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Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of

Posted: 3/24/2012 6:40 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 



keokuk wrote: "So if this NFL executive who was willing to go on the record to discuss these specifics is to be believed, not only does it raise questions about whether Holmgren was honest with Browns season ticket holders on last week’s call, but it’s apparent that the Browns didn’t actually make their “best offer” in the first place given that they tried to make another one. Which strongly suggests not only that the Browns could have had RG3 for the effective price of what they got for last year’s first round pick plus one more first rounder, but that they actually would have landed him if they’d only followed Snead’s instructions in the first place."

-- I must be missing something. I must be.

Even if Snead's comments are taken at face value:

- He is saying that it was a one offer deal. We knew that.

- He is saying that the Browns tried to make another offer after they were told the Shanahan offer won. We have been told that.

 It still leaves open several questions. Did the Browns really make another offer and if so, why did they think the Rams might listen? Was it really clear to the Browns that this was only a one offer deal? What effect did the Shanahan/Fisher relationship have in this deal? Did the Browns deal offer somehow get communicated to the Skins so they could beat it? And did the FO really want to move up at a big expense anyway?

It is another valid piece of the puzzle, though. Even if it comes from the Rams GM.

"SD:

Randy get your franchise back and fire this slob lieing bastard"

-- Given all we know, that may be the saddest/funniest thing that could be said.
If Snead's comments can be taken at face value, then at the very least Holmgren lied on the conference call with the season ticket holders.

Spin that.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 12:39 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


"If Snead's comments can be taken at face value, then at the very least Holmgren lied on the conference call with the season ticket holders.

Spin that."

-- Not sure I can.

Maybe you can help me. What Holmgren quote was a clear lie? Not a pre-draft misdirection or a difference of GM opinion, but a clear, undebatable lie? And if it somehow hurt the Browns in the draft that would be good to know also.

Secondly, at worst if you don't take Snead at face value, it sounds like one GM is saying one thing and one GM is saying another. I don't see any proof of a lie yet. But if there is a clear Holmgren lie at tne bottom of this, bring me up to speed.

But if you feel Snead is more honest than Holmgren, let me know.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 7:28 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 



keokuk wrote: "If Snead's comments can be taken at face value, then at the very least Holmgren lied on the conference call with the season ticket holders.

Spin that."

-- Not sure I can.

Maybe you can help me. What Holmgren quote was a clear lie? Not a pre-draft misdirection or a difference of GM opinion, but a clear, undebatable lie? And if it somehow hurt the Browns in the draft that would be good to know also.

Secondly, at worst if you don't take Snead at face value, it sounds like one GM is saying one thing and one GM is saying another. I don't see any proof of a lie yet. But if there is a clear Holmgren lie at tne bottom of this, bring me up to speed.

But if you feel Snead is more honest than Holmgren, let me know.
I'm sure they both are liars, but in this case, why should Snead lie? He has nothing to hide.

It's Holmgren with egg on his face. He's the one with the lowball offer. He's the one whose team had all the ammo to get a deal done and failed. He's the one with reason to lie.

I, for one, don't need a televised confession from the man himself to see the obvious. I can connect the dots on my own.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 8:05 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


"I'm sure they both are liars, but in this case, why should Snead lie? He has nothing to hide.

It's Holmgren with egg on his face. He's the one with the lowball offer. He's the one whose team had all the ammo to get a deal done and failed. He's the one with reason to lie.

I, for one, don't need a televised confession from the man himself to see the obvious. I can connect the dots on my own."

-- Got it. You have no evidence to point to. Just opinion. Which doesn't separate you from the rest of us, of course.
If GMs are doing their jobs effectively, they are "liars" at some point. I guess it comes with the territory. Especially this time of year.

I would think Snead's reasons to twist things to his advantage and down play any Fisher/Shanahan relationship would entail keeping his rep and protecting other organization figures among other things. I mean, if you were looking for reasons he might "spin" something.

But Holmgren is the Brown's GM. He's the guy we should judge.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 8:25 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


Like I said, I don't need a confession. Obviously you do.

And last time I checked, Heckert was the Browns GM. But I can understand your confusion as Holmgren is the one that makes all the bad decisions.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 8:37 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


"Like I said, I don't need a confession. Obviously you do."

-- Nope. No confession needed. Just solid evidence.

"And last time I checked, Heckert was the Browns GM. But I can understand your confusion as Holmgren is the one that makes all the bad decisions."

-- Good catch. Once Holmgren leaves Heckert's GMness will be better ingrained for me.

But I'm not sure if that's important for the discussion. It can be argued that Holmgren has made bad decisions. But I do think the Browns are better off structurally as an organization than they were when Holmgren was hired.
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Posted: 3/25/2012 8:49 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


"But I do think the Browns are better off structurally as an organization than they were when Holmgren was hired"

- Yeahhhh, maybe. I do like the fact that they are all of one accord. I just wish they were more fle#ible.

And just b/c they're paid professionals doesn't make them infallible.

Mike's holier-than-thou, you all should just trust me attitude rubs me wrong.

The sooner he's gone, the better I'll like it.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 11:42 AM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


"Yeahhhh, maybe."

-- Holmgren didn't have a very high bar to jump over when he was hired. Mangini and Lerner?

Whaever is thought of Holmgren's job performance, I do think he's hired and organized some good guys for the Browns.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 12:10 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 



keokuk wrote: "Yeahhhh, maybe."

-- Holmgren didn't have a very high bar to jump over when he was hired. Mangini and Lerner?

Whaever is thought of Holmgren's job performance, I do think he's hired and organized some good guys for the Browns.
SD:

whoopee , we have the most bloated overpaid staff in the NFL  and the least amount of production to show for all that cash outlay .

Sheeeesh.
WAR : OUR TIME HAS COME
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Posted: 3/26/2012 3:00 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


"SD:

whoopee , we have the most bloated overpaid staff in the NFL and the least amount of production to show for all that cash outlay .

Sheeeesh."

-- Then here's a question: Besides Holmgren- who you think with some reason is overpaid and overweight- do you think the Browns have a good FO and good scouts?

To me, that's the "legacy" that Holmgren will leave behind.

Forget for a minute about salaries in the FO. Just tell me if the people in place seem to be good people doing a good job. Again, not counting that overweight, overpaid villain Holmgren.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 3:43 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 



keokuk wrote: "SD:

whoopee , we have the most bloated overpaid staff in the NFL and the least amount of production to show for all that cash outlay .

Sheeeesh."

-- Then here's a question: Besides Holmgren- who you think with some reason is overpaid and overweight- do you think the Browns have a good FO and good scouts?

To me, that's the "legacy" that Holmgren will leave behind.

Forget for a minute about salaries in the FO. Just tell me if the people in place seem to be good people doing a good job. Again, not counting that overweight, overpaid villain Holmgren.
SD:

Defensively Jauron has come in here on the run and shaped up that side of the ball immediately in combo with  Ray Rhodes , they have been very effective .

Shurmur  ( Mikes nephew ) has been a bust so far , the jury is out on Chilly  but mind ya he left his last stint in front of a lynch mob team mutiny .

Heckert has done poorly he's missed a half dozen cheap upgrades at free agency over the last three free agencies and has not one significant draft pick which has shined beyond the third round .

The front office rates a D- having regressed from 5 wins to four and failing to sign a veteran quality signal caller until they can replace him with a franchise prospect thru the draft which further stagnated the growth of the team .

Three years in we have 30th worst offense in the NFL and these guys specialties were offense.

Did i mention we have no QB .



SoulDawg
WAR : OUR TIME HAS COME

Last edited 3/26/2012 3:48 PM by SoulDawg74

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Posted: 3/26/2012 4:50 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


"SD:

Defensively Jauron has come in here on the run and shaped up that side of the ball immediately in combo with Ray Rhodes , they have been very effective .

Shurmur ( Mikes nephew ) has been a bust so far , the jury is out on Chilly but mind ya he left his last stint in front of a lynch mob team mutiny .

Heckert has done poorly he's missed a half dozen cheap upgrades at free agency over the last three free agencies and has not one significant draft pick which has shined beyond the third round .

The front office rates a D- having regressed from 5 wins to four and failing to sign a veteran quality signal caller until they can replace him with a franchise prospect thru the draft which further stagnated the growth of the team"

-- So defense has done well, the jury is out on the offense, Heckert has not had a "significant draft pick" beyond the 3rd round, has missed on FA. (There apparently is some debate about how much money we are allocating, how much FAs want to come here and how much the team really values FA)..

No matter our grades for anyone, I wonder how our FO rates besides the average FO? How are they seen around the league? Is there a respected system that rates franchises or FOs?
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Posted: 3/26/2012 5:34 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


"No matter our grades for anyone, I wonder how our FO rates besides the average FO? How are they seen around the league? Is there a respected system that rates franchises or FOs?"

- Ahh com'on keo, Holmgren can't attract a decent HC, no FA's want to sign here. and another team's GM all but called him a liar. He continues to trot out a JV QB as our starter, which in of itself scares off would be FA wr's.  He saddles us with a GM whose greatest claim to fame is that he was Andy Ried's coffee gopher. The perception around the players agents is that the Browns aren't interested in winning. WE even have some draft picks saying they don't want to be picked by us. And there was a report that Matt Barkley stayed at USC just to avoid being picked by the Browns.

Other than that, Mike's been all I thought he would be.
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Posted: 3/26/2012 7:13 PM

Re: For those who doubt holmgrens a lieing devious piece of 


"Other than that, Mike's been all I thought he would be."

-- I think I've said this before: Anyone can be fired and anyone can be upgraded.

So who do we get?
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