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Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again

  • PeterB58
  • Junkyard Terror
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Posted: 2/7/2013 9:35 AM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 



Aardvark wrote: Modell did a lot FOR the league with the television contract and MNF.

He did a lot AGAINST the league by moving a franchise that had no business being moved. 
It was done simply as the last act of a desperate man, an owner who couldn't make money in a league where you'd have to be a helluva boob not to be raking it in.

So those items cancel each other out.
Let me first say that I have been on record as saying I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on Modell going into the HOF, but I am curious about the above statement and have a question.

Al Davis?

Certainly his accomplishments involve building up the Raiders (as a coach, GM and owner)...not withstanding the fact that after induction, he proceeded to destroy what he'd built...but we are digressing.  He was also instrumental (along with Hunt in KC and the dude in Houston) with merging the 2 leagues.


But he also moved his franchise (the first of the modern franchise relocations)  and sued his own league twice (successfully) for the right to do so...thereby enabling (if you will) both Irsay, Modell and the dude in Houston, now Nashville.

I always have found the arguments above AGAINST Modell's induction interesting to think about when they can easily be applied to a current HOF owner.

Sidebar:  Of course, any owner that can make Mike Brown look competent by providing millions of dollars in salary cap relief and sprinkling the Bengals with the fountain-of-youth by injecting them with (almost certainly high) #1 draft picks for half-a-decade deserves credit for.....something...I guess...
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Posted: 2/7/2013 9:47 AM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 



PeterB58 wrote:
Aardvark wrote: Modell did a lot FOR the league with the television contract and MNF.

He did a lot AGAINST the league by moving a franchise that had no business being moved. 
It was done simply as the last act of a desperate man, an owner who couldn't make money in a league where you'd have to be a helluva boob not to be raking it in.

So those items cancel each other out.
Let me first say that I have been on record as saying I have no strong feelings, one way or the other, on Modell going into the HOF, but I am curious about the above statement and have a question.

Al Davis?

Certainly his accomplishments involve building up the Raiders (as a coach, GM and owner)...not withstanding the fact that after induction, he proceeded to destroy what he'd built...but we are digressing.  He was also instrumental (along with Hunt in KC and the dude in Houston) with merging the 2 leagues.


But he also moved his franchise (the first of the modern franchise relocations)  and sued his own league twice (successfully) for the right to do so...thereby enabling (if you will) both Irsay, Modell and the dude in Houston, now Nashville.

I always have found the arguments above AGAINST Modell's induction interesting to think about when they can easily be applied to a current HOF owner.

Sidebar:  Of course, any owner that can make Mike Brown look competent by providing millions of dollars in salary cap relief and sprinkling the Bengals with the fountain-of-youth by injecting them with (almost certainly high) #1 draft picks for half-a-decade deserves credit for.....something...I guess...
Just my perspective....Al Davis was part of the AFL and built a franchise and helped build a competing league which was merged into what we now have as the NFL. Can't argue he wasn't a big part of the history of the league.

Art Model came in and took over the dominant franchise, fired its legendary coach and built it down into a mediocre franchise for 30 years. His one claim to fame...as in his only claim to fame...was MNF and that was really a no brainer...wasn't it? Prime time TV?

He doesn't have the credentials. If he gets in then all owner should automatically get in which means its not a hall of fame, just a hall of owners.
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  • PeterB58
  • Junkyard Terror
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Posted: 2/7/2013 9:58 AM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 



Gary Reents wrote: 

Just my perspective....Al Davis was part of the AFL and built a franchise and helped build a competing league which was merged into what we now have as the NFL. Can't argue he wasn't a big part of the history of the league.

No doubt.

Art Model came in and took over the dominant franchise, fired its legendary coach and built it down into a mediocre franchise for 30 years.

Well, I can't really argue that point...he's certainly no Art Rooney with 4 championships (after half-a-century of the most horrific football one city could produce...but I am digressing again).

However, the debasing of the Browns is one you rarely here about in the national discussions with regards to Modell and HOF.  The main thing (the only thing really) that is brought up is THE MOVE.  Which is why I asked the question about Davis...because he was to franchise relocation what Modell was to the TV deals and MNF.

Put another way...let's say he never moved the Browns, and let's also say that the Browns remained a mediocre team.  Does he get in?  I think he does...

His one claim to fame...as in his only claim to fame...was MNF and that was really a no brainer...wasn't it? Prime time TV?

Well, I think you are discounting here a bit, it was MNF and the national TV deals...he basically was a key part in getting the networks to "make it rain" on the NFL year-after-year.   And I thought MNF was revolutionary at its time and that many people thought football on a weeknight would not work?

He doesn't have the credentials. If he gets in then all owner should automatically get in which means its not a hall of fame, just a hall of owners.

Well, whether he has the credentials or not...I think is now a moot point.  If it wasn't this year, it probably won't happen.

Last edited 2/7/2013 10:05 AM by PeterB58

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  • vdubble
  • Homework Muncher
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Posted: 2/7/2013 10:29 AM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 


Looking at it objectively, I think you are right.  If the Browns remained in Cleveland and Bellichick remains the coach (big ifs), Modell likely gets in as he would have probably won a SB or appeared in one with a few tweaks of the team that moved to Baltimore.  He had a horrific lack of insight to his legacy when he moved the team from a very active and vocal fan base in Cleveland.  Sure Davis, Adams and Irsay all moved their teams but they had an argument of lack of support.  Not true in Cleveland at all.  There was the stadium issue but that could be resolved.  Better money managers (Jerry Jones) don't even want part ownership of the stadium, they want the whole enchilada.  Art did some horrible things to Browns fans and he did some good things for the League and the team.  Both are true. We had some success as I recall just couldn't get it done.  I love the Cardiac Kids years as well as the Schottenheimer era. Wouldn't trade them for the world.  He made a choice, a desperate bad choice.  It cost him the Hall.  With his passing and missing the Hall, the Ravens closing the Ray Ray window and no current players being ex-Browns, I am ready to move on to a new window today.  New coaches, FO and some good young players.  We keep saddling every new regime since the return with our ****, consciously or subconsciously, we want to hold on to the familiar woe.  Like a championship is going to be graciously given by the leaque for past transgression.  Ask any African-American, reparitions aren't coming so figure it out and be successful.  We need to worry about that not keep comparing to what happened last or past!
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  • PeterB58
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Posted: 2/7/2013 10:45 AM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 



vdubble wrote:  With his passing and missing the Hall, the Ravens closing the Ray Ray window and no current players being ex-Browns, I am ready to move on to a new window today.  New coaches, FO and some good young players.  We keep saddling every new regime since the return with our ****, consciously or subconsciously, we want to hold on to the familiar woe.  Like a championship is going to be graciously given by the leaque for past transgression.  Ask any African-American, reparitions aren't coming so figure it out and be successful.  We need to worry about that not keep comparing to what happened last or past!
I said this in the past...winning the SB is like an entire city getting laid....and Cleveland REALLY needs to get laid to get past the ex-girlfriend, so to speak.

And I am firmly convinced that winning a SB starts at the top...with ownership...sure, you can luck into one here or there (Tampa Bay, for instance)...but the most successful franchises have had stable owners at the top that hire good people and let them do their jobs.

And I am not claiming that Modell was a model owner...I will grant that he basically lucked into his first Super Bowl by having the good sense to leave Newsome alone long enough to assemble one of the best, if not the best, single season defenses in league history (good enough to put a ring on Trent Dilfer's finger).  Bisciotti was a minority owner at the time and he had to good sense to not interfere when he took over and he came through in the clutch with the one decision (so far) that he needed to make...jettisoning Billick and by-passing Sexy Rexy for the Eagles special teams coach.  His next big decision will come when Ozzie decides to step down...

With Cleveland, you guys have hope, because whether or not Haslam and Banner are "those guys"...you knew that Lerner and whoever he hired was not...

Last edited 2/7/2013 10:50 AM by PeterB58

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Posted: 2/7/2013 11:04 AM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 



PeterB58 wrote:
vdubble wrote:  With his passing and missing the Hall, the Ravens closing the Ray Ray window and no current players being ex-Browns, I am ready to move on to a new window today.  New coaches, FO and some good young players.  We keep saddling every new regime since the return with our ****, consciously or subconsciously, we want to hold on to the familiar woe.  Like a championship is going to be graciously given by the leaque for past transgression.  Ask any African-American, reparitions aren't coming so figure it out and be successful.  We need to worry about that not keep comparing to what happened last or past!
I said this in the past...winning the SB is like an entire city getting laid....and Cleveland REALLY needs to get laid to get past the ex-girlfriend, so to speak.

And I am firmly convinced that winning a SB starts at the top...with ownership...sure, you can luck into one here or there (Tampa Bay, for instance)...but the most successful franchises have had stable owners at the top that hire good people and let them do their jobs.

And I am not claiming that Modell was a model owner...I will grant that he basically lucked into his first Super Bowl by having the good sense to leave Newsome alone long enough to assemble one of the best, if not the best, single season defenses in league history (good enough to put a ring on Trent Dilfer's finger).  Bisciotti was a minority owner at the time and he had to good sense to not interfere when he took over and he came through in the clutch with the one decision (so far) that he needed to make...jettisoning Billick and by-passing Sexy Rexy for the Eagles special teams coach.  His next big decision will come when Ozzie decides to step down...

With Cleveland, you guys have hope, because whether or not Haslam and Banner are "those guys"...you knew that Lerner and whoever he hired was not...
You brought up Al Davis, and just to coninue on that for a moment. Al was a AFL commissioner for a bit, as well as an owner.

Had Art remained in Cleveland and won a SB or two, he might have gotten in. Probably so. But if his teams continued to be mediocre with maybe a playoff appearance here or there...no. He was just a guy with a con mans charm.
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Posted: 2/7/2013 11:55 AM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 


PETER:

I said this in the past...winning the SB is like an entire city getting laid....and Cleveland REALLY needs to get laid to get past the ex-girlfriend, so to speak.

AA:

Great line, but time more than a championship probably cooled the Ballmer hatred for the Irsays.  And I imagine a lot of locals slapped themselves when they saw Cleveland threaten legal action on taking the name and colors.  The Colt name and unis were sacred down there.  The Ravens still look like they came over from the XFL.

And a whole city getting laid can only go so far.  Take the Red Sox finally winning the WS.  Their fans went from being perennially whiny mopes about the Curse of the Bambino to obnoxious imitations of Yankee fans. 

I think the differences between Davis and Modell, besides those already pointed out, was that Davis had legit reasons for moving, and had the cajones to challenge his owner breathren in the process.  For better or for worse, it was an integral part of league history.

Modell moved for no good reason.  Oh, he said many things to make it sound like his hands were tied, and it's the same delusional crap of dictators testifying before the World Court on war crimes charges.  He bungled his way into debt, and then took the short end money from a city and state that effectively acted as the abused growing up into becoming abusers (ie. "hey, we've been phuqued over.  Now it's our turn!"). 

Modell weighed his options, and basically decided that leaving his son a legacy was more important than the city that gave him his fortune-- in spite of himself-- over three decades.

And I think NFL owners looked upon him as a John Gotti.  This thing of ours was making each of them all the richer.  Ya didn't have to do anything, and you could make money.  Just don't call undue attention to yourself and our thing.

And if you're gonna move your franchise, that's calling some attention to us.  So make sure you're doing it for the right reasons, reasons that are clear to the public at large.  Irsay may not have done it deftly, but Memorial Stadium was a shytehole (I know, I saw a few Colts and O's games there) with no future.  The Cardinals to Arizona?  Got it. 

But Modell's move was for no good reason and created a big dust up for the entire league and made it harder for owners to do it in the future, even if their reasons were far more legit.  On this note, Modell, was not good for the league, aka the owners. 

And how would they have broadcast the HOF game had 20+k fans started in after the opening kickoff with "Phuque Modell" chants for the next three hours?  Who needs all the blowback articles about "What was the NFL and HOF thinking when they enshrined this guy?"

PETER:

With Cleveland, you guys have hope, because whether or not Haslam and Banner are "those guys"...you knew that Lerner and whoever he hired was not...

AA:

The same could be said about switching out qb's.  That's just an easier process. 

Still, knowing one wasn't going to cut it doesn't make the new guy's odds any better.  Gotta pin hopes on more than that.
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  • PeterB58
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Posted: 2/7/2013 12:48 PM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 



Aardvark wrote: PETER:

AA:

Great line, but time more than a championship probably cooled the Ballmer hatred for the Irsays.

PB58:

It's certainly a combination.  The first SB seemed to validate that Baltimore had come all the way back.  Sort of a big FU to Irsay and the NFL.

I think there would still be plenty of angst if the trophy case was still empty and Jimmy was sporting a couple of rings. 


And I imagine a lot of locals slapped themselves when they saw Cleveland threaten legal action on taking the name and colors.  The Colt name and unis were sacred down there.

PB58: I know you don't want to hear this...but Modell, like Irsay, owned the name and colors...sure, I am sure a local judge in Cleveland would have ruled that he had to give them up...but that would have been overturned on appeal.  They were his property..and the state just can't take it away...just as Baltimore and Maryland couldn't take the team or name or colors away from Irsay.

Modell saw that nobody in Baltimore wanted to root for the Baltimore Browns...sure, an ex-governor, Redskin season-ticket holder, to-this-day-has-never-been-seen-at-a-Ravens game held up a Browns mug at the press conference, but I think you'all read too much into that one instance.

Modell saw it as a battle not fighting...and hoped it would generate some goodwill with the public and the league by leaving them.

The Ravens still look like they came over from the XFL.

Ha. Ha.  Like I said, we wanted our own identity:  "It's not pretty...but it's Baltimore."

And a whole city getting laid can only go so far.  Take the Red Sox finally winning the WS.  Their fans went from being perennially whiny mopes about the Curse of the Bambino to obnoxious imitations of Yankee fans.

Try it first and talk to me in the morning.  Besides, the Yankees are (legitimately) arrogant, Red Sox fans are (annoyingly) arrogant...Baltimore fans still fancy themselves as the little brother to the big brother cities of the NorthEast and feel most comfortable constantly having that chip-on-their-shoulder underdog mentality...not saying we won't be obnoxious...but we don't do arrogance well...and I take extreme offense to being lumped into the Pink-Hat-Nation. 


PETER:

With Cleveland, you guys have hope, because whether or not Haslam and Banner are "those guys"...you knew that Lerner and whoever he hired was not...

AA:

The same could be said about switching out qb's.  That's just an easier process. 

Still, knowing one wasn't going to cut it doesn't make the new guy's odds any better.  Gotta pin hopes on more than that.

PB58:  You may be right...I was trying to be nice...

Last edited 2/7/2013 12:50 PM by PeterB58

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Posted: 2/7/2013 3:24 PM

Re: Modell misses Hall of Fame vote again 


Peter, no way was I comparing Ballmer fans with Boston or New York.  They were unsually combative in the stands (at least at old Memorial Stadium, especially on opening days), but otherwise good folk.

And I agree on the litigation.  Cleveland basically told Art that he could give up the colors, or fight a protracted battle he didn't want and need, even if he'd win (and if nothing else, it put Cleveland politicians in a "we're fighting for our people" stance).  Even winners settle out of court if the cost/benefit doesn't work out.  And Art had enough problems with which to contend.

Anyway, knowing Art, he thought it was mighty white of himself to give it all back to the community.  Besides, the Baltimore Browns did sound a little too... urban. 

I do recall that Art approached Irsay with the idea of swapping names.  THAT went over like a lead balloon.
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