Seems like all agree that CK wasn't the same QB the last 4 games of the season. The hits pile up and the OSU injury made much less effective. So I'm wondering if it's time to scrap that run-first QB philosophy? It would be nice to have our offense peak at the end of the season and be ready to perform in the bowl game instead of looking like a shell of what it was in October.

I hear what you're saying, but I think you need to play to the strengths of your personnel.

If Sams starts next year, he may need a little time to develop as a passer (in terms of knowing where to go with the ball because he looked like he's got a pretty live arm with fair accuracy in his limited attempts this year).

If Waters starts next year, his scouting report reflected fair speed and athleticism, but his numbers showed that he ran more of a pass-first offense.

I think both guys can run the ball, but it needs to be determined by their strengths and their ability to overcome the physical demands of toting the rock.

The only way to truly keep a defense off balance is to be able to do both.  If you want to improve on the concept you need a quarterback that makes tacklers miss instead of running over them.

I agree that it will all depend on who the starting QB is next year.  Sams and Waters bring different skill sets to the table, but let's face it both of those skill sets are also different from CK's.  Therefore, I don't think there will be as many quarterback-designed runs. Make no mistake the zone-read will still be a part of the offense, but I think you'll see Hubert's carries go up significantly.  

If it is Sams I think you'll see him in the pistol set quite a bit.  That kid is a thoroughbred not a clydesdale, so I don't see us running a lot of power lead plays with him between the guard and tackle(like we did with CK).  Remember all of the plays during which the announcers marveled at CK's patience and timing?  Yeah, you don't want to do that with Sams.  Having him bottled up in the backfield and sifting his way through traffic obviously negates his physical talents.  

With Sams I would also put him on a "One Read and Go" plan.  The other thing that CK brought to the table was his decision-making(something he rarely got much credit for from the fans).  As the year goes on, you could obviously give him greater freedoms and responsibilities, but in the beginning I would tell him that if his first look isn't there, tuck the ball and go like hell.   

If it is Waters, then everything changes completely.  I think you could see a fair amount of "traditional" offensive sets with him under center.  The zone read (option) and the more traditional lead option and speed option(not sure if it is still in our play book) will probably be used in more complimentary style.  The base package, however, would probably be Waters in the shotgun with four wide receivers.  This is also why I don't think Waters will be the starter.  I know it will be an open competition in spring practice, and he could certainly out perform Sams.  I just don't think we have the skill at the wide receiver position to take full advantage of what Waters brings to the table.

The thing is, people forget that Coach Snyder molds his offense to his QB. We were QB run first with Klein because that is what he did best. With Coffman, we were in the I with DT behind him and threw it more in more of a pro-style look a good bit of the time. Yea, Coffman ran it some, but not much, and we often put DT in the wildcat when we wanted to run Zone Read. We ran a handful of QB runs with Coffman to keep people honest, but not close to what we did with Klein. If Waters wins the job, I would expect to see an offense more like what we ran with Coffman in 2010, or even Gregory in 2009. With Sams, who I personally think will win the job, we will look more like we have with Klein, except that I think our blocking schemes will change. We did a lot of pulling with Klein so that he could patiently wait for his hole and then go. With Sams, he is not going to be patient waiting for a hole, he wants to see a crease and hit it at 100 mph. I could see us doing less zone blocking and pulling and more double-teaming at the point of attack , trying to get a quick hole open so that he can explode. Remember, Same is an elite level athlete. He was recruited by the blue bloods of the SEC as an athlete. He may be the most explosive athlete we have ever played at QB (at least close with Bishop). The coaches will mold the offense to the strengths of the guy who is on the field.

I hope Sams puts on some strength and bulk because he still looks a bit slight out there. What is his real height and weight? Is he bigger than El was?
---------------------------------------------
--- WildWillieCat wrote:

I agree that it will all depend on who the starting QB is next year.  Sams and Waters bring different skill sets to the table, but let's face it both of those skill sets are also different from CK's.  Therefore, I don't think there will be as many quarterback-designed runs. Make no mistake the zone-read will still be a part of the offense, but I think you'll see Hubert's carries go up significantly.  

If it is Sams I think you'll see him in the pistol set quite a bit.  That kid is a thoroughbred not a clydesdale, so I don't see us running a lot of power lead plays with him between the guard and tackle(like we did with CK).  Remember all of the plays during which the announcers marveled at CK's patience and timing?  Yeah, you don't want to do that with Sams.  Having him bottled up in the backfield and sifting his way through traffic obviously negates his physical talents.  

With Sams I would also put him on a "One Read and Go" plan.  The other thing that CK brought to the table was his decision-making(something he rarely got much credit for from the fans).  As the year goes on, you could obviously give him greater freedoms and responsibilities, but in the beginning I would tell him that if his first look isn't there, tuck the ball and go like hell.   

If it is Waters, then everything changes completely.  I think you could see a fair amount of "traditional" offensive sets with him under center.  The zone read (option) and the more traditional lead option and speed option(not sure if it is still in our play book) will probably be used in more complimentary style.  The base package, however, would probably be Waters in the shotgun with four wide receivers.  This is also why I don't think Waters will be the starter.  I know it will be an open competition in spring practice, and he could certainly out perform Sams.  I just don't think we have the skill at the wide receiver position to take full advantage of what Waters brings to the table.

---------------------------------------------

GorHoops wrote: The thing is, people forget that Coach Snyder molds his offense to his QB. We were QB run first with Klein because that is what he did best. With Coffman, we were in the I with DT behind him and threw it more in more of a pro-style look a good bit of the time. Yea, Coffman ran it some, but not much, and we often put DT in the wildcat when we wanted to run Zone Read. We ran a handful of QB runs with Coffman to keep people honest, but not close to what we did with Klein. If Waters wins the job, I would expect to see an offense more like what we ran with Coffman in 2010, or even Gregory in 2009. With Sams, who I personally think will win the job, we will look more like we have with Klein, except that I think our blocking schemes will change. We did a lot of pulling with Klein so that he could patiently wait for his hole and then go. With Sams, he is not going to be patient waiting for a hole, he wants to see a crease and hit it at 100 mph. I could see us doing less zone blocking and pulling and more double-teaming at the point of attack , trying to get a quick hole open so that he can explode. Remember, Same is an elite level athlete. He was recruited by the blue bloods of the SEC as an athlete. He may be the most explosive athlete we have ever played at QB (at least close with Bishop). The coaches will mold the offense to the strengths of the guy who is on the field.

yep 

sclem wrote: Seems like all agree that CK wasn't the same QB the last 4 games of the season. The hits pile up and the OSU injury made much less effective. So I'm wondering if it's time to scrap that run-first QB philosophy? It would be nice to have our offense peak at the end of the season and be ready to perform in the bowl game instead of looking like a shell of what it was in October.

I've been thinking the very same thing.

learnin wrote:

sclem wrote: Seems like all agree that CK wasn't the same QB the last 4 games of the season. The hits pile up and the OSU injury made much less effective. So I'm wondering if it's time to scrap that run-first QB philosophy? It would be nice to have our offense peak at the end of the season and be ready to perform in the bowl game instead of looking like a shell of what it was in October.

I've been thinking the very same thing.

this isn't basketball, you can't lose a few in the regular season and then "get hot when it matters"

they all matter, or Baylor would probably be playing somebody this week...

This goes back to recruiting. We have a better chance of recruiting a QB athlete that can be molded to Snyder's philosophy than finding a top notch pass first QB like Chad May. I'll never forget when Roberson was struggling and Dunn was named the starter to begin 2002...sounded great til we reached USC and a superior athletic team (Polamalu, Palmer, and Williams to name a few). Dunn was pulled, and Roberson (who needed the previous year to grasp Snyder's offense and expectations) was the difference maker due to his passing and running ability.

If Snyder scraps the Run-first QB...we'll be peaking similar to UK in November with a 1-8 record, so a bowl what even be a consideration. I think I'll go with what has predominately worked for Snyder over the last 14 years (beginning with Bishop). D. Sams will be our starter next year...

---------------------------------------------
--- learnin wrote:

sclem wrote: Seems like all agree that CK wasn't the same QB the last 4 games of the season. The hits pile up and the OSU injury made much less effective. So I'm wondering if it's time to scrap that run-first QB philosophy? It would be nice to have our offense peak at the end of the season and be ready to perform in the bowl game instead of looking like a shell of what it was in October.

I've been thinking the very same thing.

---------------------------------------------

I second that...

---------------------------------------------
--- WildWillieCat wrote:

GorHoops wrote: The thing is, people forget that Coach Snyder molds his offense to his QB. We were QB run first with Klein because that is what he did best. With Coffman, we were in the I with DT behind him and threw it more in more of a pro-style look a good bit of the time. Yea, Coffman ran it some, but not much, and we often put DT in the wildcat when we wanted to run Zone Read. We ran a handful of QB runs with Coffman to keep people honest, but not close to what we did with Klein. If Waters wins the job, I would expect to see an offense more like what we ran with Coffman in 2010, or even Gregory in 2009. With Sams, who I personally think will win the job, we will look more like we have with Klein, except that I think our blocking schemes will change. We did a lot of pulling with Klein so that he could patiently wait for his hole and then go. With Sams, he is not going to be patient waiting for a hole, he wants to see a crease and hit it at 100 mph. I could see us doing less zone blocking and pulling and more double-teaming at the point of attack , trying to get a quick hole open so that he can explode. Remember, Same is an elite level athlete. He was recruited by the blue bloods of the SEC as an athlete. He may be the most explosive athlete we have ever played at QB (at least close with Bishop). The coaches will mold the offense to the strengths of the guy who is on the field.

yep 

---------------------------------------------

I've liked what I've seen of Sams and have felt he has more overall raw talent than what we've seen at the QB position for sometime. And feel he could run the offense very well. But have read and heard a few things about Waters. Those who follow and evaluate JUCO football say he is very talented, a great decision maker, can make all the throws with accuracy and very deceiving as a runner. So would feel very comfortable with him running the show also. Can't imagine them signing Waters if they didn't think he had a chance of contributing. Will be interesting to see what happens.

elkwc36 wrote: I've liked what I've seen of Sams and have felt he has more overall raw talent than what we've seen at the QB position for sometime. And feel he could run the offense very well. But have read and heard a few things about Waters. Those who follow and evaluate JUCO football say he is very talented, a great decision maker, can make all the throws with accuracy and very deceiving as a runner. So would feel very comfortable with him running the show also. Can't imagine them signing Waters if they didn't think he had a chance of contributing. Will be interesting to see what happens.

to actually have a tough decision to make regarding the starting QB position(for the right reasons)....what a luxury, and one that Bill hasn't had for ages 

Didn't Sams get dinged up in a reserve role this season? What makes you think he can survive 11 games as the starter? And by saying that it would be nice for the offense to peak at the end of the season and be ready for a bowl game I didn't mean that it would be crappy in mid-season. I just meant that it would be nice if the offense didn't get less and less effective as it did the last TWO seasons. Remember the TX game last year? CK could barely walk, much less run.

I would venture to say Klein had  options on most plays and chose to fullback it up the middle. Seemed like starting with the Ostate game teams started simply aiming at Klein's head but never got called for a penalty, kind of bizarre.

Two thoughts:

First of all, based on limited action this year and Sams' penchant for getting dinged up, I don't see him lasting a whole season as the starter unless he significantly beefs up. 

Second, yeah our offense has had an annoying tendency to become less effective toward the end of the season.  If we're going to keep running the QB we need to somehow minimize the beating he takes.  I don't know how to do that of course, but there are other teams whose QBs run and don't take nearly the beating that Klein absorbed over the last couple years.

Running the Wildcat has gotten us out of a lot of "sticky" situations -- but we just can't put our QB in those situations. He'll get hit enough with the pass rush, we don't need him out there taking more hits. I know this is how we do football, especially with Snyder, but I definitely think it bit us in the a$$ these last two years. I'm not saying completely give up the QB run game, but definitely pass first and run when there's a hole. eg. Mariota, Manziel, RGIII etc.

Sams has got to be on the field either at QB or somewhere. No way we got enough talent ot let him carry a clipboard.

I don't think CK is a good representative of a run first QB and therefore people are overreacting. Elusive quick QBs like we've had in the past and the type of guys you typically see used as run first QBs don't take horrible punishement and most of them are just fine late in the season. Look at the guy we just played against or Johnny, those guys are tiny and they are both unijured and playing their best FB. Now if you're going to use your QB as a FB that's a totally different scenario and not something you often seedone and in that situation your QB is going to get beat up.

PurplePowerhouse wrote: Two thoughts:

First of all, based on limited action this year and Sams' penchant for getting dinged up, I don't see him lasting a whole season as the starter unless he significantly beefs up. 

Second, yeah our offense has had an annoying tendency to become less effective toward the end of the season.  If we're going to keep running the QB we need to somehow minimize the beating he takes.  I don't know how to do that of course, but there are other teams whose QBs run and don't take nearly the beating that Klein absorbed over the last couple years.

See my first post,  running quarterbacks minimize hits when they are fast enough and elusive enough to run past the defense.  They maximize hits when they have to use their size and power to run through a tackler.