-3 times each year and are only 8 miles apart, it's gonna get a lot of hype. Carolina has seemingly always been really good, and with Duke's rise in 1986 (37-3, national runner up), the rivalry took on a life of its own.

yeah, NCSU basically falling off the map for 20 years sure helped those 2 do that.

rswilli2 wrote:

jorwolf wrote: A lot of powerful and influential people wanted it this way, and basically made it happen.  

How did they make Duke and UNC into national powers?

I'm not implying that someone magically made Duke and UNC great, but that NC State got hamstrung so as not to be able to challenge the blues for so long.

Of course, in the case of UNC, a little unchecked cheating also had a little to do with it.

-Edit to add that NC State continuously torpedoing itself with well, let's just say not the best ADs and coaches, had a LOT to do with the irrelevance as well.

It was always a rivalry anytime the Big 4 played each other. When the acc was formed, State /Cheat was the bigger game and stayed that way till shortly after K made Duke into what it is today.

We done this to ourselves. Over a few tickets sold for beer and pizza money, shoe rooms full of shoes, just sign here! a Few players not going to class as they should, a crazy popular coach, weak AD's who weren't State people at all. weak Admin. who didn't see that sports is your school. Its a huge amount of things that we are playing catch up too.

No, it wasn't. But we live in the present. And in the present, Duke and Carolina are the premier rivalry in the ACC. Sucks, but that's how it goes when you suck *** for decades.

If we keep beating UNC, you'd better believe that rivalry will be back and just as strong as it ever was.

Duke and UNC were very good in the 60s too, but most people around here ignore that. They both went to mulitiple final 4s.

kpm wrote:

rswilli2 wrote:

jorwolf wrote: A lot of powerful and influential people wanted it this way, and basically made it happen.  

How did they make Duke and UNC into national powers?

 It was done by the same secret cabal that made NCSU hire bad  coaches.

LOL

tabramos,

The Big Four was big until recently. For much of the 20th century it was actually the Big Five including Davidson. Newspapers often referred to the "state championship" in football and basketball. The elimination of an annual round robin Big Four schedule in football and double round robin in basketball has eliminated or at least diminished the rivalries.

UNC-CHeat wanted and needed a "Rival" to pump them up to be the overhyped, over rated, cheating fakers they are (and always were). The "rival" for years was State, then V and Company started to make things a little uncomfortable over on Whiskey Hill, by challenging their perch, so they set out to destroy State and V, and did a mighty fine job of it. Duke had always been a Rival, but after States' demise, they, with the help of the ESPN Hype Machine, really built it up.
Duke was, and is, a safe Rival for the narcissistic Cheaters; They simply don't have the local fans and Alumni of State, so they don't present the same type challenge to UNC-CHeat's claim to Wal-Mart Popularity in NC, Va, and other close by areas. Duke may beat Carolina, but Carolina will always be most popular at home. They are not all that concerned with us ABC'ers. They think it's envy, and that makes them feel even bigger.

It seems that it is in Carolina's perceived best interests to have Duke very good, and State weak, or at least weaker. I still say that if State ever does really get good in football, and/or back to where we belong in basketball, look out; we really are a "Sleeping Giant" in NC.

This thread makes us look like the little brother that can't play with the big boys. just shut it down.

On a local level the State-Unc rivalry means more to people in NC.  On a national level the Duke-Unc rivalry is significantly more important.

I see a lot of people on here slamming the Duke-Unc rivalry and it comes across as sour grapes.  The Duke-Unc rivalry does not diminish the State-Unc rivalry in any way shape or form.  In fact I think their rivalry gives State a chance to gain even more national recognition by fielding competitive teams (Like this year) that can beat both the blues. 

You can't argue with the numbers, Duke and Unc have dominated the ACC.  Both are 1 and 2 in regular season championships and ACC tournament championships. Unc has the most final fours and Duke is third.  

"Wednesday's game will mark the 136th straight in which at least one of the teams is nationally ranked, dating back to 1960. Amazingly, at least one of the teams has been in the top-10 in 124 of those games." 

That is a pretty absurd statistic.

State has nobody to blame but themselves, being in basketball purgatory for over 20 years has diminished the State brand.  Now there is finally positive mojo surrounding the program, top recruits are taking notice, Espn is taking notice (See gameday) and the nation is becoming re-introduced to NC State. 

Plus this is the United States of America where we love winners.  So like they say  "Just win baby" and the rest will take care of itself.

PackofCards wrote:

Pack87 wrote: I would say it really took off during the 1991-1993 period where Duke went back to back and then Carolina won the title after that.  Happened around the same time we went into basketball purgatory.

This.  It was the perfect storm for NC State to get pushed aside.  If NC State baskeball can get back to winning the occasional ACC Tounament and making deep runs in the NCAAs then they will hype our games with them a little more.  But aside from duplicating the success that they've had our games will never get the attention that the their game gets.

Oh yeah, we also need to beat them more than once every 5 years.  Obviously, this season is a step in the right direction.

Bingo! I have always maintained that the timing of the "de-emphasizing" of athletics at NC State couldn't have come at a worse time. It coincided with the explosion of college basketball on ESPN and some of the best years of the ACC. From 1991-1996 you not only had UNC and Duke at the top of their game, but Wake Forest, Maryland, Georgia Tech, and even Florida State were making headlines nationally. It seemed like every night on SportsCenter the first 5 minutes were whatever Michael Jordan was up to, and then a 15 minute rundown of ACC basketball highlights from every team in the league, with one notable exception. There were some legendary ACC Tournaments in those years, and in every single one of them, we were an afterthought in the play-in game.

StateFan03 wrote: This thread makes us look like the little brother that can't play with the big boys. just shut it down.

actually the 3 coaches after V made it look that way.

At least one of those two teams was in the final four 10 out of 12 years from 1985-1997. I'd say during that period they were likely the two most successful programs in college basketball, and being separated by a dozen miles stoked national interest. I'd say 92-93 was when it really took off.

Pack87 wrote: I would say it really took off during the 1991-1993 period where Duke went back to back and then Carolina won the title after that.  Happened around the same time we went into basketball purgatory.

I agree with this, in that State has no one to blame but itself for our time in Basketball Purgatory. Monteith and others let it happen by overeaction on a grand scale. But, I still believe UNC and their minions at the "old" N&O were ultimately behind it. State didn't defend itself as we should have.
And yes, State-Carolina will always mean more in NC. If we keep beating them, we will see exactly how much more !

BigBlind wrote: On a local level the State-Unc rivalry means more to people in NC.  On a national level the Duke-Unc rivalry is significantly more important.

I see a lot of people on here slamming the Duke-Unc rivalry and it comes across as sour grapes.  The Duke-Unc rivalry does not diminish the State-Unc rivalry in any way shape or form.  In fact I think their rivalry gives State a chance to gain even more national recognition by fielding competitive teams (Like this year) that can beat both the blues. 

You can't argue with the numbers, Duke and Unc have dominated the ACC.  Both are 1 and 2 in regular season championships and ACC tournament championships. Unc has the most final fours and Duke is third.  

"Wednesday's game will mark the 136th straight in which at least one of the teams is nationally ranked, dating back to 1960. Amazingly, at least one of the teams has been in the top-10 in 124 of those games." 

That is a pretty absurd statistic.

State has nobody to blame but themselves, being in basketball purgatory for over 20 years has diminished the State brand.  Now there is finally positive mojo surrounding the program, top recruits are taking notice, Espn is taking notice (See gameday) and the nation is becoming re-introduced to NC State. 

Plus this is the United States of America where we love winners.  So like they say  "Just win baby" and the rest will take care of itself.

State-Carolina will never get back to where Pack fans want it. I mean, those ******** think Kentucky is one of their main rivals now. They're just on a different planet of thinking than us. Doesn't make them any better than us, quite the contrary. But they don't view State as a credible threat really, especially in basketball. Unless we were to start winning titles left and right, Carolina fans will continue to look at Duke, Kentucky, Kansas as their only equals.

downeasterner wrote: Growing up in NC in the '60s and '70s, it seemed like the intense rivalry was NC State and UNC-CH, but that all Tobacco Road schools were rivals. While Duke and Wake seemed to compete with the other two and had occasionally good teams, the strong hatred was between us and Carolina. Sometimes we also played each other four times in one season (Big Four tournament to start the season, twice in the regular season, and then in the ACC tournament).

I think the evidence of how strong our rivalry was is that until late 1990's/early2000's, the Carolina fight song included the phrase "Go to Hell State" instead of "Go to Hell Duke."

This.

Up until the early 1990's NCSU/UNC was a bigger rivalry than UNC/Duke.  Not by a whole lot, but some. 

As Pack87 mentions - the twin events of UNC and Duke winning championships in the early 90's, as well as our rapid and complete downfall, shifted the rivalry.   Unfortunately that was also the timing of the rise of ESPN, which helped cement that rivalry in stone.

In order to get back to there something major has to happen, or else a whole lot of time and string of bad coaches after K at Duke, or both.

Most feasible IMO would be to cement a fairly even 3-way rivalry between the three of us, which seems like it'd be pretty cool actually - something similar to FSU/UM/UF in football.

The rivalry is sort of helped out by the fact that State hasn't won a title in over 20 years (ACCT/NCAAT) while Duke and UNC combined have won many. It's not a grand conspiracy.

Start winning some games, start beating Duke/UNC with some regularity, and our matchup with both of them will be hyped.

Gopack80 wrote: Both schools combined have won 7 national titles since '91. Guess that has a little bit to do with it.

But that doesn't answer his question.  Has it ALWAYS been big?  It is certainly big -- now.  I don't think it was big until Duke started threatening the cheaters' big dawg status.

StateFan03 wrote: This thread makes us look like the little brother that can't play with the big boys. just shut it down.

There are over 300 Division I teams in NCAA basketball.  There are only 3 other programs that can say they are not "little brother" to UNC and Duke and they would be Kentucky, Kansas, and UCLA.  And UCLA the last 30 years (while successful on a national level) is not on the other fours level but will always get grouped for the 10 in 12.  So there are over 300 "little brothers" out there, not just the "chip on the shoulder" NCSU fans.

Coach K went to the National Championship game 7 times in is first 20 seasons, winning 3.  Keep in mind his first 2-3 seasons were rebuilding.  Think about that for a minute, especially considering the 65 team format.  You're playing at least 3 good teams to get there.  Lot of other coaches/programs are going to be "little brother."

All I know is that scene of K and Roy having a sausage biscuit with the refs at halftime was astonishing.

When I watch Duke play UNC I see two teams that play all out on pretty much every play. Over the last 20 years typically when I've seen State play either of those teams, I see us play all out for about 10mins and then they run away with the game.

That's why their game is hyped bc they play at an intensity level that rivals a National Championship game. Gott seems to be turning the tide though. Hopefully he keeps it up.

Grew up watching ACC basketball, went to two dixie classics as a kid couple acc tour
Big 4 teams were the thing State was king everyone else trying to knock us off, in carolina had
there year in 57 in the 60's Duke and Wake took their shot, in Coach Case last years the
program declined the Coach Sloan built it back up thru the 70's the Jimmy V miracle run
thru the 80's up until early90's we were 2nd to none then the book, firing of jimmy it has
taken us over 20 year to try and build back up. Duke and Carolina now are top espn jumps
on the bandwagen hypes it , rides it, pimps it out for all its worth.
In north carolina for  most people the rivalry is state-carolina, out of the state with espn
hype its like its the only game ever played.  The local sport talk shows are people from out
of state so they go with status quo.

tabramos wrote: I grew up in North Carolina during the 1980's and remember old ACC basketball fondly. In 1986, ESPN covered Triangle hoops and the rivalry among all three schools. People like Michael Jordan won all of his games against Duke except for one (have to look this one up but it is close). I do not recall the immense hype over Duke-North Carolina during the 1980s. I do remember it starting to build up with ESPN's hype beginning in 1990 big time. However, they make it seem like it has always been huge. What I recall is that UNC usually won and still holds a significant historical edge.

So, old timers, what is the real scoop on this rivalry historically and vis a vis NC State in the picture? To me, the media has overstated the rivalry between UNC-Duke in historical terms while downplaying NC State's significance as a rival and its role in Tobacco Road hoops history. NC State is made out to be some afterthought.

I grew up in North Carolina (Greensboro) a generation ahead of you.  These rivalries have gone through long cycles.  In the 1950s, the NC State vs Carolina basketball rivalry was really built up.  Wake was a big game for State and UNC also.  In the 1960s, Duke (under Vic Bubas) became a power and NC State was not as prominent.  The Duke vs Carolina rivalry became the biggest in the 1960s because those were the two best teams (along with South Carolina at the very end of the 60s and USC was never as big a rival to any of the big four in NC).  In the 1970s State rose to national prominance again and the State vs UNC games were again the biggest- well into the 1980s.  By the 1990s, Coach K had brought Duke back to the national spotlight and the Duke vs Carolina game has been the biggest (in terms of national and media interest) since then.  This latest cycle with the Duke vs Carolina game taking the spotlight has coincided and been driven by the explosion of cable sports television marketing.  If you listen to ESPN, you would think nothing happened before they were on the air and the best thing of all time is usually something they presented very recently.

If we recruit well and win more, like consistant, 20 win seasons, and win the ACC and other things ....after about 5-10 yrs we could get there. Its ain't happening over night or in a season or two. It appears that we may have at least opened the door to the conversation.

Yes...I am aware of that and of course both programs really went into the stratosphere while NC State went into the toliet bowl and there is no doubt today UNC-Duke is a great rivalry. However, ESPN did not know that in 1990 that would be the case. They purposefully started promoting the rivalry back in 1990 when Duke had zero national titles and UNC-Duke prior to that was not hyped up.

Gopack80 wrote: Both schools combined have won 7 national titles since '91. Guess that has a little bit to do with it.

It's always been a rivalry game, but ESPN and the ACC made it what it is today.
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--- TruthBKnownReturns wrote:

Gopack80 wrote: Both schools combined have won 7 national titles since '91. Guess that has a little bit to do with it.

But that doesn't answer his question.  Has it ALWAYS been big?  It is certainly big -- now.  I don't think it was big until Duke started threatening the cheaters' big dawg status.

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kpm wrote:

rswilli2 wrote:

jorwolf wrote: A lot of powerful and influential people wanted it this way, and basically made it happen.  

How did they make Duke and UNC into national powers?

 It was done by the same secret cabal that made NCSU hire bad  coaches.

I'd say the secret cabal made us KEEP the bad coaches far too long, and that was worse than hiring them.