wrcwolf wrote: External review found here. I would think any athletic department that has appeared in front of the enforcement staff in the last five years will want to have a discussion with the NCAA.

www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/p...to+improvements

Maybe, but my sense is people are over-reacting to the implications of this fact pattern. If the NCAA relied on certain facts in determining violations occurred, those would be expressly listed. Schools should be able to fairly easily determine if the NCAA engaged in any improper fact finding. This appears to be a fairly narrow circumstance based on potential conflicts of interest and an attorney serving two masters (which could actually be okay under the right set of facts as well).

There is a lot of anti-NCAA sentiment out there for a variety of reasons (and many of them good ones - others not so much). This looks like to me an opening many are using just to pile on and attack, either because they don't understand the law, policies, and facts or they don't care.

I'm as frustrated with the NCAA as anyone on this board, but this looks more like Salem than Watergate to me.

---------------------------------------------
--- Pack2L wrote:

wrcwolf wrote: External review found here. I would think any athletic department that has appeared in front of the enforcement staff in the last five years will want to have a discussion with the NCAA.

www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/p...to+improvements

Maybe, but my sense is people are over-reacting to the implications of this fact pattern. If the NCAA relied on certain facts in determining violations occurred, those would be expressly listed. Schools should be able to fairly easily determine if the NCAA engaged in any improper fact finding. This appears to be a fairly narrow circumstance based on potential conflicts of interest and an attorney serving two masters (which could actually be okay under the right set of facts as well).

There is a lot of anti-NCAA sentiment out there for a variety of reasons (and many of them good ones - others not so much). This looks like to me an opening many are using just to pile on and attack, either because they don't understand the law, policies, and facts or they don't care.

I'm as frustrated with the NCAA as anyone on this board, but this looks more like Salem than Watergate to me.

---------------------------------------------


@CharlesRobinson: Boiling down report, firm found while NCAA enforcement didn't violate any specific legal law or bylaw, it was against NCAA internal policy.

@CharlesRobinson: Miami investigation will now go forward. All of the deposition information gained, or info derived from it, has been thrown out.

@schadjoe: Investigator said about 20 percent of information assertions against Miami were taken out as a result of the investigation

---------------------------------------------
--- Pack2L wrote:

wrcwolf wrote: External review found here. I would think any athletic department that has appeared in front of the enforcement staff in the last five years will want to have a discussion with the NCAA.

www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/p...to+improvements

Maybe, but my sense is people are over-reacting to the implications of this fact pattern. If the NCAA relied on certain facts in determining violations occurred, those would be expressly listed. Schools should be able to fairly easily determine if the NCAA engaged in any improper fact finding. This appears to be a fairly narrow circumstance based on potential conflicts of interest and an attorney serving two masters (which could actually be okay under the right set of facts as well).

There is a lot of anti-NCAA sentiment out there for a variety of reasons (and many of them good ones - others not so much). This looks like to me an opening many are using just to pile on and attack, either because they don't understand the law, policies, and facts or they don't care.

I'm as frustrated with the NCAA as anyone on this board, but this looks more like Salem than Watergate to me.

---------------------------------------------

You think these tactics just began with the Miami case? May want to pay attention to the Todd McNair, USC coach, vs NCAA case in the coming months. My guess is that the public will be able to view some more shady tactics used by the NCAA soon. After that, the Penn State case should be rolling along. Good times.

At least one media member already disagrees with your view that this doesn't look like Watergate. Dodd wants Emmert to step down.

www.cbssports.com/collegefootb...ay-with-his-job

The NCAA is guilty of failure to monitor and lack of institutional control. Guilty of its own rules which it applies arbitrarily and -- at times -- unfairly.

Take a dip in the deep end of that pool of irony.

Bylaw is 11.1.2.1 states that in such case a coach must “promote an atmosphere for compliance within the program … and to monitor the activities regarding compliance of assistant coaches and other administrators.”

For this this case – marking one of the most embarrassing days in NCAA history – president Mark Emmert is the coach. And he must step down. Even if you believe the scandal stopped at former enforcement director Julie Roe Lach – which it doesn't -- Emmert was her boss. And from Enron to Watergate to Camelot, bosses have fallen on swords.

If Mark Emmert didn't know that company funds were being misappropriated in the Miami investigation, he should have known. That's what good bosses/coaches do.

The NCAA is his team. Scores of real coaches' careers have been eternally damaged for a lot less evidence that what the NCAA uncovered itself.

Anyone following Jay Bilas on Twitter regarding the NCAA and Miami?  Anyone think those comments could and should equally apply to UNC and the academic fraud scandal?

Jay Bilas ‏ @ JayBilas

No reasonable person could possibly believe Roe Lach operated without approval from superiors at NCAA. This has a "Watergate" feel.

Jay Bilas ‏ @ JayBilas

NCAA says "select" personnel in the wrong. So much for accountability. Start the bus, so Emmert can "select" those he'll throw under it!

Jay Bilas ‏ @ JayBilas

NCAA fires VP of Enforcement BEFORE release of external investigation: http://cbsprt.co/XY0plM  Those above her didn't know?! Please.

Miami needs to hire UNC's legal team.

AlignedFor9 wrote: Anyone following Jay Bilas on Twitter regarding the NCAA and Miami?  Anyone think those comments could and should equally apply to UNC and the academic fraud scandal?

Jay Bilas ‏ @ JayBilas

No reasonable person could possibly believe Roe Lach operated without approval from superiors at NCAA. This has a "Watergate" feel.

Jay Bilas ‏ @ JayBilas

NCAA says "select" personnel in the wrong. So much for accountability. Start the bus, so Emmert can "select" those he'll throw under it!

Jay Bilas ‏ @ JayBilas

NCAA fires VP of Enforcement BEFORE release of external investigation: http://cbsprt.co/XY0plM  Those above her didn't know?! Please.

Bilas is an idiot in smart person's clothing. He's one of the first I expected to start the "she's a witch" chant.

wrcwolf wrote:
---------------------------------------------
--- Pack2L wrote:

wrcwolf wrote: External review found here. I would think any athletic department that has appeared in front of the enforcement staff in the last five years will want to have a discussion with the NCAA.

www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/p...to+improvements

Maybe, but my sense is people are over-reacting to the implications of this fact pattern. If the NCAA relied on certain facts in determining violations occurred, those would be expressly listed. Schools should be able to fairly easily determine if the NCAA engaged in any improper fact finding. This appears to be a fairly narrow circumstance based on potential conflicts of interest and an attorney serving two masters (which could actually be okay under the right set of facts as well).

There is a lot of anti-NCAA sentiment out there for a variety of reasons (and many of them good ones - others not so much). This looks like to me an opening many are using just to pile on and attack, either because they don't understand the law, policies, and facts or they don't care.

I'm as frustrated with the NCAA as anyone on this board, but this looks more like Salem than Watergate to me.

---------------------------------------------

You think these tactics just began with the Miami case? May want to pay attention to the Todd McNair, USC coach, vs NCAA case in the coming months. My guess is that the public will be able to view some more shady tactics used by the NCAA soon. After that, the Penn State case should be rolling along. Good times.

At least one media member already disagrees with your view that this doesn't look like Watergate. Dodd wants Emmert to step down.

www.cbssports.com/collegefootb...ay-with-his-job

The NCAA is guilty of failure to monitor and lack of institutional control. Guilty of its own rules which it applies arbitrarily and -- at times -- unfairly.

Take a dip in the deep end of that pool of irony.

Bylaw is 11.1.2.1 states that in such case a coach must “promote an atmosphere for compliance within the program … and to monitor the activities regarding compliance of assistant coaches and other administrators.”

For this this case – marking one of the most embarrassing days in NCAA history – president Mark Emmert is the coach. And he must step down. Even if you believe the scandal stopped at former enforcement director Julie Roe Lach – which it doesn't -- Emmert was her boss. And from Enron to Watergate to Camelot, bosses have fallen on swords.

If Mark Emmert didn't know that company funds were being misappropriated in the Miami investigation, he should have known. That's what good bosses/coaches do.

The NCAA is his team. Scores of real coaches' careers have been eternally damaged for a lot less evidence that what the NCAA uncovered itself.

I'm not opposed to Emmert stepping down. I don't think he has done a good job, in fact I think it's been rather poor.

That does not change my assessment based on the information I have, which is that the only improper act was NCAA officials deviating from NCAA internal policy. If other schools believe that occurred in their investigations, then they should seek redress.

If you want to make this about an aggregate of errors (this, the unc alum involved in unc investigation initially, etc), then fine - see my first sentence about Emmert stepping down. But on the issue of this specific problem with the Miami investigation, my point is that people are over-estimating the implications as they relate to past and future investigations.

I will also say I'm all for the NCAA being as creative as possible in their fact gathering methods as long as that method is (1) lawful, (2) permissible under it's own policies, and (3) not likely to result in unreliable information. I wish they'd do more of that in Chapel Hill.

as a refresher, here is a list of allegations against Miami put together by Charles Robinson
sports.yahoo.com/investigation...benefits_081611

He doesn't need to step down, he needs to be forced out.

This is all on him. First it was never reported to general cousel Remy's desk, and appeared to be work of rogue agents.
Then it is laid at Roe Lach's feet.
What, bookkeeping couldn't find a check made out to Elena Perez anywhere?,...at least not until a plausible cover story for Emmert could be laid out.

below is my post from weeks ago, and part of article Dodd wrote then.

Emmert is the very kind of scummy criminal he doles out harsh punishments to every week, except his good buddies at unc-ch*, OSU, and the like.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````


concerning the hiring of Nevin Shapiro's attorney Maria Elena Perez to gather info for NCAA on U of Miami,.....


"It immediately raised a question, where the heck did this come from," Emmert said.

I asked who would have signed off on such a move. Emmert said the office of general counsel Donald Remy. But, Emmert added, the issue never reached Remy's desk.

That suggests that for a period of months an investigator at the NCAA was allowed to go cowboy and hire Elena Perez without oversight. Wouldn't we all love that expense account?

This is becoming all too coincidental. No one in charge at unc-ch* knows anything, and Emmert has no clue as to the day-to-day, or even week-to-week operations of the single biggest ongoing case at the organization.

Yeah, sure he doesn't. I know when I worked under a huge umbrella I made executive decisions all the time without consent or knowledge of my superiors. Doesn't everyone????

AlignedFor9 wrote: Anyone following Jay Bilas on Twitter regarding the NCAA and Miami?  Anyone think those comments could and should equally apply to UNC and the academic fraud scandal?

Jay Bilas ‏ @ JayBilas

No reasonable person could possibly believe Roe Lach operated without approval from superiors at NCAA. This has a "Watergate" feel.

Jay Bilas ‏ @ JayBilas

NCAA says "select" personnel in the wrong. So much for accountability. Start the bus, so Emmert can "select" those he'll throw under it!

Jay Bilas ‏ @ JayBilas

NCAA fires VP of Enforcement BEFORE release of external investigation: http://cbsprt.co/XY0plM  Those above her didn't know?! Please.

Here is a link to a picture of the Bilas Tweets

dpanther wrote:

-


@CharlesRobinson: Boiling down report, firm found while NCAA enforcement didn't violate any specific legal law or bylaw, it was against NCAA internal policy.

@CharlesRobinson: Miami investigation will now go forward. All of the deposition information gained, or info derived from it, has been thrown out.

@schadjoe: Investigator said about 20 percent of information assertions against Miami were taken out as a result of the investigation

This will be interesting, unless the NCAA has some PSU like dirt on the Canes, I can't see them just taking anything harsh from the NCAA - especially since they already sat out the past 2 bowl seasons.

NCAA fires VP of enforcement after debacle of Miami probe
sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--n...-171556026.html

Miami claims it has been wronged and demands that NCAA wrap up investigation
deadspin.com/5985180/?utm_camp...dium=socialflow

Reports that the NCAA's Notice of Allegations against Miami could be released today.

---------------------------------------------
--- flair1 wrote:

Miami claims it has been wronged and demands that NCAA wrap up investigation
deadspin.com/5985180/?utm_camp...dium=socialflow

---------------------------------------------

Anything worse than Unc's punishment and they will definitely fight, as they should. Could get interesting.

roachclip76 wrote:

---------------------------------------------
--- flair1 wrote:

Miami claims it has been wronged and demands that NCAA wrap up investigation
deadspin.com/5985180/?utm_camp...dium=socialflow

---------------------------------------------

Anything worse than Unc's punishment and they will definitely fight, as they should. Could get interesting.

What would really be interesting is if they give bball a 1 year postseason ban.

flair1 wrote: Miami claims it has been wronged and demands that NCAA wrap up investigation
deadspin.com/5985180/?utm_camp...dium=socialflow

yeah based on this, I doubt Miami will stand for anything harsh from the NCAA:

Miami president Donna Shalala says enough's enough.

A statement, released this evening, reads in part:

"We believe strongly in the principles and values of fairness and due process. However, we have been wronged in this investigation, and we believe that this process must come to a swift resolution, which includes no additional punitive measures beyond those already self-imposed.

Miami has received its Notice of Allegations.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/02/19/3243017/ap-m iami-hurricanes-receive-notice.html

Several people need to be fired at the NCAA for how they handled and not handling the UNC investigation.  How can you go after some schools and let the Heels get away with the biggest academic scandal to hit college sports.  They have made a bigger joke of the NCAA than they have themselves. 

It almost as if the NCAA is afraid of UNC.  With all of the former UNC supporters in the NCAA, UNC either has dirt on them or they are just incompetent.

PackBacker1 wrote: Several people need to be fired at the NCAA for how they handled and not handling the UNC investigation.  How can you go after some schools and let the Heels get away with the biggest academic scandal to hit college sports.  They have made a bigger joke of the NCAA than they have themselves. 

It almost as if the NCAA is afraid of UNC.  With all of the former UNC supporters in the NCAA, UNC either has dirt on them or they are just incompetent.

Changing people at the NCAA is about the same as changing people at UNC. Where a culture of corruption or favoritism exists as deeply as it does at those places, all new hires are vetted to carry on the tradition.