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The Bitonio standard

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Posted: 5/12/2014 11:03 AM

The Bitonio standard 


First, let's start by pointing out that the Browns clearly wanted to go in a certain direction in the draft and they achieved that goal. They're going to be a run-first team that relies heavily on their ground game to protect whatever QB is behind center and open up the passing attack. 

Now, let's take it a step further and look how the offensive line is being built. 

Adding Nevada's Joel Bitonio, a top-notch athlete is a major step in the right direction for this zone-blocking scheme. He'll solidify the left side of the offensive line. 

What I wanted to do was take a look at the level of athlete he is and use it as a reference for those competing to start on the right side. 

(All numbers are provided by nfldraftscout.com)

Bitonio finished Top 5 in every event at the NFL combine, expect for bench press. Here are his movement numbers: 

40 - 4.97
10 split - 1.68
20 shuttle - 4.44
3-cone - 7.37

To the right side of the O-line: 

Greco

40 - 5.29
10 split - 1.78
20 shuttle - 4.82
3-cone - 8.03

Schwartz

40 - 5.38
10 split - 1.88
20 shuttle - 4.87
3-cone - 7.86

Gilkey

40 - 5.29
10 split - 1.76
20 shuttle - 4.75
3-cone - 7.65

McQuistan

40 - 5.07
10 split - 1.74
20 shuttle - 4.65
3-cone - 7.72

Pinkston

40 - 5.39
10 split - 1.86
20 shuttle - 4.91
3-cone - 7.88

Fragel 

40 - 5.09
10 split - 1.77
20 shuttle - 4.68
3-cone - 7.62


Chris Faulk never worked out prior to the draft due to injury. 


I know some might be curious on two other linemen:

Joe Thomas

40 - 4.92
10 split - 1.75
20 shuttle - 4.88
3-cone - 7.95

Alex Mack

40 - 5.17
10 split - 1.75
20 shuttle - 4.75
3-cone - 7.31


What do we see when we look at these numbers (while also some of these guys are veterans and their numbers are likely different a few years after being in the league)? 

While none of the linemen competing to start on the right side hold a candle to Bitonio, a couple are comparable to Thomas and Mack as athletes in certain areas. 

McQuistan is arguably the next best athlete out of the bunch and best suited for a zone blocking scheme. Gilkey was a little higher on this list than I expected. And Fragel has some legit potential. However, none of them are standout athletes. But that's what the team currently has to work with. 

And it's not like Shanahan hasn't worked with lesser athletes, particularly on the right side, the last few years. 

If you look at Tyler Polumbus, who graded very highly last year by PFF but will likely be replaced this year in Gruden's more physical offense, here are his combine stats: 

40 - 5.30
10 split - 1.81
20 shuttle - 4.86
3-cone - 7. 71

Polumbus was also 6-8 with some length to compensate.

On the flip side, the Redskins' RG Chis Chester was an outstanding athlete and a college center. He's the closest thing to Bitonio we've included in the post so far. 

40 - 4.83
10 split - 1.68
20 shuttle - 4.51
3-cone - 7. 33

Plenty of numbers here to digest. What I take from it is simple, there is going to be a LOT of competition on that right side of the line. Even so, they right mix of talent for this scheme might not be quite there as of yet.

Can't stop talking football: Browns, NFL, college, even some high school @brentsobleski
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Posted: 5/12/2014 11:12 AM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


Great thread, SOBO.

One that I'll pollute with a bit of a dumb (or at least lazy) question: has McQuistan ever played in a ZBS before?

Also, if you were to guess at Faulk's ranking amongst our RT candidates in terms of athleticism, where would you put him, do you think?

“Do you even football?" - UABrownsFan

"Its my fault and i accept the those who dont believe my vore poiny." - DoginCincy
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Posted: 5/12/2014 11:27 AM

Re: The Bitonio standard 



bwwyyyy wrote: Great thread, SOBO.

One that I'll pollute with a bit of a dumb (or at least lazy) question: has McQuistan ever played in a ZBS before?

Also, if you were to guess at Faulk's ranking amongst our RT candidates in terms of athleticism, where would you put him, do you think?
One thing I didn't realize until I went back and watched a few games is that the Seahawks run a lot of zone blocking. And that's when McQuistan played at his best. He's really suited for the scheme. 

When they decided to change game plans to more power based running offense (which you could see change on a weekly basis some times), McQuistan wasn't nearly as good. 

Once I saw that, it alleviated some of the concerns I originally had when McQuistan signed. 

As for Faulk, I definitely wouldn't expect him to be on the high end of this athletic spectrum. He was a plodding LT in a LSU's power scheme. Maybe I'll be surprised, because I liked his overall talent, but I'm really curious if his talent will transition.

Can't stop talking football: Browns, NFL, college, even some high school @brentsobleski
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Posted: 5/12/2014 11:34 AM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


Well, it at least seems to shift the perspective from "this guy is terrible and had better be for depth only"--where it was when McQ was signed--to "maybe legit starter in this scheme?" For a guy who's already made as many stops as he has in his career, however, I'd have thought he'd have sought out this scheme fit before now, but whatever.

A McQ + Fragel right side certainly wouldn't have been my assumed pairing, but it's an interesting possibility.

“Do you even football?" - UABrownsFan

"Its my fault and i accept the those who dont believe my vore poiny." - DoginCincy
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Posted: 5/12/2014 11:58 AM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


I can tell you this, the OSU Insider (From Scout)has shared Fragel's measurable in the not to distant past and that guy is an insane athlete/specimen. OSU Insider also has said the Browns are really high on him.
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Posted: 5/12/2014 12:01 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


When you look at Bitonio's numbers and every other O-lineman on our roster, it becomes pretty clear that this kid from Nevada can really move!  Wow.

But talking more about the right side of the line... which combine numbers are more important for a guard than a tackle?

For example, I'd imagine the 3-cone drill is a great indicator of a guard's ability to quickly adjust course and get to the linebacker or even pull around center when not zone blocking.  But perhaps the 3-cone measure is less key for a tackle.

Gilkey had a good, not great, 7.65 in the 3-cone drill. It's more impressive than what some of our other linemen clocked at.

Last edited 5/12/2014 12:02 PM by FunkMastaBuck

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Posted: 5/12/2014 12:37 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


Not sure Bitionio doesn't play on the right side at OT.
aka: BrownLeader
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Posted: 5/12/2014 12:37 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 



e0y2e4 wrote: I can tell you this, the OSU Insider (From Scout)has shared Fragel's measurable in the not to distant past and that guy is an insane athlete/specimen. OSU Insider also has said the Browns are really high on him.
I know you'd shared this with me recently, but I don't remember whether or not I asked you for your opinion on him as an actual player...so?

I'd be curious to know how a good football player who's also a great athlete lasts until the 7th round...even when he's from a no name program like OSU.

Short of, "He was raised by wolves and was first introduced to the object named football in 2012, which he ate, and to the chagrin of Urban Meyer and his staff, rather enjoyed eating, so much so that any position on the field that allowed for the possibility of him coming into contact with football was eliminated from consideration," I'm a little skeptical. noidea

“Do you even football?" - UABrownsFan

"Its my fault and i accept the those who dont believe my vore poiny." - DoginCincy
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Posted: 5/12/2014 12:51 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 



JH360 wrote: Not sure Bitionio doesn't play on the right side at OT.
It's possible. I project him to guard. I thought I heard the Browns would going to start him out at LG. Otherwise, it's an incorrect assumption on my part. But it's still interesting to look at the difference in the athleticism regarding a drafted linemen for this system compared to those already on the team.

Can't stop talking football: Browns, NFL, college, even some high school @brentsobleski
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Posted: 5/12/2014 12:52 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


He wasn't an OL till his senior year. Moved over from TE and was very solid in that year, but more development is and was needed before he is an NFL starter. The fact that he was good during his senior year after never playing the position says a lot to me
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Posted: 5/12/2014 1:29 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


TE coaches, wolves, same difference...

Woohoo, go Fragel!

“Do you even football?" - UABrownsFan

"Its my fault and i accept the those who dont believe my vore poiny." - DoginCincy
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Posted: 5/12/2014 1:37 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


So SOBO, do you see the most likely scenario to start out the year being Thomas, Bitonio, Mack, McQuistan, Schwartz as the starters from right to left with Greco, Pinkston, Gilkey, Faulk, and Fragel ans the depth and developmental backups? 

Would they carry 10 OL? 

And are Gilkey, Faulk, and Fragel still eligible for the practice squad?
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Posted: 5/12/2014 1:48 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 



FunkMastaBuck wrote:

But talking more about the right side of the line... which combine numbers are more important for a guard than a tackle?

For example, I'd imagine the 3-cone drill is a great indicator of a guard's ability to quickly adjust course and get to the linebacker or even pull around center when not zone blocking.  But perhaps the 3-cone measure is less key for a tackle.

Gilkey had a good, not great, 7.65 in the 3-cone drill. It's more impressive than what some of our other linemen clocked at.
Of the three I listed, you can basically rule out the 40. But that 10-yard split and change-of-direction drills are certainly important. 

Gilkey is a perfect example. He's a relatively good athlete overall. Yet, it shows up on film that he struggles to move laterally. 

And the key to zone stretch is being able to work down the line laterally. If you can't do it, it's unlikely you'll remain on the team. 


bwwyyyy wrote: 
e0y2e4 wrote: I can tell you this, the OSU Insider (From Scout)has shared Fragel's measurable in the not to distant past and that guy is an insane athlete/specimen. OSU Insider also has said the Browns are really high on him.
I know you'd shared this with me recently, but I don't remember whether or not I asked you for your opinion on him as an actual player...so?

I'd be curious to know how a good football player who's also a great athlete lasts until the 7th round...even when he's from a no name program like OSU.

Short of, "He was raised by wolves and was first introduced to the object named football in 2012, which he ate, and to the chagrin of Urban Meyer and his staff, rather enjoyed eating, so much so that any position on the field that allowed for the possibility of him coming into contact with football was eliminated from consideration," I'm a little skeptical. noidea
I'm thing I'll also note about Fragel, he played one year in Urban Meyer's zone blocking scheme. And he got better throughout the year and visibly so. I remember watching him in the spring game, and he was awful. But he was pretty darn good by the end of the season. He really grew into the role. 


MirORich wrote: So SOBO, do you see the most likely scenario to start out the year being Thomas, Bitonio, Mack, McQuistan, Schwartz as the starters from right to left with Greco, Pinkston, Gilkey, Faulk, and Fragel ans the depth and developmental backups? 

Would they carry 10 OL? 

And are Gilkey, Faulk, and Fragel still eligible for the practice squad?

Most likely?

Thomas-Bitonio-Mack-McQuistan-Schwartz

I think Schwartz's status is in question, though. And there is going to be able competition at the three spots that Thomas, Mack, Bitonio don't occupy. 

Fragel is the most intriguing from an athletic perspective. And we have to define exactly what position Bitonio is eventually going to play. 


Can't stop talking football: Browns, NFL, college, even some high school @brentsobleski
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Posted: 5/12/2014 1:49 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 





---------------------------------------------
--- bwwyyyy wrote:

TE coaches, wolves, same difference...

Woohoo, go Fragel!

---------------------------------------------

Also, dude has Hercules physique. He put on a lot of weight to move to the OL and still doesn't have any fat. I don't know if it ever works out, but from a developmental prospect OL in this scheme perspective, I think big things are coming.
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Posted: 5/12/2014 2:00 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


We are so playoffs.

“Do you even football?" - UABrownsFan

"Its my fault and i accept the those who dont believe my vore poiny." - DoginCincy
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Posted: 5/12/2014 2:11 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 



SOBOdawg wrote: First, let's start by pointing out that the Browns clearly wanted to go in a certain direction in the draft and they achieved that goal. They're going to be a run-first team that relies heavily on their ground game to protect whatever QB is behind center and open up the passing attack. 

Now, let's take it a step further and look how the offensive line is being built. 

Adding Nevada's Joel Bitonio, a top-notch athlete is a major step in the right direction for this zone-blocking scheme. He'll solidify the left side of the offensive line. 

What I wanted to do was take a look at the level of athlete he is and use it as a reference for those competing to start on the right side. 

(All numbers are provided by nfldraftscout.com)

Bitonio finished Top 5 in every event at the NFL combine, expect for bench press. Here are his movement numbers: 

40 - 4.97
10 split - 1.68
20 shuttle - 4.44
3-cone - 7.37

To the right side of the O-line: 

Greco

40 - 5.29
10 split - 1.78
20 shuttle - 4.82
3-cone - 8.03

Schwartz

40 - 5.38
10 split - 1.88
20 shuttle - 4.87
3-cone - 7.86

Gilkey

40 - 5.29
10 split - 1.76
20 shuttle - 4.75
3-cone - 7.65

McQuistan

40 - 5.07
10 split - 1.74
20 shuttle - 4.65
3-cone - 7.72

Pinkston

40 - 5.39
10 split - 1.86
20 shuttle - 4.91
3-cone - 7.88

Fragel 

40 - 5.09
10 split - 1.77
20 shuttle - 4.68
3-cone - 7.62


Chris Faulk never worked out prior to the draft due to injury. 


I know some might be curious on two other linemen:

Joe Thomas

40 - 4.92
10 split - 1.75
20 shuttle - 4.88
3-cone - 7.95

Alex Mack

40 - 5.17
10 split - 1.75
20 shuttle - 4.75
3-cone - 7.31


What do we see when we look at these numbers (while also some of these guys are veterans and their numbers are likely different a few years after being in the league)? 

While none of the linemen competing to start on the right side hold a candle to Bitonio, a couple are comparable to Thomas and Mack as athletes in certain areas. 

McQuistan is arguably the next best athlete out of the bunch and best suited for a zone blocking scheme. Gilkey was a little higher on this list than I expected. And Fragel has some legit potential. However, none of them are standout athletes. But that's what the team currently has to work with. 

And it's not like Shanahan hasn't worked with lesser athletes, particularly on the right side, the last few years. 

If you look at Tyler Polumbus, who graded very highly last year by PFF but will likely be replaced this year in Gruden's more physical offense, here are his combine stats: 

40 - 5.30
10 split - 1.81
20 shuttle - 4.86
3-cone - 7. 71

Polumbus was also 6-8 with some length to compensate.

On the flip side, the Redskins' RG Chis Chester was an outstanding athlete and a college center. He's the closest thing to Bitonio we've included in the post so far. 

40 - 4.83
10 split - 1.68
20 shuttle - 4.51
3-cone - 7. 33

Plenty of numbers here to digest. What I take from it is simple, there is going to be a LOT of competition on that right side of the line. Even so, they right mix of talent for this scheme might not be quite there as of yet.
Now where have I seen this before.....oh yeah: http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s...2844970&p=1
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Posted: 5/12/2014 2:12 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


If I start a thread about Vince Young being our starting QB in 2013, will you remind me where you'd seen that before?

“Do you even football?" - UABrownsFan

"Its my fault and i accept the those who dont believe my vore poiny." - DoginCincy
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Posted: 5/12/2014 2:16 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


But really, besides your thread being focused on which ZBS-friendly OL we might draft, without any mention of McQ, and SOBO's thread being focused on how the right side of our OL might shake out after the addition of Bitonio, with McQ figuring prominently, as well as a comparison with some of Shanny's OL from last year, yeah plagiarism, totally.

“Do you even football?" - UABrownsFan

"Its my fault and i accept the those who dont believe my vore poiny." - DoginCincy

Last edited 5/12/2014 2:18 PM by bwwyyyy

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Posted: 5/12/2014 2:32 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 



bwwyyyy wrote: But really, besides your thread being focused on which ZBS-friendly OL we might draft, without any mention of McQ, and SOBO's thread being focused on how the right side of our OL might shake out after the addition of Bitonio, with McQ figuring prominently, as well as a comparison with some of Shanny's OL from last year, yeah plagiarism, totally.
Like I said in the Cooler, if I knew the thread existed, it would have saved me a fair amount of time this morning. 

Alas, twas not the case.

Can't stop talking football: Browns, NFL, college, even some high school @brentsobleski
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Posted: 5/12/2014 3:13 PM

Re: The Bitonio standard 


As much as I liked Gilkey's potential in a power scheme, I have low expectations of him in the ZBS. Guards are pretty much required to be 6'4" and under and have a low center of gravity.

That being said, I believe our top 4 OG's are Greco, Bitonio, Pinkston and McQ. Everybody else is either in the OT rotation or on the outside looking in.

And yes, I see Fragel as having the potential to stick as an OT along with Faulk, with Schwartz potentially being traded.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang

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