10 chances in 10 different offenses?

He was 2nd in Receptions last year, and had one of the better Drop Ratios, as in NOT dropping the football.

Now, not sure if that means he is an NFL WR or if the other guys aren't... jus' sayin'.

People act like he isn't producing.  He is.  I'd prefer him to be a Slot WR/KR/PR though.  His window to be a legit #1/#2 has passed.

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--- SOBOdawg wrote:

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd like to see what Mo Massaquoi has this season with an upgrade at QB and a running game.

I love the fact that he's been training with the best during the off season.

And he's basically had two seasons ruined because two different QB's led him directly into concussions.

The only time he really had any advantage is the few weeks he lined up opposite Braylon. But we really haven't seen it since.

So, color me curious.

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I'm actually in the group with you. Mo benefited from Braylon's command of a Safety & Anderson's ability to throw the ball deep.

Also, the learning curve for a WR comes into play, as Darius Heyward Bay is a good example of how a good running game, WRs having to be accounted for, a big armed QB, & the WR learning curve is not a fallacy. He's also just one of plenty of examples how some guys are busts or relative unheard of's & go somewhere via FA & become a top tier or at least productive WR. Laurent Robinson, Brandon Lloyd, & there are plenty of other examples.

Little / Benjamin / Thomas / Pinkston / Mack / Miller / Schwartz/ Moore / Massaquoi
Weeden

Richardson

Now that we have a solid RT & a RB that can protect, we should be able to have more sets, similar to that above, where more viable weapons are on the field, not having to have additional blockers. I really hope that Shurmur finds a way to get Moore on the field much more often. We're talkin about a big, fast, pass catcher that makes some of the best corners in the league look bad. I can actually see why we aren't running out into FA for another WR. But, these guys we are counting on are also counting on Weeden having the necessary time to get the ball out. For it to all work, we need to keep Weeden upright on a regular basis & we also need to keep Alex Smith on the sideline for passing downs.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that the plan in place becomes one that we see executed starting day 1.

Little/Mo/Benjamin

I'm on board with Cribbs. I'm hoping he takes one final step up this year into NFL WR-dom. He is a football player and a gamer, and he has excellent yac skills. His hands have been steadily improving and his feet became much better last year. TR is a do-everything-at-a-high-level beast, and there's no reason they can't occasionally pull Cribbs into the backfield as a tailback with TR lead blocking. TR was the strongest guy on Alabama. Lord knows he can lead block right now, better than Marecic ever will. But as a change of pace, when TR is in a single back set, and the D slips into a nickel, it's nice to be able to go to a full backfield in an instant. Cribbs has halfback running ability, and he seems perfectly suited to slip back there a couple times a game. Maybe Childress can come up with some creative ways to use Cribbs... bubble screens with TR and Little target blocking, etc. Cribbs is also a willing blocker down field and will help spring TR in the secondary.

I'm hoping Little earns the #1, and Cribbs edges out Massaquoi for the #2 (with both doing well), and Benjamin being a pleasant surprise in the slot. Mithcell or someone else with upside and speed can be #5.

Brrexkl wrote: 10 chances in 10 different offenses?

He was 2nd in Receptions last year, and had one of the better Drop Ratios, as in NOT dropping the football.

Now, not sure if that means he is an NFL WR or if the other guys aren't... jus' sayin'.

People act like he isn't producing.  He is.  I'd prefer him to be a Slot WR/KR/PR though.  His window to be a legit #1/#2 has passed.

WR?  RB?  Which position will benefit most from Weeden?  I'll tell ya which...



The QB position!




(I'll be here all day)

Air Al wrote: I'm on board with Cribbs. I'm hoping he takes one final step up this year into NFL WR-dom. He is a football player and a gamer, and he has excellent yac skills. His hands have been steadily improving and his feet became much better last year. TR is a do-everything-at-a-high-level beast, and there's no reason they can't occasionally pull Cribbs into the backfield as a tailback with TR lead blocking. TR was the strongest guy on Alabama. Lord knows he can lead block right now, better than Marecic ever will. But as a change of pace, when TR is in a single back set, and the D slips into a nickel, it's nice to be able to go to a full backfield in an instant. Cribbs has halfback running ability, and he seems perfectly suited to slip back there a couple times a game. Maybe Childress can come up with some creative ways to use Cribbs... bubble screens with TR and Little target blocking, etc. Cribbs is also a willing blocker down field and will help spring TR in the secondary.

I'm hoping Little earns the #1, and Cribbs edges out Massaquoi for the #2 (with both doing well), and Benjamin being a pleasant surprise in the slot. Mithcell or someone else with upside and speed can be #5.

How many years will Cribbs get before others realize he isn't a NFL caliber WR? I know QB play has been bad. But he doesn't help the matter by running poor routes and still not understanding the nuances of the position. If we're relying on him again, the team will be in trouble.

BTW, he's not going to be used in the backfield. I'm not sure why everyone thinks this will eventually happen.

And it's awesome so many are quickly willing to write Marecic off. He's no where near as bad as people make him out to be. And he was also a rook last year playing in a limited offense. My biggest concern with him is concussions, not his blocking ability. There was a reason he was the top ranked FB coming into this league.

What nuances?

He gets open, catches the ball, and scores TDs better than anyone else on the roster.

I must be missing something.

2nd best on the roster in Catch Percentage, only Evan Moore and his 3 yard routes was more consistent.

  1st in 20+ Percentage, both off Receptions and Targets.  He is at the 25% Mark for 20+ Reception Percentage, Wes Welker is at 17.5%.  Not saying he's Wes Welker, I'm saying when he makes the catch there is a 1 in 4 chance of Cribbs taking it 20+ Yards... which happens to be a very high rate.

  Then there were the Touch Downs.  On a team that didn't score many Touch Downs.

  As much love as Little gets, and to have been a rookie the love was well deserved, the stats say Little pales in comparison to Cribbs.  Cribbs is the best WR on this Roster as far as Production goes (when looking at impact per Target or Reception) where Little had more Receptions and Yardage purely by virtue of being targeted nearly twice as much. 

  And then there was the issue of him not just catching the football at a fairly high rate... but also not dropping it when targeted.

  So his route running may not be to the level of Chris Carter, the man makes the plays.  Playing for the same weak armed QB that people like to use as an excuse as to why Little didn't play better, playing for the same QB that couldn't get Brian Robiskie and Mohammad Massoqui the ball.  The same conditions, yet somehow Cribbs managed to perform consistently.  The ONLY thing Cribbs needs at this point is more Targets.

  He's not perfect.  He won't be a legit #1.  Except on a team that doesn't have a legit #1... like this one.  My hope is Little improves and Cribbs can be the #2 or the Slot.

  I think he can fit that bill.  No need to expect #1 results from him, no reason to put that burden on him either.  But as a #2 or a #3 I think he's got what it takes, he just needs a QB to (pardon me, Keyshawn) give him the damn ball.

  Now he will have a full OTA and Pre-Season with a legit arm giving him chances.  Now, that legit arm may not grasp the game or may have other short-comings, but he will certainly be able to give Cribbs more chances during a time where the WR Coach and OC can see what Cribbs can really do.  And if there are areas he needs to work on they can now let him know what those are.  Cribbs is a professional, there is no doubt in my mind he won't wort to improve those areas.  Perhaps they haven't been able to bust him on the routes when the QB hasn't been putting the ball where the route is intended to go, or perhaps the routes Cribbs runs wrong are designed a bit out of McCoy's effective range so he shorts them to be in a better spot for the ball.  Or perhaps Cribbs just isn't an effective route runner.  Any and/or all could be true, but now with Weeden we can start to see if it's more McCoy or more Cribbs, and if it is more Cribbs he can be effectively coached on it now.

  If it's Cribbs the Weeden allows this to be exposed so Cribbs can improve on an individual area.  This will make him a better WR for any QB.  If it's McCoy then having Weeden can allow Cribbs to be targeted more so he can raise his production to Legit WR status.

  I mean, if relying of Cribbs means this team is lost... I would hate to think what relying on guys that produce less than Cribbs would be like (MoMass, Robo, anyone with the possible exception of Little that is on the roster).

  Percentage-wise he is the top producer.  Overall he is the 2nd best Producer.  No one else rose to the challenge aside from him... we only added one new WR in the 4th Round... and we are ready to sign off on Cribbs?

  Sobo, I don't see how we can.

Skandlasandlas wrote: What nuances?

He gets open, catches the ball, and scores TDs better than anyone else on the roster.

I must be missing something.

First of all, being the best on the worst unit in the NFL last year isn't saying much.

Second, nuances to the wide receiver position are vital. How they sell routes. Consistently breaking the routes off at the right depths. Being able to read the soft spots in the zones and adjusting. The ability to explode out of cuts to create separation. Etc.

None of these things Cribbs has done with any level on consistency. And I'm not sure why we'd expect him to at this point in his career when he's 29. This regime wants players that are precise and reliable. That's never been Cribbs.

Skandlasandlas wrote: What nuances?

He gets open, catches the ball, and scores TDs better than anyone else on the roster.

I must be missing something.

Me too!  I'm not in a hurry to make him a water boy between STs plays when his ratio of TDs per play is the best in our WR Corps.  Cribbs looked like the only WR that showed improvement in 2011.  If we have never had the right coaches or QB here since he was drafted, he wasn't going to overcome a college resume of 0 experience running routes to polished WR without some great coaching happening.  If I swing a golf club the wrong way for 5 years does it matter if I take 5000 swings or 50?  Do we have a lot of examples of WRs drafted in recent years showing tremendous improvement?

Ironically, Massaquoi was basically handed unchallenged tenure because of the bad QBs and coaching excuses. I was hearing he just needed a better QB back when we failed to find the lesser of 2 evils with DA and BQ so then he got awarded the same excuses when Delhomme stunk it up.  Wallace sports a 1-6 record in games started so there was no carpet diem there either.   Despite popular popular opinion, it wasn't just McCoy holding back Massaquoi. 

In 3 years of of watching MM, I don't think I've ever seen him finish an out route or run a decent curl or comeback. He seems limited to straight a heads, slants and posts, which can limit an already limited passing game.  When MM was at UGA with AJ Green drawing the best corner every week - he could get away with the sins the NFL doesn't allow him especially with Stafford's arm.  I think Massaquoi's best day as a pro required the cooperation of Detroit's shakey secondary (2-3 years ago) indoors on what seemed to be Quinn's best day as well.  The prerequisite was a below standard secondary and pass rush which explained why it was an exception to the rule.  Then again, that was a game Cleveland lost.  This year he'll get the bazooka arm; but that doesn't mean he can keep his head up his dumpster.

I think we should all be excited about Weeden; but our WRs are going to have to help out an inexperienced QB this year.  They're going to have to finish routes, CATCH passes touching fingers/chests, read leverages/blitzes and above all - be on the same page as the QB.

marktroy wrote: I hate to put so much emphasis on the kid, but MoMass' success to me is completely dependent on us being able to get the safeties outta the box, which means Benjamin will have to have a great effect on this offense. I get the QB timing and antiicaption and everything with a better QB, but without TB this offense is still congested in the box and our existing WR's can't get deep on their own being so pedestrian.

But Little and Moass could be extremely effective on the short and intermediate routes if TB can take the top off. By himself, I don't see MoMass making a big difference in this offense. But that's what the WCO is all about.

And that's why they picked Benjamin earlier than most thought anybody would. They're obviously counting on him hugely to be the final piece that keeps defenses honest.

Expect Little to be faster this year and MoMass as Sobo suggested may have had the issue of ball placement but he also had inconsistent hands at times too.  I would like to see if he can rebound but Mitchell is one I want to see in addition to Gordon.  I like your suggested line up of the WRs and I hope to see Mitchell get more opportunities as I think he can produce for this offense.

Here's something we can all agree on...

Mitchell has not been on the field yet.  He's not making the final 53 unless he gets on the field - soon.

There are enough guys who are stepping up that the bar is raised much higher at WR this year.  Potential is no longer enough to make the roster.

It's pretty simple at this point (and I know this was written well before camp and even before the drafting of Gordon).

The team's top four are:

Little
Gordon
MoMass
Benjamin

Cribbs makes the team, but he's considered more of a special teamer again (Thank God).

Then Norwood and Cooper have an outside shot to make the team.

I would rather keep one or two of the undrafted WRs on the PS than waste another year waiting on Carlton.

Carlton Mitchell will have to havea great camp to make this team.

That comment alone should tell you the difference from this training camp observations from prior years.

There is real talent on the team and it is showing.

We are not talking about potential talent.

Some guys mightmake the practice squad if they get through free agency.

josh gordon will be wearing mitchell's #18 real soon.........

Cribbs. LOL! Only kidding.

I'm actually here to chime in on Mohammad Massoquoi. I'm not sold on him at all, have very little faith that he will improve to become a legit NFL Starting WR.

HOWEVER, though I am Kell, sometimes I am prone to being wrong. I'm not wrong YET, mind you. Just an alert that it COULD happen.

MoMass has been getting a lot of praise from Practice lately, has been getting targeted and has been finishing off plays. I'm not sure if his Route Running (finishing Routes, selling Routes, etc) has improved, if his hand/eye has improved, or if he just isn't all cobwebs upstairs now and is getting his confidence back... but the small indicators (not enough data points) we have currently say he is going to have a break out over his previous production.

I'm surely happy for the kid, as I am happy for any Brown that I doubt that proves me wrong.  I haven't heard much about Cribbs, who is penciled as the 4th.  This makes MoMass the Slot, where we believe Benjamin/Norwood/Cooper should reside... and MoMass has been in the 1 and 2 slots as well so I'm sure we won't be as strict as most in regards to 1/2/Slot etc.

Benjamin has been getting much love, makes me feel like Norwood (since MoMass is in the Slot) and Cooper will be released (and Mitchell) and like the Brown's would love Norwood and Cooper to pass waivers to hit the PS, with Mitchell either PS or out.

Little, Gordon, Massaquoi, Benjamin... Cribbs as a 4/ST type.  Leaves us what, 1 more WR slot open?  Of those, I've heard good things out of camp and practice from every WR, with the exception of Cribbs.

Could be a very surprising year if we can keep the Pass Rush at bay.

Brr,

Since I see you are a subscriber, I'll direct you to AtI to get LA's take on the pecking order right now - and who is playing in the slot.

You are correct that we may only have 5 WR's - including Cribbs on the roster.

My how things have changed in a short time.  

Brrexkl wrote:

Benjamin has been getting much love, makes me feel like Norwood (since MoMass is in the Slot) and Cooper will be released (and Mitchell) and like the Brown's would love Norwood and Cooper to pass waivers to hit the PS, with Mitchell either PS or out

Browns prefer bigger slot receivers. Greg Little will move to the slot in 3 to 4-wide sets.

Right, but Little is a #1.  He's not the 'specialty' slot guy.  We didn't get Benjamin for nothing, so I assume him to be the 'specialty' slot.

  Going big is nice, no doubt.  I like the idea, even.  And I'm sure what transpires on the field and what is penciled in on paper will be different things.  We'll see Benjamin get some reps at 1 and 2, we will see Little at the Slot, we will see MoMass at Slot but filling in for 1/2 when they get tired, may even see Cribbs at 1/2 in Sub Situations and 4 Wide deals.  Guys that are slotted one thing will be all over the field.

Brrexkl wrote: Right, but Little is a #1.  He's not the 'specialty' slot guy.  We didn't get Benjamin for nothing, so I assume him to be the 'specialty' slot.

  Going big is nice, no doubt.  I like the idea, even.  And I'm sure what transpires on the field and what is penciled in on paper will be different things.  We'll see Benjamin get some reps at 1 and 2, we will see Little at the Slot, we will see MoMass at Slot but filling in for 1/2 when they get tired, may even see Cribbs at 1/2 in Sub Situations and 4 Wide deals.  Guys that are slotted one thing will be all over the field.

You're generalizing to a degree. The No. 1 WR is a myth in these forums. Just because a guy plays in the slot doesn't mean it's a "specialty position."

Little has already stated he will be working in the slot when other WRs are on the field. Shurmur (I believe) said previously Benjamin would work both outside and inside.

It will really on the play call and scheme much more so than generalized perceptions of the a position.