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Way to go CIF!

Posted: 07/17/2014 8:20 PM

Way to go CIF! 


I'm still in awe of how badly CIF can screw things up, I realize it's a big task with a lot to consider, but the following numbers just don't jive for one league in particular. Win a few playoff games and than get booted from DX to DIIII?


League average school enrollment

Northern Division (DIIII)
Golden. 2638
Camino. 2402
PAC 5. 1880
Los Padres. 1394
Tri Valley. 687

The TVL has one private, the largest public has 1018 enrollment.
Absolutely ridiculous.
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Posted: 07/17/2014 9:16 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


What planet have you been on?
This is not news.
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Posted: 07/17/2014 9:53 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Haven't really been reading a lot of threads lately. Just ticks me off, just venting.
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Posted: 07/18/2014 9:01 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Nordhoff proved the last couple of years that enrollment is just one of many factors contributing to success.
As of 2011 enrollment was 945.
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Posted: 07/18/2014 10:46 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 





---------------------------------------------
--- ega43 wrote:

Nordhoff proved the last couple of years that enrollment is just one of many factors contributing to success.
As of 2011 enrollment was 945.

---------------------------------------------

Enrollment is irrellevant to privates since they pick and choose.. Enrollment is the main factor for publics..

When Hart was killing it in the early 00's they had 3000+ kids between 07-13 it dropped down to around 2200 even less.. LBP has almost 5000 kids... Makes sense !!
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Posted: 07/18/2014 10:53 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Two of the schools in the Pac5 are under 1400

Four of the schools in the LPL are under 1500

CIF made it very clear more weight was going to be given to ability with size and location secondary.

Nordhoff should be thrilled that they earned the right to play up  ........ isn't that what we've heard from posters on this forum for the last 12 years in regards to the Pac-7 wink

From 1993 - 2003 the teams in the Pac-7 won 10 CIF Football Championships  .........

2004 - 2014 - one

And we are playing better ball than ever before  .........

Meow

Last edited 07/18/2014 6:31 PM by Beercat

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Posted: 07/18/2014 6:13 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 



Are you saying every public school with 3K to 5K enrollment is a football power?

---------------------------------------------
--- Hartfootballl wrote:




---------------------------------------------
--- ega43 wrote:

Nordhoff proved the last couple of years that enrollment is just one of many factors contributing to success.
As of 2011 enrollment was 945.

---------------------------------------------

Enrollment is irrellevant to privates since they pick and choose.. Enrollment is the main factor for publics..

When Hart was killing it in the early 00's they had 3000+ kids between 07-13 it dropped down to around 2200 even less.. LBP has almost 5000 kids... Makes sense !!

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 07/18/2014 6:51 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


If it were just Nordhoff being moved up, you all might have a weak point. But the whole league is going up. A big part of the TVL's success was Oak Park ( one of the largest schools in DX), OP had numerous winning years as numerous playoff runs, now they are moved out of TVL , which weakens the league.
If Fillmore were to have a miracle year and make the playoffs, they'll likely loose by 60+ on first round. The 2nd place TVL team will likely loose by 30+. The first place team, MIGHT win first round, lose big in the 2nd round.

No one is excited to play schools 100% to 350% bigger, particularly from leagues that traditionally have good playoff teams.
I've combed over the divisions several times, and there were several other scenarios that would have made more sense, been more equal and still be a good jump up from DX. They got thrown to the wolves, likely just because it was easy geographically.
I really don't know how Nordhoff will be this year. I saw them at one passing league game and I was pretty bummed. But Nordhoff has never been a PL type team so who knows. I didn't recognize one coach, not good. The coaching I did happen to see in a short time makes me lean toward a big drop off. Not sure they'll even beat Carp, doubtfully Bishop Diego from what I saw.
After this season BD will take a big hit and will likely go back closer to normal.
By the third year, Carp will likely be the champ, but nothing like they used to be. The TVL, might have won one more DX title next year, after that, they'd have been a perfect fit for DX again.
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Posted: 07/18/2014 7:45 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Welcome to Agoura, Simi, Calabasas and Royal football about 4 years ago when Oaks and Bonnie got added to the Marmonte and the Lake started doing its thing!
Besides the inequity, and we all recognize your point, why should the TVL be treated any differently?
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Posted: 07/18/2014 7:59 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


As I said ...........

From 1993 - 2003 the teams in the Pac-7 won 10 CIF Football Championships 

2004 - 2014 - one

We paid our dues for the last 10 years against the best in the Marmonte & Foothill ..........

I my add most of the time we played schools larger, sometimes way larger  .........

We fought hard and gave a good fight against tough odds ........

Man up there 805, can't wait for Nordhoff vs PR, should be interesting and tell us much cool

Meow

Last edited 07/18/2014 8:00 PM by Beercat

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Posted: 07/19/2014 9:26 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Like I said in other post, Nordhoff likely topped out the last couple years. There is little room for improvement. Throw in a mass coaching exodus and there's not much to tell. When you only have 160 upperclass boys and absolutely no transfer help...... Well DIII is just a little ridiculous.
On another note, all the changes this last year have given me more teams I'll watch. I've already made my season itinerary up. 4 OC games, 3 Nordhoff, 2 games to watch Coach Bates at Village Christian and a road trip to the OC to watch Coach Henney at TH. I won't bother going to any DIII playoffs, final should be NP vs a PAC 5 team. Not much mystery there.
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Posted: 07/19/2014 11:12 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


I'm in complete agreement here with 805.

When your average divisional opponent is THREE TIMES larger, and in the case of your one private school TEN times larger... someone is getting jobbed. 

The Pac-7's tenure against the Marmonte and Foothill was facing foes which had enrollments averaging maybe 30% larger? Not the THREE TIMES larger that the Tri-Valley is facing.

Nordoff, Carp, and Fillmore are all relatively isolated and have little capacity to reload. Nordoff's stellar coaching staff will be very hard to replace. Oak Park is gone AND in a lower division.

It's obvious that the TVL is getting screwed. Its surprising that posters on this board who have expressed displeasure over their years facing certain power teams and leagues in their previous divisions, would express any other sentiment than "you are right 805 and we feel your pain".

Last edited 07/19/2014 11:13 AM by doubleknickle

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Posted: 07/20/2014 10:25 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Oh we feel your pain ......... just why didn't you guys say the same for us when we got handed to the dogs?

Serra and Chaminade in the same division as Templeton?

"The Pac-7's tenure against the Marmonte and Foothill was facing foes which had enrollments averaging maybe 30% larger? Not the THREE TIMES larger that the Tri-Valley is facing."

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Not exactly true when you talk about the better teams in each league  ........

Valencia - 3000 kids
Palmdale - 3100 kids
Thousand Oaks - 2500 kids

Ataacadero - 1400

Come on 805 ............ I didn't here you say anything like this when OC would go pummel MBC has more enrollment than MB or Templeton and they are a football mill .......

Sure, we all enjoyed watching OC pummel MB 63 - 7 or something while the famous dads came flying in to watch the game in helicopters rolleyes

Did you guys get screwed? Probably  ........... but I like to look at it as the Pac-7 was fodder for better leagues for the last 10 years .......... time for someone else to be the fodder eek

Meow

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Posted: 07/20/2014 4:56 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


A lotta posters pointed out that the Mission was ill placed in the Western division.

A lotta posters pointed out that OC should have been moved up earlier than they were, and the TVL had them for league AND division for that decade.

Average numbers are not the extremes... The extreme would be Carpenteria vs Palmdale at 5 TIMES the size and both public! The AVERAGE LPL school is twice the size of the TVL schools. The Pac-5 is almost 3 TIMES. The Camino almost 4 TIMES. The Golden is 4 TIMES bigger.

The only "lack of sympathy" came from narrow minded bona fide homers... 805 may support Nordoff and OC (strange combo), but he has never struck me as a Homer. Many of us, including 805 have been proposing fluid associations for Northern area football to avoid many of these perennial inequities which the CIF structures cannot come to grips with.
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Posted: 07/20/2014 5:52 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Totally agree  .............

Don't get me wrong, I think the TVL should be in the Western ..........

Just pointing out for 12 years no one gave any consideration for the LPL & Pac-7 having to deal with larger schools and privates like Bonny, OC, Nade & Serra  ....

Give compassion, receive compassion ......

Meow

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Posted: 07/21/2014 4:19 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Again, while I agree that there is inequity in the current set up.
No sympathy here.  Deal with it and stop the whining.  
Not the first time this has happened nor the last.
You had a nice run, now what?
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Posted: 07/21/2014 5:19 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


I think the point is this: there are 560+ schools in the CIF, ie lots to spread around and figure it out. If CIF inveested a true effort into 'getting it right', and reconfiguring every two years really affords this, they could do so. Imagine the money, at 50% of each playoff gate ( participating schools get 25% each ), that is generated by football. Like so much of what we see in every phase of education, if they treated it like it was their livelihood, a business, they would do things differently. And it frustrates people. How many Northern area kids, if they'd gotten it right, would've gotten to play in a CIF Semi or Final in the last decade but were denied by poor area placement. How many TVL kids/families didn't even get a playoff experience over a decade because of Bonnie, Oaks dominating the league, so each year, the true third place team in a very tough league even without them, Oak Park, Nordhoff, Bishop Diego, and Carpinteria ( with schools of 1200+? also like Santa Paula and Fillmore ) had to stay home. I'm not sure people are 'crying' as much as they'd just like CIF to get it right. It's so much fun when year after year it's a fair fight.
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Posted: 07/21/2014 7:22 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


I think the attendance and enrollment figures is one of the softest arguments one can make. If that was the case, the Moore League(not just Poly) would dominate D1. The same could be said about the Big VIII. Norco dominated that league prior to Gerhart being bounced as the couch, yet they have the smallest enrollment of any school in that league/division. When was the last time you heard Roosevelt or King being good at football? But, their enrollment numbers are huge! It doesn't mean anything...kids go to a certain school for more reasons than playing ball.

If attendance and enrollment meant everything, coupled with a Private/Catholic school like Mater Dei, they would have won a D1 title every year, but have been shutout of an outright title since '98. That's 16 years! St. Paul dominated D1 with under 400 kids from the 60-90s. Amat dominated D1 throughout the early 90s with half of Loyola's total enrollment during that span.

Is Alemany the best team in the Serra League only because of their enrollment figures? Of course not. They have good coaching. They have quality players. They are in a good location to draw applicants. Did Crespi win the Big 5 title in 86 because of enrollment? No. They had stud players from the valley coupled with great coaching! Did Loyola beat LB Poly, Esperanza and others with enrollment? No! In all of Loyola's championships, they were the small school. But, they had good coaching and great 2-way players.

If enrollment meant everything Fountain Valley would be a Division Champion every year. But, they are not.they are stuck in a lower division battling a .500 record every year.

Last edited 07/21/2014 7:29 PM by 1901VeniceCub

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Posted: 07/21/2014 7:57 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Beer cat, OC was in favor of moving up earlier, however, no one wanted them back then and they stayed down until CIF forced the move on the Marmonte. At any rate, that's not a good comparison. OC was a small private school that was getting better at light speed, and the enrollment was growing.
Nordhoff is a small private school that, due to demographics, is half the size they were 30 years ago. The enrollment shows no signs of going up.
And being completely realistic, there's only been a handful of TVL teams the last 15 years that would even make the semis on this Northern set up.
The TVL should have stayed in DX, right where they belong, the public on it are mostly larger but not so drastic, and it has numerous privates that have solid teams sporadically.
I'd love to go to NP and or many of the other solid teams and remove 2/3's of their players by drawing names at random, than we'd have a fair table.
The enrollment difference is just too monstrous to justify.
Hope you feel real proud pounding on the TVL come playoffs, what a joke.
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Posted: 07/21/2014 8:37 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


I crunched some numbers. Since 2010, the TVL was 19-11in Division X playoffs.If you remove Nordhoff, they are 8-9, if you remove Oak Park, they are 5-5..
So Nordhoff goes 8-0 the last two years and CIF moves the entire league up several tiers, at the same time, they remove one of it's better teams. That leaves the two 5-5 teams asking WTF?
And while Nordhoff has had some good teams over the last twenty years, they've also had several mediocre teams by DX standards. Throw in a wholesale coaching change at Nordhoff (which I'm sure CIF was aware of) and it's pure bullshit to say the least.
It's not too far off from putting the Marmonte into a JC league. Just can't justify it.
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Posted: 07/21/2014 9:39 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Carpinteria won it's first playoff game in 10 years last season all in DX. They made the Semis in 2003, following an undefeated 2002 team that won CIF In DX. Then 9 seasons without a playoff win. Enrollment in small publics is a very real factor. They have 25-35 kids on Varsity, same on JV, and don't field Frosh teams normally. 60-80 boys, grades 9-12 in entire program. And TVL teams are very well coached. Veteran staffs in place for years. They play as well as possible, coached way up. Let's say Carp has it's UP year, with a great class of talent that comes along once a decade in a small school. Don't they deserve just a chance to advance in the playoffs? That's what's wrong with how it will play out. Nordhoff and Bishop also have very stable staffs. Remember Cliff Farrar the HC at Nordhoff since '80, along with several others had remained on staff with Henney. All three schools will all battle like the DX playoff teams that they are, and no one will back down. But reality is CIF got it wrong.
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Posted: 07/21/2014 10:08 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 



805football wrote: Beer cat, OC was in favor of moving up earlier, however, no one wanted them back then and they stayed down until CIF forced the move on the Marmonte. At any rate, that's not a good comparison. OC was a small private school that was getting better at light speed, and the enrollment was growing.
Nordhoff is a small private school that, due to demographics, is half the size they were 30 years ago. The enrollment shows no signs of going up.
And being completely realistic, there's only been a handful of TVL teams the last 15 years that would even make the semis on this Northern set up.
The TVL should have stayed in DX, right where they belong, the public on it are mostly larger but not so drastic, and it has numerous privates that have solid teams sporadically.
I'd love to go to NP and or many of the other solid teams and remove 2/3's of their players by drawing names at random, than we'd have a fair table.
The enrollment difference is just too monstrous to justify.
Hope you feel real proud pounding on the TVL come playoffs, what a joke.
Did I not say Nordhoff belongs in the Western? No, they don't belong in DX, but the Western I can see .........

But things come in waves ................... Nordhoff had it's run ......... time now to build heart. Getting your butt handed to you from time to time and knowing there is little chance to win a championship brings the cream to the top, a good thing. Heck, it made the Pac-7 get better, a good thing wink

Meow

Last edited 07/22/2014 6:30 AM by Beercat

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Posted: 07/22/2014 6:54 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


There is always someone who gets screwed during re-alignment.  Remember, CIF got sued by 4 PRIVATE schools.  They could have done a better job and moving the TVL up that far is questionable at best, but nobody else but St. Bonnie in the TVL would sue.
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Posted: 07/22/2014 10:06 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Just heard from a very reliable source, Nordhoff is done. Had they been in DX this year, might have done okay. After this year, they have 22 frosh-soph players and the cub board is bare. Throw in all the coaches from last twenty years gone.......way to go CIF!
Since they'll likely only take 2 teams for the playoffs, I'll wager their record will be 1-8 on Northern playoffs, with 6 of those loses by 40 or more.
If BD can keep stealing SB area players, they might make the semis once, but that's about all the TVL can hope for. The division boils down to the two top teams in Pac5, the two top teams from NPs league and the top team from the Golden, no one else has a shot at all. Maybe they'll let the TVL play with sling shots in the playoffs?
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Posted: 07/23/2014 6:20 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 



805football wrote: Just heard from a very reliable source, Nordhoff is done. Had they been in DX this year, might have done okay. After this year, they have 22 frosh-soph players and the cub board is bare. Throw in all the coaches from last twenty years gone.......way to go CIF!
Since they'll likely only take 2 teams for the playoffs, I'll wager their record will be 1-8 on Northern playoffs, with 6 of those loses by 40 or more.
If BD can keep stealing SB area players, they might make the semis once, but that's about all the TVL can hope for. The division boils down to the two top teams in Pac5, the two top teams from NPs league and the top team from the Golden, no one else has a shot at all. Maybe they'll let the TVL play with sling shots in the playoffs?
Actually I disagree somewhat. Yes the TVL probably won't see a championship over the next few years. Yes the #2 team in the TVL is toast in round #1. I agree with that. However, the 8 teams from the quarter finals on will be pretty evenly matched, I don't see any blowouts from the quarters on ....... exciting play offs for sure  .........

805football - for a consolation prize, I'll provide the 'special' hot chocolate if we see each other in the playoffs biggrin

Meow

Last edited 07/23/2014 9:31 AM by Beercat

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Posted: 07/23/2014 7:28 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


No thanks Bcar. I'll go to a few regular season Nordhpff games, but IF (and that's a big IF) they make the playoffs I'll spare myself the misery of watching any TVL teams in the playoffs. Poor bastards.
The only hope for a TVL team is to finish poorly for two tears and than be moved down to the Frontier in the TVC swap. Trade places with Grace Brethren or Santa Clara, grace Brethren in the DIII, wow, in two years that is highly likely.

Last edited 07/23/2014 7:33 AM by 805football

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Posted: 07/23/2014 9:37 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


My guess for the distribution of the 8 teams in the quarter finals:

Golden - 1 team
TVL - 1 team (possibly)
Camino - 2 or 3 teams
LPL - 1 or 2 teams
Pac-5 -  2 or 3 teams

I think the championship runs through The Camino league. I can't imagine a championship without one from the Camino  ..........

Meow

Last edited 07/23/2014 10:34 AM by Beercat

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Posted: 07/24/2014 11:49 AM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


it is a monumental f'up.  The idea I've been pitching for the past 5 years would have worked way better and would be the most fair system out there.  CIF has stood by and watched the West Ventura/South SB county leagues get caniblized and did nothing about it.  disbelief


Disclaimer:  I could be wrong?

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Posted: 07/24/2014 1:17 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Wouldn't it be easy for CIF to create a 'territory' for each private school. If your playing sports you would need to live in the 'territory of the private school. Very simple .........

It would create some fairness to the geographical problem ........

An example  .......


Meow

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Posted: 07/24/2014 1:50 PM

Re: Way to go CIF! 


Cat
Did Chaminade acquire Oak Christian?
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