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Weeden Question

Posted: 7/23/2012 4:29 PM

Weeden Question 


If anybody know the answer to this, it's you guys.   Can anyone help me find some examples from last season of Weeden struggling with pressure? I’ve been watching his games again and I’ve seen a little bit of trouble, but not so much that it should be the biggest knock against him. Who got to him the best?
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Posted: 7/23/2012 5:17 PM

Re: Weeden Question 


I'd love to see good examples too.  I watched as much as I could find on him and focused in on his supposed struggles dealing with pressure.  Everything I saw was a guy willing to take a shot to deliver a ball.  He did sometimes trust his arm a little much to throw of his back foot when their was opressure in his face, but that is 75% of the guys in the NFL.  I just don't see where he struggles anymore with pressure than any other QB.  I'd love to see it if I am wrong.
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Posted: 7/23/2012 5:23 PM

Re: Weeden Question 


We'll get to see for ourselves in about 3 weeks. It's almost upon us!

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang

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Posted: 7/23/2012 8:01 PM

Re: Weeden Question 



RenoBrownsFan wrote: I'd love to see good examples too.  I watched as much as I could find on him and focused in on his supposed struggles dealing with pressure.  Everything I saw was a guy willing to take a shot to deliver a ball.  He did sometimes trust his arm a little much to throw of his back foot when their was opressure in his face, but that is 75% of the guys in the NFL.  I just don't see where he struggles anymore with pressure than any other QB.  I'd love to see it if I am wrong.
One of my theories is that everybody has that wild play against Texas stuck in their head, where he took a safety and threw a INT for a TD.   As a result, that makes him struggle with pressure, but I'm not seeing it from the film that is available online (certainly not conclusive.)
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Posted: 7/23/2012 8:12 PM

RE: Weeden Question 


The Oklahoma State offense is one that rarely sees an NFL-shaped pocket form around the quarterback, or even for there to be much time to let pressure get there. I would personally not call it something he struggles with, just a question mark.

Last edited 7/23/2012 8:13 PM by EntertheShoe

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Posted: 7/23/2012 10:27 PM

Re: Weeden Question 


The thing is...Weeden isn't gun shy. He'll stare down the barrel of a blitz and take it on the chin. Some QB's are still pretty accurate when doing so. Weeden isn't one of those guys. Balls usually tend to sail or even flutter in such occasions.

The guy isn't exactly Blaine Gabbert here, but it's a question mark any young QB has to answer.

Can't stop talking football: Browns, NFL, college, even some high school @brentsobleski
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Posted: 7/24/2012 4:51 AM

Re: Weeden Question 


I've certainly seen how the OSU scheme helps him on tape.  However, I'm referring more to criticisms like this, from Greg Cosell, who has a pretty good rep for looking at the film:

"Of course, in the NFL, the ideal scenario of a comfortable, secure pocket does not happen quite as often as quarterbacks would like. You must be able to function effectively in the eye of the storm or you won’t play on Sundays. That’s where Weeden had some problems. The sample was small, given how well he was protected, but it was there nonetheless. When blitzed, Weeden struggled with both recognition and execution. Mentally, there were times he panicked, and physically, he did not exhibit the kind of subtle pocket movement that must be part of a pocket passer’s game in the NFL."

I'm not seeing the panicking, and I did see him move in the pocket pretty well to avoid rushers.  That's what's confusing to me, I feel like I'm missing something.
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Posted: 7/24/2012 3:55 PM

Re: Weeden Question 


It shouldn't be as big an issue in our timing based, quick-throw offense where the ball is typically supposed to be out of a QB's hand when his back foot hits the ground. No, it won't always work that way, but this I doubt thee's a whole lot of 7 step drops in this offense, and most throw are out on the steps.

Most of you won't remember this, but when Bernie came out it was very popluar to blitz him from everywhere because he was such a statue back there. It didn't take him long to show teams that blitzing him was the worst idea they could utilize against him.

And that's what Weeden will have to learn to do. Develop the skillset to #1 get rid of it quickly, and #2 burn defenses who think they can send pressure willy nilly like they did against Colt. The OL Tom's built will be a great reason to believe this won;t be a huge issue, but Weeden's still gotta have that clock in his head and the toughness to not flinch when it does get to him.

He stood in ther very nicely against Stanford. I'm not seeing this as being a deal-breaker based on the UT game.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang

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Posted: 7/24/2012 5:34 PM

Re: Weeden Question 


Most of you won't remember this, but when Bernie came out it was very popluar to blitz him from everywhere because he was such a statue back there. It didn't take him long to show teams that blitzing him was the worst idea they could utilize against him.


Yay I rememb . . .err maybe not so great . ..  but in all seriousness this has been my thought on this topic as well, hopefully things play out his way.
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Posted: 7/24/2012 7:37 PM

RE: Weeden Question 


I'm not sure he struggled with pressure... I more worried that he didn't really face any pressure. Those Big XII Defenses were pretty weak.




"So what are you going to write about?"  "I'm going to tell the truth." "Ahh... so it's a work of fiction!"  (Hopscotch)
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Posted: 7/25/2012 8:59 AM

RE: Weeden Question 


Most of you won't remember this, but when Bernie came out it was very popluar to blitz him from everywhere because he was such a statue back there. It didn't take him long to show teams that blitzing him was the worst idea they could utilize against him.

Several things about Bernie..
He learned to turn his right foot outward to give himself more mobility to get the snap and drop back..and he was deadly on exploiting a blitz..one annoying thing about him was that sidearm delivery which for a 6'6" QB got him a lot of batted balls down.

Last edited 7/25/2012 9:00 AM by Wardawg11

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Posted: 7/25/2012 9:29 AM

RE: Weeden Question 


I'm not sure he struggled with pressure... I more worried that he didn't really face any pressure. Those Big XII Defenses were pretty weak.


There is not a college player alive who's ever faced the pressure he'll face when he gets to the NFL. So it's moot until we see how he adapts to the game speed at the next level. Nobody would have guessed Gabbert or many other 1st rounders would be so bad at adapting, and few would guess that Kosar would have been so good at beating pressure.

But here's the biggest thing in all this--without the correct OC and system in place and a quality OL, BK was a less than average NFL QB. All his flaws were exposed the moment Infante left and Marty thought he was capable of being an OC. Marty was a solid HC, but like just about every other defensive-minded HC, he never understood and appreciated the importance of the QB position. No different than Mangini. And at that point BK was screwed.

But that won't be happening here with Weeden. He won't be allowed to constantly take deep drops in this timing-based WCO offense, or hold the ball while deep tree routes are run. His strengths on film match up extremely well with the cornerstone of our offensive philosophy. Make quick pre-snap reads, get into the right play, take a quick drop, get rid of the ball when the back foot hits the ground on the 3rd or 5th step.

Occasional deep drops will happen when it's time to take a shot deep after the play action becomes most effective when TR and an our OL have established a solid ground game. But the short timing pass game is the key. Weeden's ultra-quick release, natural footwork, strong arm into those tight windows, and extreme accuracy are what this staff is seeing from him that makes them so strongly believe that he's the perfect fit for what they want to do.

But it's just wait and see at this point.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang

Last edited 7/25/2012 9:37 AM by marktroy

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Posted: 7/25/2012 12:31 PM

RE: Weeden Question 



marktroy wrote:
I'm not sure he struggled with pressure... I more worried that he didn't really face any pressure. Those Big XII Defenses were pretty weak.


There is not a college player alive who's ever faced the pressure he'll face when he gets to the NFL. So it's moot until we see how he adapts to the game speed at the next level. Nobody would have guessed Gabbert or many other 1st rounders would be so bad at adapting, and few would guess that Kosar would have been so good at beating pressure.

But here's the biggest thing in all this--without the correct OC and system in place and a quality OL, BK was a less than average NFL QB. All his flaws were exposed the moment Infante left and Marty thought he was capable of being an OC. Marty was a solid HC, but like just about every other defensive-minded HC, he never understood and appreciated the importance of the QB position. No different than Mangini. And at that point BK was screwed.

But that won't be happening here with Weeden. He won't be allowed to constantly take deep drops in this timing-based WCO offense, or hold the ball while deep tree routes are run. His strengths on film match up extremely well with the cornerstone of our offensive philosophy. Make quick pre-snap reads, get into the right play, take a quick drop, get rid of the ball when the back foot hits the ground on the 3rd or 5th step.

Occasional deep drops will happen when it's time to take a shot deep after the play action becomes most effective when TR and an our OL have established a solid ground game. But the short timing pass game is the key. Weeden's ultra-quick release, natural footwork, strong arm into those tight windows, and extreme accuracy are what this staff is seeing from him that makes them so strongly believe that he's the perfect fit for what they want to do.

But it's just wait and see at this point.

Agreed.  Also, I can't wait to see Weeden and the rest of the young guys in action.

I think we all expect growing pains, but it is just so cool to have young guys like Richardson, Weeden (well maybe not all 'young'), Greg Little, and Gordon to watch grow together.  It was the right thing to do to load up on D players the first couple of years, but I can't rememebr an infusion of offensive talent in one offseason like this.  Record won't mean anything to me this year (as long as it isn't so bad that it is blown up), I just want to see if all these guys have the goods and to see a maturation process to hopefully be a contender in 2013 and on.
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Posted: 7/26/2012 3:38 PM

Re: Weeden Question 


I am probably over analyzing and assuming some things but the one thing from hearing and seeing Weeden is that he reminds me more of a golfer or tennis player vs. being an NFL quarterback. He delivers a nice ball but for his size he's a little bit of a skinny dude. Weeden is about 6'4" and weighs in the 220 range. Roethlisberger is about the same but usually is around 240. And Roethlisberger looks like a football player and has shown it. Flacco is almost 6'6" and weighs about the same or a little more than Big Ben. Andy Dalton is the shortest but he is still around 220 and looks very solid.

My one fear with Weeden is that he is going to take a few viscous hits and get injured right away and get gun shy. Maybe he can add some muscle and weight but that isn't going to happen right now.

And my other question is did the Browns draft him because they see what the other QB's in our division are in terms of size and thought that's what they needed? I would love Weeden to be the guy and for Colt to stick around and be a back up with a constant chip on his shoulder but there are some question marks. We'll find out pretty soon what we have.
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Posted: 7/26/2012 4:39 PM

Re: Weeden Question 



sumnomeaztim wrote: I am probably over analyzing and assuming some things but the one thing from hearing and seeing Weeden is that he reminds me more of a golfer or tennis player vs. being an NFL quarterback. He delivers a nice ball but for his size he's a little bit of a skinny dude. Weeden is about 6'4" and weighs in the 220 range. Roethlisberger is about the same but usually is around 240. And Roethlisberger looks like a football player and has shown it. Flacco is almost 6'6" and weighs about the same or a little more than Big Ben. Andy Dalton is the shortest but he is still around 220 and looks very solid.

My one fear with Weeden is that he is going to take a few viscous hits and get injured right away and get gun shy. Maybe he can add some muscle and weight but that isn't going to happen right now.

And my other question is did the Browns draft him because they see what the other QB's in our division are in terms of size and thought that's what they needed? I would love Weeden to be the guy and for Colt to stick around and be a back up with a constant chip on his shoulder but there are some question marks. We'll find out pretty soon what we have.

Eli Manning 6'4"  218lbs

Tom Brady 6'4" 225lbs

Aaron Rodgers 6'2" 225lbs

These guys have won 6 of the last 11 Super Bowls.  All about the same size Weeden.  I don't think size is what we have to worry about.
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Posted: 7/26/2012 5:45 PM

Re: Weeden Question 



marktroy wrote: It shouldn't be as big an issue in our timing based, quick-throw offense where the ball is typically supposed to be out of a QB's hand when his back foot hits the ground. No, it won't always work that way, but this I doubt thee's a whole lot of 7 step drops in this offense, and most throw are out on the steps.

Most of you won't remember this, but when Bernie came out it was very popluar to blitz him from everywhere because he was such a statue back there. It didn't take him long to show teams that blitzing him was the worst idea they could utilize against him.

And that's what Weeden will have to learn to do. Develop the skillset to #1 get rid of it quickly, and #2 burn defenses who think they can send pressure willy nilly like they did against Colt. The OL Tom's built will be a great reason to believe this won;t be a huge issue, but Weeden's still gotta have that clock in his head and the toughness to not flinch when it does get to him.

He stood in ther very nicely against Stanford. I'm not seeing this as being a deal-breaker based on the UT game.
Isn't this based on the assumption that we have someone besides Richardson to release out.  If we end up having to bring in TE like Alex Smith to block every time its 3rd and 7, it won't matter.  Schwartz IMO is the key to all of this offensive firepower.  We need to act like there is another guy on the field.  If you can legitimately present two WRs on the outside, a slot, a RB, and then a true TE where all of them release at some point in the play, that is what is going to make this offense click (or at least the thought that we could do that.)  But none of that is going to be possible if you have to keep a TE and your RB home to block for the extra blitzers that are going to come crashing on Weeden.
We're tired of waiting Jimmy. 
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Posted: 7/26/2012 8:06 PM

Re: Weeden Question 


Good point but Weeden still doesn't look as solid as they do. I'll be the first person to tell you my fears weren't justified but they are there.
RenoBrownsFan wrote:
sumnomeaztim wrote: I am probably over analyzing and assuming some things but the one thing from hearing and seeing Weeden is that he reminds me more of a golfer or tennis player vs. being an NFL quarterback. He delivers a nice ball but for his size he's a little bit of a skinny dude. Weeden is about 6'4" and weighs in the 220 range. Roethlisberger is about the same but usually is around 240. And Roethlisberger looks like a football player and has shown it. Flacco is almost 6'6" and weighs about the same or a little more than Big Ben. Andy Dalton is the shortest but he is still around 220 and looks very solid.

My one fear with Weeden is that he is going to take a few viscous hits and get injured right away and get gun shy. Maybe he can add some muscle and weight but that isn't going to happen right now.

And my other question is did the Browns draft him because they see what the other QB's in our division are in terms of size and thought that's what they needed? I would love Weeden to be the guy and for Colt to stick around and be a back up with a constant chip on his shoulder but there are some question marks. We'll find out pretty soon what we have.

Eli Manning 6'4"  218lbs

Tom Brady 6'4" 225lbs

Aaron Rodgers 6'2" 225lbs

These guys have won 6 of the last 11 Super Bowls.  All about the same size Weeden.  I don't think size is what we have to worry about.
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Posted: 7/28/2012 9:16 AM

Re: Weeden Question 



SOBOdawg wrote: The thing is...Weeden isn't gun shy. He'll stare down the barrel of a blitz and take it on the chin. Some QB's are still pretty accurate when doing so. Weeden isn't one of those guys. Balls usually tend to sail or even flutter in such occasions.

The guy isn't exactly Blaine Gabbert here, but it's a question mark any young QB has to answer.

I agree.  I know the speed of the game is a gigantic adaptation via DB closing speeds and quickness of pass rushers.  Nothing to argue; but there is a synergistic effect people often overlook with young QBs that I'll explain.

One thing that is never apples to apples are these QB workouts overusing the conclusion "best workout ever."  What part of these workouts orchestrated by the QB emphasizing his strengths have ever shown the throwing conditions the crappiest NFL teams are offering him?  There's no hurried throws or pressed WRs or anything challenging easy street and timing. When Charlie Sheen is in the same dream state he's "WINNING!"  He might even argue he's undefeated.  Would you want him driving your car?  Me neither!

Furthermore, Brady Quinn looked pro ready against Michigan State and many suspect defenses on his schedule. However, what did he look like vrs LSU when he lost 42-14?  That might have been the best foreshadow of life in the AFC North under duress in Cleveland.  On the other hand, a guy like Aaron Rodgers defeated a much more talented USC program than the one he was QBing.  I think it's important to see what guys can do vrs the biggest challenges in front of them. If there's proof they can elevate everyone above and beyond - you take the next Bernie Kosar reminder. The only time Brady Quinn ever looked like the same QB trashing Michigan State was when he had a user friendly Detroit Lions Secondary rolling over and playing dead.   Brandon Weeden consistently overcame the margin of error provided by the 107th ranked defense.  He had his team in the conversation of belonging in the BSC National Championship Game; but settled for beating Andrew Luck's team instead.

I like that we added a blitz buster feature in Trent Richardson for our young QB.  I'm ecstatic we added acceleration gears to our WR corps.  The Mitchell Schwartz addition was another comfortable component for our next starting QB.  I think Tom Heckert and his scouts have done a terrific job in filling the biggest weaknesses with some of the best prospects for doing.

Welcome to Cleveland - for a couple minutes...

Last edited 7/28/2012 9:33 AM by Awakesydaisies

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