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Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again

  • PeterB58
  • Junkyard Terror
  • 2156 posts this site

Posted: 2/8/2013 3:35 PM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 



redright wrote:


Problem, No team has ever moved if it had a lease or agreement with any city. Even the Colts left Blt when the City didn't give them a lease. Irsay leaving in the dead of night. NO different than any other tenant whose lease was not renewed by the landlord. My memory is the town fathers of Blt made it clear that the Colts could go if they expected any consideration from the City.

Uh...no.  While the lease with Irsay had expired, the city was negotiating (in good faith it thought) an extension along with plans for a new stadium (what turned out to be the early designs of Camden Yards).

This after Irsay had been openly negotiating with other cities to move his team.  Being caught drunk at BWI airport returning from Phoenix and filmed helicoptering onto the 50-yard line of the Gator Bowl in front of 45,000 people during Jacksonville's "Colt Fever" campaign (not exactly the Lerner spy plane on the tarmac at BWI).

In March 1984, Several state legislators got wind that Irsay was close to completing a deal with an unknown city and tried to prevent it with eminent domain legislation.  It would not have held up in court, but it spooked Irsay enough.  That's when he bolted.  No one ever told Irsay to "go ahead and leave" as you seem to imply.

Hindsight being 1000/20, the city and state were never in synch in their negotiations with Irsay.  Some wanted to give him whatever it took to get him to stay, others played varying degrees of hardball.  They should have presented a clear, consistent message....especially to someone that was blasted out of his mind half the time....if it was before noon.

And in further hindsight Maryland should have just built him a new stadium and waited the damned old drunk out until he died.  12 years of horrific football with the Peyton Manning rainbow at the end would have been better than 12 years of nothing....for Baltimore and Cleveland.

Last edited 2/8/2013 3:55 PM by PeterB58

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  • redright
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Posted: 2/8/2013 6:00 PM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 



PeterB58 wrote:
redright wrote:


Problem, No team has ever moved if it had a lease or agreement with any city. Even the Colts left Blt when the City didn't give them a lease. Irsay leaving in the dead of night. NO different than any other tenant whose lease was not renewed by the landlord. My memory is the town fathers of Blt made it clear that the Colts could go if they expected any consideration from the City.

Uh...no.  While the lease with Irsay had expired, the city was negotiating (in good faith it thought) an extension along with plans for a new stadium (what turned out to be the early designs of Camden Yards).

This after Irsay had been openly negotiating with other cities to move his team.  Being caught drunk at BWI airport returning from Phoenix and filmed helicoptering onto the 50-yard line of the Gator Bowl in front of 45,000 people during Jacksonville's "Colt Fever" campaign (not exactly the Lerner spy plane on the tarmac at BWI).

In March 1984, Several state legislators got wind that Irsay was close to completing a deal with an unknown city and tried to prevent it with eminent domain legislation.  It would not have held up in court, but it spooked Irsay enough.  That's when he bolted.  No one ever told Irsay to "go ahead and leave" as you seem to imply.

Hindsight being 1000/20, the city and state were never in synch in their negotiations with Irsay.  Some wanted to give him whatever it took to get him to stay, others played varying degrees of hardball.  They should have presented a clear, consistent message....especially to someone that was blasted out of his mind half the time....if it was before noon.

And in further hindsight Maryland should have just built him a new stadium and waited the damned old drunk out until he died.  12 years of horrific football with the Peyton Manning rainbow at the end would have been better than 12 years of nothing....for Baltimore and Cleveland.
Uh We disagree.  My buddy was and is Colt fan. Followed it closely.  My memory is of a disagreeable city counsel until it was too late, much like Homestead Fla did with the Indians. After the team moves on, the blame campaign begins.
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  • redright
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Posted: 2/8/2013 6:20 PM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 


Peter,

Here is a launching point for your review of the conditions existing when Irsay and Balt addressed the Stadium or Move situation. I have a definite memory of a city hall member speaking of not wasting any money on the Colts and if they didn 't like it too bad. Some of the councillors represented districts in which the homeowners were unhappy with the Colts games and the fans taking over their neighborhood. Further, A new stadium would cost a lot of money, raise taxes and upset a lot of voters.

 You may have a memory of Irsay being a drunk. Okay, but how is it that drunk could get a bright and shiny new dome stadium in Indy? Could there be some fault of Baltimore?  I'm going with more than a lot. Especially so in viewing the arrogance of the "lawmakers" in attempting to seize his team.



The Colts were unhappy with the condition of the stadium they played in and Indianapolis offered them a new indoor dome.

Robert Irsay, the Colts owner, had many problems with Baltimore and the stadium, Memorial stadium.

1. Due to being far from the downtown area and any major highway, traffic to and from Colt games was very heavy and tied up traffic and trapped locals in their homes. It was also hard to find being about seven miles fron the downtown area on 33rd street. Many fans got lost getting to or coming from the stadium.

2. The stadium was a very poor football stadium and the seating bowl ended at the fifty yard line, the end zone near 36th street was open taking away money making seats. It also no club level. It was far behind its time.

3. The city of Baltimore would not allow the Colts to play at the NFL's usual start time at one. Instead, they started at two which by law. Sports events were not allow to start before two on Sundays. Because of this the Colts had a hard time being on national T.V.

4. The Orioles, the city's baseball team, also used the stadium and had control over food sales, and parking fees even during football season despite the fact that both teams payed a rent fee.

5. The team was playing poorly and attentence went to about 20,000 in a stadium that could hold 60,000.

6. The city wanted to upgrade the stadium but both teams had different demands and the city could not make both happy so it did not upgrade the stadium.

In the spring of 1984 the Colts lease on the stadium was up and Irsay wanted a new stadium or to move. Instead of working out plans with Irsay, Maryland's senate passed a law that allowed the state to take the team from him by the powers of eminemt domain. All that was needed was the law to pass by the House of Delegates. That was enough for Irsay to decide what to do. He moved his team Indianapols and its Hoosier Dome. Baltimore did however learn from its mistakes. When the Orioles said they had a lot of the same problems with the stadium (location and condition for example,) and threatened to move to Washington D.C., Baltimore built Oriole Park at Camden Yards . Just six years later they would build M&T Bank Stadium for a new NFL team, the Ravens.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_...leave_Baltimore

Again this is just a place to begin.  You may develop a different view of the matters when you look at both sides anew.

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  • PeterB58
  • Junkyard Terror
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Posted: 2/9/2013 11:38 AM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 



redright wrote: Peter,

You may have a memory of Irsay being a drunk. Okay, but how is it that drunk could get a bright and shiny new dome stadium in Indy? Could there be some fault of Baltimore?  I'm going with more than a lot. Especially so in viewing the arrogance of the "lawmakers" in attempting to seize his team.

Indianapolis didn't care who owned the team...they just wanted a team.

And I have never said that Baltimore was blameless...many (too many) politicians were outspoken in their vitriol of Irsay...after 10 years of arguably the worst ownership in the NFL, it sounded good to voters.  Shockingly, most politicians didn't have the wisdom or the courage to take the long view:  Just build a new damn stadium, and wait the owner out.

The Colts were unhappy with the condition of the stadium they played in and Indianapolis offered them a new indoor dome.

Robert Irsay, the Colts owner, had many problems with Baltimore and the stadium, Memorial stadium.

1. Due to being far from the downtown area and any major highway, traffic to and from Colt games was very heavy and tied up traffic and trapped locals in their homes. It was also hard to find being about seven miles fron the downtown area on 33rd street. Many fans got lost getting to or coming from the stadium.


(snipped the rest)

Irsay did not live in Baltimore.  He flew in on game days from Chicago, at about 10:00 AM, usually already tipsy...he went to the stadium and pounded beers during the game...maybe calling a play or two down to the sideline...then after the game, in locker room, he would drunkenly love everybody or hate everybody (perhaps try to fire a coach or two), depending on the game's outcome...back to the airport that night and back to Chicago.

That owner cared about the fan experience in Baltimore?  I care about your so I am going to take your team away?  With all due respect, whoever wrote that (even if it was someone from Baltimore), doesn't have a ******* clue.

Again this is just a place to begin.  You may develop a different view of the matters when you look at both sides anew.

Nope...my view remains the same.  Modell and Irsay were far from perfect owners.  While Modell may have been a average to below-average owner; Irsay ranks up there with one of the worst owners in professional sports.

Both Balitimore and Cleveland gambled in varying degrees that they could keep their teams in a antiquated stadium (at least in the short-term) without consequences.  Whether they thought they had the assurances of the owner about not leaving or not, it flew in the face of where the rest of the league was going in terms of new stadiums.  They were in a sense, playing with fire.

Or they mis-calculated that if the team did move, they would quickly re-enter the NFL and move on, sans poor owner, as successful NFL teams.

With Pete Rozelle privately stating that Baltimore would get a team in the next expansion round (expected at that time in 1986-87), I don't think Baltimore envisioned it would take 12 years and a round of hardball with the league to force their way back into the NFL.

Cleveland...while getting a replacement team quickly...I suspect didn't think that the return to competitive football would be so hard.

Last edited 2/9/2013 11:44 AM by PeterB58

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  • redright
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Posted: 2/11/2013 7:42 PM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 


Peter,

Two feet of Cleveland in my back yard and power returned today, so I am a little late in responding.

Not concerned about who is the bigger slime ball, neither owner is hail fellow well met. The difference is in the cities. I am not nor have I ever been a resident of Ohio or Maryland.  I don't have a bias in this view of the cities.  Here is the difference.

Cleveland gave Modell a stadium for one dollar and a promise to build a new stadium in 20 years. Twenty years as they had to build a basket ball arena, a baseball park, science museum, rock and roll hall of fame, etc. Fine says Modell and I will have the Browns play all of their games at the Muni until the new stadium can be built on the adjoining parking lot. In year 17, Modell breaks his lease and bolts to Baltimore. The ONLY owner in the NFL to not honor his comittments to a city. 

Please don't think I am going to cry a river over Baltimore not getting a team for  years. The only reason Cleveland got team in three  years, they had the NFL over a barrel...no team..no colors, then the Baltimore Browns can play the next three in the empty mistake by the lake in Cleveland Ohio.

OK, You take some comfort in Irsay being a Chi-town carpet bagger. Modell was a NYC carpetbagger. Irsay had no ties to the community??? Hello""" maybe the town farthers should have a clue. If cities are begging for franchises and throwing money at an owner without ties to the community, perhaps arrogance and high handed treatment is not the way to go. Baltimore and Maryland gave the Colts short-shrift. Irsay did nothing more than you or I or any sane person would do... go to where you are wanted. How wanted? Indiana and Indianapolis threw millions at him to come. Baltimore and MD gave Irsay the finger and he returned the same.  Can you say comeuppance?

Can you find any outreach, inducement, willingness of the City of Baltimore to make the retention of the Colts attractive?  I know of none. Never heard of any effort on behalf of the people or city to spend millions to keep the Colts in Baltimore. Cleveland had the construction, bond for building the stadium, on the ballot when Art left.

And just in case you think I am unaware of the difficulties a community has in building a stadium or retaining a franchise in a community, Boston had a terrible time and failed in building stadiums or arenas for the Red Sox, Bruins, Celtics and Patriots. The Red Sox got a re-make, the Celtics and Bruins gotg a new arena, the Patriots got a new stadium half-way between Boston and Providence.

Please go to square one. Review the happenings that forced the move out of Baltimore. I gave you a starting point. With a little research, you will discover how shabbily the City of Baltimore treated the NFL and Irsay and how disingenuous the politicians have been.

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Posted: 3/5/2013 8:49 PM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 


"Please go to square one. Review the happenings that forced the move out of Baltimore. I gave you a starting point. With a little research, you will discover how shabbily the City of Baltimore treated the NFL and Irsay and how disingenuous the politicians have been."

-- Hey, the Rats just got handed- I mean won- a Super Bowl! Don't confuse the argument with facts.

This sort of debate just underscores to me how moneyed fools should be taken out of the ownership equation and communities that actually support and pay for a team should have control. They should take a "less is more" approach and aim to have a good team at a reasonable price. Overpaid prima donnas, corporations and faceless bureaucratics need not apply.

That's a possible situation that can only come about if things as they are really change.
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