Redbug22 wrote: I read an article about Grant Hill where he went on record saying he couldn't shoot a left handed layup in college....that he relied on raw talent. When basketball becomes your job you're able to refine your game.

This. Brown and CJL are more likely to improve on their weaknesses if they have an NBA coaching/training staff helping them out and unlimited practice time.

Leslie has a whole lot he needs to work on. Brown may be about ready, despite the projection.

If we go to an Elite 8 or Final 4 based on how well Leslie plays, he should move up to a lottery-level pick and head for the NBA.  Otherwise, I think he needs to come back.

Never helped Wilt to shoot free throws! How hard is that?  LOL  Oh yeah, he was too busy doing other things. How many women?????  OMG.  A lot of pretty darn good players (underclassmen) out there, that can say the same thing. Still a lot of speculation out there, and foreign players to be considered.

Leslie will find a niche when he learns to concentrate on rebounding and defense first, and realize scoring is secondary for him when he gets to the NBA.  He will be a 1st round pick on this potential alone.

Brown will be borderline lottery.  He could score 18 a game for us right now if we didn't have so many options and he was more willing to force the issue.

Leslie will not do much at the next level unless he develops a jump shot...but, if he does, he could be really good.

The NBA has zero to do with being ready. It's a real simple decision, if you're a guaranteed 1st round draft pick you leave. Notice I did not say lottery. If you're projected in the late 20s then you need to do a lot of research before you go.

1st round in NBA= 3 year guaranteed money. No one ever advises these baseball players to stay when they get drafted top 5 rounds for much less money.

SpudLo wrote: Leslie will find a niche when he learns to concentrate on rebounding and defense first, and realize scoring is secondary for him when he gets to the NBA.  He will be a 1st round pick on this potential alone.

Brown will be borderline lottery.  He could score 18 a game for us right now if we didn't have so many options and he was more willing to force the issue.

I've always thought that Leslie could be an excellent defensive player if he applied himself and could go a lot higher as a stopper; he will be quicker and jump higher than about guy his size he'd face. 

FWIW - I'm sticking with my original guess that CJ leaves early but Brown returns.  I just feel w/CJ that what you see is what you get by now but Lo will improve more w/another year.

WolverinePack20 wrote: Lo is going to be a lottery pick by the time it is all said and done. Leslie will be a late 1st rounder.

I think both players can be really good eventually in the NBA, but if I'm GM I'm wondering how they would respond to an 82 game season when it seems the focusing their intensity in the much shorter college season has been a problem this year... especially for CJ.

CBreez wrote: As far as jumpers go, I've seen many a player develop a strong outside shot after being a pro; even after not having one in college.  Zo n CJ may not have great ones now, but whenever they enter the league, they'll get one.  I don't think current shooting ability will strongly affect their draft status.  CJ's speed/athleticism n Zo's size will draw interest from multiple teams.

True, but if you are coming into the league UNDERsized for your position, you've got to be able to stretch the floor, or else how will you get court time?  What position do you see CJL playing in the NBA?  I don't think he has much of a speed advantage over NBA SF's, not sure he will do much in the post against bigger stronger defenders.

Leslie's situation is not much different than Hodge's was.
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--- PacknABC wrote:

rswilli2 wrote: Leslie has a lot of work to do before he can even think about dominating on the NBA level. Strength, footwork, core strength and balance, jump shooting. He is still extremely raw in many ways. Brown would be far more ready to step in and produce right away in the pros.

The story on Calvin is he's not strong enough to play much 2 at the next level and until he gets an outside shot, he will struggle at the 3. So until one or both changes, he may be destined to be a better college player than pro. FWIW....

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Leslie does not have the jumper or basketball IQ to be an NBA player just yet, maybe someday , but not yet. I think Lo Brown has a much better shot to be a NBA rotation player next season. Brown gets more consistent on his pull up jumper and plays just a little smarter and he could be a starter in two years. I dont know if Leslie will ever be more than an energy guy off the bench. His game is not progressing like it needs to and he still makes silly fouls and misses free throws under pressure. Lot of work to do, if I'm an NBA GM, I would draft Richard Howell over CJ Leslie right now.

Really hate it for CJL, maybe more so for his mother. We were all ecstatic when he recommitted, and then again last year when he decided to return, but unfortunately, I don't think he paid his dues in the gym and in the weight room in the off-season. I think he bought into the hype. Unfortunately, I think he thinks he is better than he really is. I mean, how many games has he dominated this year, and even against weaker competition. He drives me nuts when he decides to dribble coast to coast, only to travel, or miss the shot. While he has had a few nice finishes, I don't think he has lived up to anybody's expectations. I don't think anyone would consider him a POY candidate in the ACC, and definitely not an college AA. Hate to see a kid that came to NCSU fall short, sad thing is, I'm not sure how I feel about the prospects, if he returns. Would we be better for it, or would it be a repeat (unrealized potential) of this year? How would it affect team chemistry?

Hopefully there is time for this team to shine, although I think many are losing the faith.

Hopefully Calvin will return for the ACC and NCAA tourney, it is his best opportunity to raise his draft prospects.

When I see the draft projections - I'm not 100% convinced we'll lose both.  Neither are in the area of the draft where it's a no-brainer to go pro.

  So...how high is Harrow going to be drafted?  Right after TDT?? 

Zo will be the better Pro. Leslie has to learn to bring it each night but what do I know.

ZO is gonna be an absolute baller in the NBA.  All star potential.

Zo has very good size and athleticism for an NBA PG while Leslie is a player without a position for the NBA.  Leslie does not handle the ball well enough or shoot well enough to be an NBA 3 and is too small and frail to be an NBA 4. Love his athleticism but right now he is a player with no true NBA position. His best bet would seem to be a high energy guy coming off the bench against other backups while he hones his shooting and ball handling skills.

They're both first round picks this year and they're both gone. No question.

TexasWolfpack wrote: When I see the draft projections - I'm not 100% convinced we'll lose both.  Neither are in the area of the draft where it's a no-brainer to go pro.

Its a no brainer when you are a 5th year senior and 4th year senior who will be competing against a loaded '13 class in the draft.  Neither are going lotto no matter what they do.

Unfortunatley, the problem with CJ is his attitude. I can't believe more people aren't talking about it and how it affects his draft status. I've seen him yell and/or jerk away from the coaches at least twice on the bench. He pouts at times and whines to the referees when he should be running down the court to play defense. He seems to be quite selfish at times. If he would play 100% at all times, he would be amazing.

It began when some bozo put him in David Thompson's jersey # on the cover of the Basketball preview, or whatever it was. These kids get too much BS hype these days and grown men fall all over them. It's disgusting.

In the old days a coach would put his butt on the bench as soon as he yelled/pouted/lacked effort. Coaches can hardly do that these days because it is such a big $$$ business and they get too much heat and/or pressure to win.

He could be a good pro if he could take the heart of a walkon who would love to have his ability and playing time.

Both of them have not been stellar this season, truth be told. True Brown has increased his stock, but I would say he needs more experience to reduce some of the boneheaded plays. He makes our offense go really fast, but the mature PG will pull back more often than he does. He makes most of his mistakes getting trapped picking up his dribble in the lane. From a purely selfish standpoint, I dont want either of them going pro after this season.

RabidWolf1987 wrote: Both of them have not been stellar this season, truth be told. True Brown has increased his stock, but I would say he needs more experience to reduce some of the boneheaded plays. He makes our offense go really fast, but the mature PG will pull back more often than he does. He makes most of his mistakes getting trapped picking up his dribble in the lane. From a purely selfish standpoint, I dont want either of them going pro after this season.

Freshmen that are far less polished than ZO get picked high every year.  ZO is not going to correct every little weakness in one year.  He can do that when its his job and he is making money doing it.

I would love to see brown purvis/turrner warren RANDEL Leslie . but think they are both gone. brown should be a senior. this ankle injury will show him it could all come to an end at any given moment. so go

Some of ya'll have Les pegged big time. I mean dead on straight.

Second rounders do not recieve guaranteed contracts, correct?

packmanncsu wrote: Second rounders do not recieve guaranteed contracts, correct?

Correct. They can be let go w/o ever getting a contract. The good thing for 2nd round to undrafted guys is the NBA seems to be developing a legitimate "minor league" with the NBDL.

Showtime2k2 wrote:

CBreez wrote: As far as jumpers go, I've seen many a player develop a strong outside shot after being a pro; even after not having one in college.  Zo n CJ may not have great ones now, but whenever they enter the league, they'll get one.  I don't think current shooting ability will strongly affect their draft status.  CJ's speed/athleticism n Zo's size will draw interest from multiple teams.

True, but if you are coming into the league UNDERsized for your position, you've got to be able to stretch the floor, or else how will you get court time?  What position do you see CJL playing in the NBA?  I don't think he has much of a speed advantage over NBA SF's, not sure he will do much in the post against bigger stronger defenders.

CJ will be a 4 in the league; with a jumper, potentially, he'll be able to bring guys to the outside.  He can put on weight and still have quickness to post and go around guys.  He's like a quicker, more athletic Elden Campbell; though a couple inches shorter.  I think he'll be more apt to listen to pro guys and flourish by being around veterans.  He may not be a great 4, unless he bulks up, but I don't think he'll ever be a SF.  As long as he's getting a pay check, he'll probably do what it takes to stick around.  He could get real good, tho, and that's why GMs will take a chance on him.

I can't fathom being an NBA owner/GM and paying real money to anyone who gives a 50 percent effort 50 or more percent of the time ... why pay a guy who will be scheduled to play 82 games, and he shows up for just 41 of them ... and in the 41 he shows up for, he's giving you 100 percent effort about 24 of the 48 minutes ...

Whoever said it drives him nuts watching CJL dribble coast to coast only to travel or turn the ball over is off a bit. He does an equally fine job doing the same by starting a the top of the key.

I think Leslie and Brown are both ready to check-out and head to the pros. This was the year to come back and accomplish a few things they felt they had left to accomplish, I just can't see them thinking that if they come back they can 100% take the ACC. I could see Lorenzo mentally taking up the challenge for making an ACC Championship run, but I think Leslie wants to jump to the NBA ASAP. Plus I think Lo getting dinged up this year is going to push him out the door earlier and not risk a more serious injury next year.

Plus part of value of going early is being able to sell the "potential" angle. Hard to sell "potential" as a senior, it'll actually be harder for Leslie to use that word this year compared to last year.

LetsGoState wrote:

packmanncsu wrote: Second rounders do not recieve guaranteed contracts, correct?

Correct. They can be let go w/o ever getting a contract. The good thing for 2nd round to undrafted guys is the NBA seems to be developing a legitimate "minor league" with the NBDL.

They're both at the cusp of 1st/2nd round - still a lot of time for them to move up/down before the draft.  I was using the guaranteed money as the clear barometer for a go/no go decision.

Leslie and Brown IMO will blow the combine testing out of the water.  Therefore, you will see their stocks skyrocket as that process moves on.  Zo recieved a first round grade last year it was just after the time for underclassmen to declare.

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--- wolfbreath wrote:

Gut instinct tells me Brown is coming back. Not sure about CJL

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If I'm being honest, I'd much rather have Brown back than Leslie.

Leslie is a really good college player when he chooses to be, but he takes too many games off.

He doesn't have the game to really play in the NBA right now, and until he gets a jumper, he won't.
NBA is full of forwards who are bigger, just as quick and can jump as well, and better shooters.

He might well get drafted for his potential. I wish him luck if so.

Hope Brown comes back.

Leslie should be a lottery pick if the scouts are looking for a player who can give them countless turnovers along with an inability to shoot free throws and a knack for not finishing around the rim.

I think first rounders get 2 years guarenteed, not 3. The 24-30 range (where I predict Leslie to go) starts at a mil the first two years at 24th and the 30th pick gets 870k average the first two years. Factor in an agent and taxes, and you've got between 400-450k after, depending upon where he's drafted. That will last precisely 3 weeks. I know one thing, if he makes it past year two in the NBA, his work ethic and attitude will improve drastically. He's has visible issues with a 37 game schedule against inferior talent. An 82 game schedule where he doesn't have a natural position against the world's greatest is scary.

Zo wil be fine. I don't say that meaning he will have a great NBA career, I say that knowing he will reach his full potential and work hard, whatever that gets him. If he's good enough, and I think he is, he can hang onto an NBA roster spot for 5 seasons and make real bank.

I wish them both the best in whatever they do.  Summary:  Zo has improved in just about every area every year.  CJ is still CJ.  I think he has grown as a person off the court which will help...but, on the court...well, I am glad he is at NCSU...but there is no need rehashing what has already been said.  I hope he starts to pick up on somethings and blows the combine out of the water.

Where were all of these Leslie bashers when he was putting 25 up on Duke?   Look the guy is just pressing a little bit.  I think he is playing extremely hard he is just pressing.  I am very happy to see his rebounding totals seem to be going up as the season progresses.

jds0881 wrote: Where were all of these Leslie bashers when he was putting 25 up on Duke?   Look the guy is just pressing a little bit.  I think he is playing extremely hard he is just pressing.  I am very happy to see his rebounding totals seem to be going up as the season progresses.

His ability is not the question nor has it ever been.  His mental focus to bring it more than 5-6games a year when he is the most athletic player on the floor every game is.

jds0881 wrote: Where were all of these Leslie bashers when he was putting 25 up on Duke?   Look the guy is just pressing a little bit.  I think he is playing extremely hard he is just pressing.  I am very happy to see his rebounding totals seem to be going up as the season progresses.

We were happy about that, just as we were unhappy when he put up 13 against Wake and Maryland.  And 6 against Clemson the first time.   Seriously, how do you have his talent and play 35 minutes against Clemson and end up with 3 rebounds and 6 points?   

He has to learn to show up against everyone, not just the big TV games.

Pacfanweb wrote:

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--- wolfbreath wrote:

Gut instinct tells me Brown is coming back. Not sure about CJL

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If I'm being honest, I'd much rather have Brown back than Leslie.

Leslie is a really good college player when he chooses to be, but he takes too many games off.

He doesn't have the game to really play in the NBA right now, and until he gets a jumper, he won't.
NBA is full of forwards who are bigger, just as quick and can jump as well, and better shooters.

He might well get drafted for his potential. I wish him luck if so.

Hope Brown comes back.

Your gut is telling you wrong.  Brown is gone as is Leslie.