Free Trial Ad
Why Subscribe?
  • Player/Prospect News
  • Exclusive Insider Info
  • Members-Only Forums
  • Exclusive Videos
  • Subscribe Now!
InboxChat RoomChat Room (0 fans in chatroom)

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then...

Avatar

Posted: 1/24/2013 12:24 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



Gary Reents wrote:
Randy was a lifelong Browns fan. Haslam was a part owner of the Steelers. Randy wanted to bring a winner for his dad. Haslam wants to be one of 32 in the world. 

There is nothing there that strongly suggests one is more determined than the other. The only way to tell is look at what they do. And as I said, they did pretty much the same things.

H
Randy took on what was asked of him reluctantly for his dad and family.  He was never fully vested or comfortable with it.  He failed and then bailed as soon as his inheritance agreement allowed for it.  Haslam doesn't need the NFL.  He WANTS it badly.  His goal from any source is full commitment and involvement in all he does.  Even if he fails his motive and personal involvement Trumps Randy period.

Haslam has evidence of building with success.  What has Randy built verses inheritated?  I can pointo to his failures, can you point to his successes?

G
I saw that. First Energy Stadium. Randy also kept ticket prices constant when other teams were routinely raising theirs. He didn't raise them yearly like many other teams did. We'll judge any changes Haslam makes once he actually makes a few and isn't just studying what he might do. 

H
When you don't spend on the team like Randy did its a little easier right?  Look at our FA moves and the millions he saved by making us non competitive.  Was the economy better or worse when Randy took over?  Who has the bigger piggy bank?  How could he have raised prices based on the shite given to the fans year after year?

G
Based on what he's done so far...not seeing any enhancements to the fan experience yet.

H
He hasn't even experienced his first draft yet and yer asking this or finish building his FO?  Maybe you should have been this hard on Randy?

G
Randy did not hire Merletti. Carmen Policy got Lew Merletti. Carmen, the president the NFL helped Al find. I sense a theme here. Carmen Policy, the last little napolean with an ego the size of SF Bay.
 
H
No Randy hired one failure after another.  Falling in love and buying into whatever was whispered into his ear because of being inept himself.  Giving to much power time after time only having himself 'try'' to hold them accountable.  Once it blew up beyond repair he found the time in his busy billionaire life to do it all over again and again.  

G
Ah. Randy sold gate names and left the name the same. Al wanted it that way. Randy loved his dad and did what al wanted. We'll see with this stunning new name and the possible addition of...gasp....wifi...whether that justifies a healthy increase in ticket prices.

H
How do you know what Al wanted in regard to ticket prices or stadium naming rights?  Now, most sons do love their fathers, even Haslam which also has nothing to do with this discussion.  IF anything, shame on Randy for taking his inheritance and letting it become the joke of the NFL.  Randy has insured a legacy for himself and his beloved father alright and not a good one.  Once of, inept owners taking a proud and respected franchise to its knees regardless of how hard the fans fought to keep it.  Oh, and what might happening with additional revenues? 

Ya think Randy didn't make up for not taking up prices when selling it for the money he charged Haslam?  You don't think the price paid by Haslam  demanded more revenue from where ever he could find it?  An area common in the NFL?  Would you prefer the fans pay it?  With the petty jab given here, take comfort that with as low as the bar was set by Randy it won't be hard for Haslam to improves things.

G
Ah. Changing the uniforms is considered a good thing now? For many years the fans demanded no changes. I guess I missed the sea change there.

H
How do you really know what the collective of the fans want?  My guess is they want to win more than anything now first and formost. I think Randy has taken our Tradition and turned it into a punch line for jokes.  Most want to win and becoming fresh in some areas is ok as long as winning is a part of it.  Ya might want to give Haslam more than a fraction of what ya gave Randy in time and leeway.  I mean months verses 10 plus years seems just a little unbalanced.  Just a thought.

My mother never breast-fed me. She told me she liked me as a friend - Rodney Dangerfield
 

Last edited 1/24/2013 1:18 PM by hamster

Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/24/2013 3:57 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


H
Randy took on what was asked of him reluctantly for his dad and family.  He was never fully vested or comfortable with it.  He failed and then bailed as soon as his inheritance agreement allowed for it.  Haslam doesn't need the NFL.  He WANTS it badly.  His goal from any source is full commitment and involvement in all he does.  Even if he fails his motive and personal involvement Trumps Randy period.

Haslam has evidence of building with success.  What has Randy built verses inheritated?  I can pointo to his failures, can you point to his successes? 

G:
My task is to take what you just wrote and show you where your hope interfered with your cognitive processes. You concocted a profile of a man you have never met and never observed. You don't even know someone that knows someone who knows Haslam but you have this psychological profile of him. Of course, you know none of the things you stated about Haslam's personality. He's a mystery to you and every other Browns fan because none of us has had an opportunity to observe him.

So comparing him to anyone is about the same as looking at clouds and discussing what they look like. That one's a horse! Ooooh. Look, that one is an ice cream cone. Is not! Is too!

Haslam's approach is so similar to Randy's its actually kind of scary. Perhaps Haslam will get it right where Randy did not, but that doesn't speak to "determination." It speaks possibly to capability, and/or possibly which is luckier.

Now, if that seems harsh or unfair, you're still in the midst of your Haslam man crush, because its completely correct.

H
When you don't spend on the team like Randy did its a little easier right?  Look at our FA moves and the millions he saved by making us non competitive.  Was the economy better or worse when Randy took over?  Who has the bigger piggy bank?  How could he have raised prices based on the shite given to the fans year after year?

G:
Uhmmm...I went through this five or six times over the last year. If it weren't for the fact that Phil, Holmgren and Heckert all believed in building through the draft and did not believe in expending large amounts of money on free agents...we could conclude Randy didn't spend. But there is actually way more evidence that Randy just went along with the experts he hired. 

Now, once Haslam and Banner actually SPEND some big money on FA and not just what is needed to meet the new minimum cap, THEN we will give them credit for spending more. But, let's face it. Since he got the team, the revenues have increased already. And he made sure he hired a guy with loads of experience at extracting more revenues from the stadium and the fans. 

Does that mean he's going to gouge us? No. It means one of his first acts was to sell the naming rights to make more money. 

I find I don't have to overlay some imaginary cartoon on these guys. All I have to do is state what they do and some of the...what was it Nasdaq called it...syncophants will act as if I accused him of pedophilia.

So, factually...one of Haslams first moves was the sell the rights to the stadium for a **** load of money. And, he hasn't spent a dime on free agency yet. 

We can't give him credit for spending more than the people under Randy did until...you know...he does it. 

And, there is nothing in what he has done so far that makes me think Haslam is opposed to raising ticket prices. 

H
He hasn't even experienced his first draft yet and yer asking this or finish building his FO?  Maybe you should have been this hard on Randy?

G:
Oh I didn't have to be. I usually try to counter widespread and stupid takes. In Randy's case those were painting him as a stupid, selfish, cheap, momma's boy. I just argued facts and pointed out that some conclusions made by others had no evidence to back them up. 

And I'm doing the same thing now to you and other who are idolizing someone for stuff he hasn't done yet.

Which brings us back to the fan experience. I'm not giving him credit for doing it UNTIL HE DOES IT. Try it sometime. Wait for him to do something before you give him credit for it.

H
No Randy hired one failure after another.  Falling in love and buying into whatever was whispered into his ear because of being inept himself.  Giving to much power time after time only having himself 'try'' to hold them accountable.  Once it blew up beyond repair he found the time in his busy billionaire life to do it all over again and again.   

G:
I have no problem with that description. Maybe a little at the margins, but he failed. No getting around that.

And Haslam hasn't succeed yet, either. Maybe he will. Maybe he won't. 

H
How do you know what Al wanted in regard to ticket prices or stadium naming rights?  Now, most sons do love their fathers, even Haslam which also has nothing to do with this discussion.  IF anything, shame on Randy for taking his inheritance and letting it become the joke of the NFL.  Randy has insured a legacy for himself and his beloved father alright and not a good one.  Once of, inept owners taking a proud and respected franchise to its knees regardless of how hard the fans fought to keep it.  Oh, and what might happening with additional revenues?  

G:
Actually, it was Art that took a proud franchise to its knees. The Lerners were just unable to bring it back. 

H:
Ya think Randy didn't make up for not taking up prices when selling it for the money he charged Haslam?  You don't think the price paid by Haslam  demanded more revenue from where ever he could find it?  An area common in the NFL?  Would you prefer the fans pay it?  With the petty jab given here, take comfort that with as low as the bar was set by Randy it won't be hard for Haslam to improves things.

G:
You seem to be upset. Are you upset? Just because I don't fall down on my knees and worship at the feet of Haslam? I'm just stating facts.

What Haslam has done so far is the exact same method that Randy used. He talked to the same owners. He got a President at the suggestion of the NFL. He hired his coach first then hired his GM. Same exact steps that Randy took Exact same steps in the exact same order.

Only thing different, really is Randy got the coach he wanted and Haslam missed out on Kelly and Saban...and Gruden wouldn't consider it as long as Banner was here.

But, Haslam hired a coordinator and promoted him to HC just like Randy did, although Romeo was more highly regarded than Chud. 

H
How do you really know what the collective of the fans want?  My guess is they want to win more than anything now first and formost. I think Randy has taken our Tradition and turned it into a punch line for jokes.  Most want to win and becoming fresh in some areas is ok as long as winning is a part of it.  Ya might want to give Haslam more than a fraction of what ya gave Randy in time and leeway.  I mean months verses 10 plus years seems just a little unbalanced.  Just a thought.

G:
I don't pretend to speak for the fans. I'm just relating the reaction I've always seen when the idea was brought up before. I think Aardvark expressed it quite well.  I think many are determined to insist that Haslam will be a winner regardless of what he does or says. Actually, I know that's true because Haslam has already done more to alienate the fan base than Randy did in 10 years. Some notice and don't like it, some fit it to their delusion and decide its a brilliant move as evidenced by the fact Haslam did it.

To some whatever Haslam does is great because that's all Haslam would do. Kind of a sad to see, especially in older fans. Such desperation

Last edited 1/24/2013 4:13 PM by Gary Reents

Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/24/2013 5:30 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



Gary Reents wrote:  

G:
My task is to take what you just wrote and show you where your hope interfered with your cognitive processes. You concocted a profile of a man you have never met and never observed. You don't even know someone that knows someone who knows Haslam but you have this psychological profile of him. Of course, you know none of the things you stated about Haslam's personality. He's a mystery to you and every other Browns fan because none of us has had an opportunity to observe him.

H
LIke you we do with what he have and go for there.  Coming from somone who will often create a Novel from a paragraph I'm suprised you come with this.

G
So comparing him to anyone is about the same as looking at clouds and discussing what they look like. That one's a horse! Ooooh. Look, that one is an ice cream cone. Is not! Is too!

H
Now, Now Mr. Stone errrr.... Gary.

G
Haslam's approach is so similar to Randy's its actually kind of scary. Perhaps Haslam will get it right where Randy did not, but that doesn't speak to "determination." It speaks possibly to capability, and/or possibly which is luckier.

H
Not really the same.  We now have an experienced Pres & GM whether you like them or not.  We have a first time HC but surrounded with proven experience in Norv & Horton, not to mention our special teams coach.  Took Randy ONLY 10 years to try a combo close to this.

G
Now, if that seems harsh or unfair, you're still in the midst of your Haslam man crush, because its completely correct.

H
Believe me, that won't leave a mark.  "Man Crush"? Lol.... I openly acknowledge that Haslam might fall flat on his face.  What I don't ignore is Randy sucked as an owner and Haslam is already ahead of him in his approach period.  Aside from a better balanced FO, he wants to be involved, take on the accountablity and questions and not hide from the press while pursing his other ventures.  The only Man Crush I've seen is you with Randy or Mangini.  Both sucked and failed, hopefully this isn't a pattern for you with men.

G:
Uhmmm...I went through this five or six times over the last year. If it weren't for the fact that Phil, Holmgren and Heckert all believed in building through the draft and did not believe in expending large amounts of money on free agents...we could conclude Randy didn't spend. But there is actually way more evidence that Randy just went along with the experts he hired. 

H
How much money do you want to put on Haslam waiting for that to all happen again?  Randy at ANY time could have said "we can still win more if we put more talent on the field e.g. FA).  He didn't have to try and build through FA but demanded more done to show progress.  Great excuss though.  I'm sure Randy used it from time to time.

G
Now, once Haslam and Banner actually SPEND some big money on FA and not just what is needed to meet the new minimum cap, THEN we will give them credit for spending more. But, let's face it. Since he got the team, the revenues have increased already. And he made sure he hired a guy with loads of experience at extracting more revenues from the stadium and the fans. 

H
So?  You mean he is also in this to make money? So until he is given some time lets see before the petty attack.  Oh, and just to spend isn't evidence.  Lets see if he is willing to spend in making the team better not just to spend.

G
Does that mean he's going to gouge us? No. It means one of his first acts was to sell the naming rights to make more money. 

H
Yep, thats what a good buisness man would do after spending the kind of coin he did for the Team.  He didn't have a daddy lay the team in his lap.

G
I find I don't have to overlay some imaginary cartoon on these guys. All I have to do is state what they do and some of the...what was it Nasdaq called it...syncophants will act as if I accused him of pedophilia.

H
Well, aint that all dandy of ya.  You have written enough funny books here to wow Marvel.  Lets not pretend not.  We all have authored stories and illustrations while posting here at times.

G
So, factually...one of Haslams first moves was the sell the rights to the stadium for a **** load of money. And, he hasn't spent a dime on free agency yet. 

H
See, you can draw cartoons.  The guy hasn't even finished the FO, we haven't had any time for evaluations from BRAND NEW hires.  Hell, even the Super Bowl as yet to be played but he should be spending on FA?  Funny books need funny stories I guess?

G
We can't give him credit for spending more than the people under Randy did until...you know...he does it. 

And, there is nothing in what he has done so far that makes me think Haslam is opposed to raising ticket prices. 

H
See above and ticket prices?  Maybe.  So?  Lets see the product before we judge the cost whatever that 'might' be.

G:
Oh I didn't have to be. I usually try to counter widespread and stupid takes. In Randy's case those were painting him as a stupid, selfish, cheap, momma's boy. I just argued facts and pointed out that some conclusions made by others had no evidence to back them up. 

H
So you paint your own cartoon in opposition to others and call it something else?  Here let me paint mine again so as not to be confused with others.  Nice guy.  Kind of like Elmer Fudd.  "might' be good as some things but terrible at the NFL thing.  Never qualified or 'personally' interested enough to own a team.  Did it out of love for daddy and family. 

G
And I'm doing the same thing now to you and other who are idolizing someone for stuff he hasn't done yet.

Which brings us back to the fan experience. I'm not giving him credit for doing it UNTIL HE DOES IT. Try it sometime. Wait for him to do something before you give him credit for it.

H
Not idolizing as stated.  Just not burying him for moves like Banner or Lombardi until I see the results.  Fully aware he might fail, which would be the ONLY similarity to Randy.

G:
I have no problem with that description. Maybe a little at the margins, but he failed. No getting around that.

And Haslam hasn't succeed yet, either. Maybe he will. Maybe he won't. 

H
There ya go grasshopper.  Stay with me and learnpirate

G:
Actually, it was Art that took a proud franchise to its knees. The Lerners were just unable to bring it back. 

H
That was short lived.  How many YEARS did Randy have to build a team?  The blame falls on Randy period.  See, most who are abused by men don't see it until a few years after the abuse.  You will evenutally come around.  I'm pullin for ya.

G:
You seem to be upset. Are you upset? Just because I don't fall down on my knees and worship at the feet of Haslam? I'm just stating facts.

H
Nope again.  I'm upset that you keep falling down on yer knees for Randy and hang another man before he is proven guilty.

H
What Haslam has done so far is the exact same method that Randy used. He talked to the same owners. He got a President at the suggestion of the NFL. He hired his coach first then hired his GM. Same exact steps that Randy took Exact same steps in the exact same order.

G
Since every combination in the NFL has been tried so?  Matter of fact, Randy failed soooooooooooo many times he was personaly able to try every combination.

H
Only thing different, really is Randy got the coach he wanted and Haslam missed out on Kelly and Saban...and Gruden wouldn't consider it as long as Banner was here.

G
I just spit up on the screen reading this one?  Butch?  Crennel?  Mangini?  Shurmur?  OMG, how did that all turn outeek1  So who got Sabin?  Don't say others didn't want him.  How about Gruden? Oh, thats right.  Not to many wanted him.  Kelly?  Yep, we should have gone coachless hoping he would come back after turning away from all teams.  Pssss....  Eagles didn't get him, he came back after they were franticly looking elsewhere.  Gee Gary, even for you this is crazy talk.

H
But, Haslam hired a coordinator and promoted him to HC just like Randy did, although Romeo was more highly regarded than Chud. 

G
But Haslam has surrounded him with experience.  Haslam didn't give him ubber powers like Randy did others.  Oh, and that last statement is a joke.  Crennel was passed over more than a speed bump at Wallmart by team after team for years.  He just validated why AGAIN in KC.

G:
I don't pretend to speak for the fans. I'm just relating the reaction I've always seen when the idea was brought up before. I think Aardvark expressed it quite well.  I think many are determined to insist that Haslam will be a winner regardless of what he does or says. Actually, I know that's true because Haslam has already done more to alienate the fan base than Randy did in 10 years. Some notice and don't like it, some fit it to their delusion and decide its a brilliant move as evidenced by the fact Haslam did it.

H
I haven't come to praisse Banner but bury Randy.....Lots of words that you can apply to another post but not mine.  If Haslam rule stop today you might be right about alienate fans but it hasn't.  Oh, and the 'fans' love Phil and hated Collins.  Where did that get them?

G
To some whatever Haslam does is great because that's all Haslam would do. Kind of a sad to see, especially in older fans. Such desperation

H
Maybe do some.  Point em out sometime.  Yer POV is set.  You will bang on Haslam for every mistake (which he will make his share).  You will find excusses for Randy on going.  Once you start 'your' process it can't end.  In the words of Bruce Hornsby "That's just the way it is"

My mother never breast-fed me. She told me she liked me as a friend - Rodney Dangerfield
 

Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/24/2013 6:58 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



H

Not really the same.  We now have an experienced Pres & GM whether you like them or not.  We have a first time HC but surrounded with proven experience in Norv & Horton, not to mention our special teams coach.  Took Randy ONLY 10 years to try a combo close to this.

G:
The NFL suggested Collins, Randy got Collins. The NFL suggested Banner, Haslam got Banner. Same.

Randy and Collins hired Romeo then hired Phil. Haslam and Banner hired Chud, then officially hired Lombardi.

The only real difference in method was Randy didn't lie about any of his hires for months.

H
Believe me, that won't leave a mark.  "Man Crush"? Lol.... I openly acknowledge that Haslam might fall flat on his face.  What I don't ignore is Randy sucked as an owner and Haslam is already ahead of him in his approach period.  Aside from a better balanced FO, he wants to be involved, take on the accountablity and questions and not hide from the press while pursing his other ventures.  The only Man Crush I've seen is you with Randy or Mangini.  Both sucked and failed, hopefully this isn't a pattern for you with men.

G:
The mancrush leads you to believe Haslam is ahead of Randy. You don't know until you see how they do. Step by step, the same process. Different people so there can always be a different result. Assuming a better one is just a product of the man crush.

H
How much money do you want to put on Haslam waiting for that to all happen again?  Randy at ANY time could have said "we can still win more if we put more talent on the field e.g. FA).  He didn't have to try and build through FA but demanded more done to show progress.  Great excuss though.  I'm sure Randy used it from time to time.

G:
No excuse at all. Randy decided to listen to the people he hired, the experts. His decision. And perhaps you'll be correct and if Banner decides to go slow, Haslam will goose him to spend, spend, spend. 

But its the product of your man crush that you believe you know he's going to do that.  You hope he will, but none of us know that he will.  What Haslam SAID was that Banner was in charge of the football ops. And if Banner decides that he's just going to extend contracts, sign some his own players and dabble in B level free agents...who knows if he'll do as he says he will do or do what you say he'll do.

H
So?  You mean he is also in this to make money? So until he is given some time lets see before the petty attack.  Oh, and just to spend isn't evidence.  Lets see if he is willing to spend in making the team better not just to spend.

G:
Let's see what he does. That's the primary point. Lets see what he does instead of assuming what he'll do and the spout off as if he's already done it. If he spend on FA and spends big, not just a few journeymen signings, then he's done it. Until he does it, he doesn't get credit for doing it. 

Seems pretty reasonable. Not sure why that upsets you so.

H
Yep, thats what a good buisness man would do after spending the kind of coin he did for the Team.  He didn't have a daddy lay the team in his lap.

G:
Al didn't. Jimmy Bob Haslam 3 would have to go a long way to be the businessman Al Lerner was. Al started from nada and built an financial empire. Jimmy Bob took his daddy's company and built it up to be the premier set of truck stops in the country. 

But your man crush has you believing he's Thomas Crowne.  

While we have every indication that Jimmy is a smart man and knows truck drivers like the back of his hand, Al was a damn good businessman and he didn't rename the stadium for money.

H
Well, aint that all dandy of ya.  You have written enough funny books here to wow Marvel.  Lets not pretend not.  We all have authored stories and illustrations while posting here at times.

G:
While admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery, I don't think you've realized yet the extent of the man love you have for Jimmy. 

He's just a guy, Ham. Just a guy. He's a bright, rich guy in a league full of bright rich guys. He has about as much chance of succeeding as any other new owner.

All of them are serious about their franchise. All of them. They have way, way too much money tied up into the NFL to be otherwise. So the Browns got a bright southern gentleman that made billions in an unrelated industry and he paired himself up to a guy who always wanted to be in charge of the football operations of a football team. And together they lied to the fans and media for months and hired someone most fans and most local media despise and mistrust. 

They missed out on their hot targets. Seem to have hired a coordinator that has a reasonable chance of being a good headcoach. 

Everything else remains to be seen.

H
See, you can draw cartoons.  The guy hasn't even finished the FO, we haven't had any time for evaluations from BRAND NEW hires.  Hell, even the Super Bowl as yet to be played but he should be spending on FA?  Funny books need funny stories I guess?

G:
Hear that? Did you hear that swooshing sound? That was the point going right over your head.  

I don't expect him to get any FA yet. But you've already given him credit for being more aggressive in FA than Randy. Again, a product of that man crush you have. Maybe by now you're beginning to realize it. 

Haslam/Banner may be more aggressive and they may not be. We have to wait and see. And if they are, then we make that observation and understand it to be fact. 

H
See above and ticket prices?  Maybe.  So?  Lets see the product before we judge the cost whatever that 'might' be.

G:
No "so."   For all you know, Haslam may be the greediest SOB in the NFL. He could end up being the most generous. We just don't know.

All we have is what he's done. And what he has done is nothing to get excited about. And he's done nothing that gives anyone a reason to trust him either. There's more reason to mistrust him than actually trust him after the crap they pulled with Lombardi.

H
So you paint your own cartoon in opposition to others and call it something else?  Here let me paint mine again so as not to be confused with others.  Nice guy.  Kind of like Elmer Fudd.  "might' be good as some things but terrible at the NFL thing.  Never qualified or 'personally' interested enough to own a team.  Did it out of love for daddy and family.  

G:
Nah. I don't use cartoons. When I make what seems to be an extravagant statement about someone, I bring a rationale and evidence to back it up. Yours in this case is "He ain't Randy so he's gonna...."

Pitiful.

H
Not idolizing as stated.  Just not burying him for moves like Banner or Lombardi until I see the results.  Fully aware he might fail, which would be the ONLY similarity to Randy.

G:
As I already said, these two may do fine. Maybe better than fine, great. But they come with baggage and history. And that history tells us to watch carefully and trust little.

Maybe Lombardi changed. Maybe Lombardi believes he's changed. Time will tell. But its just another risk that's added onto an inherently risky venture. Each additional risk increases the liklihood of failure.

The right way to develop a profile so you don't create a cartoon is watch how people act. And my point in all these threads is Haslam and Banner are building a collection of moves here that are...suspect on several levels.

Objectively, they are suspect on several levels. So our profile, while incomplete, isn't heading the way we would have originally wanted it. We're here saying..."Well, it can still work out great." and "Maybe he's changed!" And hoping that Haslam will act to change if he sees Lombardi or Banner or both acting like they have in the past.



Reply | Quote
  • mes78
  • Junkyard Terror
  • 2382 posts this site

Posted: 1/24/2013 8:12 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


---------------------------------------------
--- Gary Reents wrote:

H
Randy took on what was asked of him reluctantly for his dad and family.  He was never fully vested or comfortable with it.  He failed and then bailed as soon as his inheritance agreement allowed for it.  Haslam doesn't need the NFL.  He WANTS it badly.  His goal from any source is full commitment and involvement in all he does.  Even if he fails his motive and personal involvement Trumps Randy period.

Haslam has evidence of building with success.  What has Randy built verses inheritated?  I can pointo to his failures, can you point to his successes? 

G:
My task is to take what you just wrote and show you where your hope interfered with your cognitive processes. You concocted a profile of a man you have never met and never observed. You don't even know someone that knows someone who knows Haslam but you have this psychological profile of him. Of course, you know none of the things you stated about Haslam's personality. He's a mystery to you and every other Browns fan because none of us has had an opportunity to observe him.

So comparing him to anyone is about the same as looking at clouds and discussing what they look like. That one's a horse! Ooooh. Look, that one is an ice cream cone. Is not! Is too!

Haslam's approach is so similar to Randy's its actually kind of scary. Perhaps Haslam will get it right where Randy did not, but that doesn't speak to "determination." It speaks possibly to capability, and/or possibly which is luckier.

Now, if that seems harsh or unfair, you're still in the midst of your Haslam man crush, because its completely correct.

MES: Funny, you've done the exact same thing from the outset of this thread. You've deduced from your trusted sources, filled in the blanks yourself, and have created complete characterizations of people you've never met or never observed outside the media camera. As a result, you've hypothesized,

"The reason I'm focused on the FO right now is because a consistently winning franchise has to be consistent and stable. I think the FO is the most important part of achieving such an organization. A FO headed by liars and people who disrespect the fans and media can use consistent and stable business practices, its just not as likely...imo. Such people won't stop with lying to us and the media, they'll lie and disrespect other people in the NFL and that ultimately will work against them."

And this nugget, " My read of people like Banner and Lombardi is they don't respect other people's opinions much unless it coincides with theirs. So anyone on the roster that they had doubts about before they were acquired is on shaky ground"

(by the way, that is not exclusive to these 2 apparent a-holes, it's happened several time here, and in other places where teams perennially lose, but that's besides the point).

That sounds an awful like you've spotted a cloud, maybe one that looks like a pot calling the kettle black.

Plus, you've bought into the whole Banner/ Little Napolean characterization. Tell me, do you know this to be true? Have you met Joe Banner? If your sources are outside the media, I'd like to know that.


H
He hasn't even experienced his first draft yet and yer asking this or finish building his FO?  Maybe you should have been this hard on Randy?

G:
Oh I didn't have to be. I usually try to counter widespread and stupid takes. In Randy's case those were painting him as a stupid, selfish, cheap, momma's boy. I just argued facts and pointed out that some conclusions made by others had no evidence to back them up. 

And I'm doing the same thing now to you and other who are idolizing someone for stuff he hasn't done yet.

Which brings us back to the fan experience. I'm not giving him credit for doing it UNTIL HE DOES IT. Try it sometime. Wait for him to do something before you give him credit for it.

MES: I agree credit shouldn't be given until its done. I would add that blame should not be predicted prematurely. You seem to live up to half of this. In addition, when it comes to Randy Bonaparte you seem to downplay the complete cluster of the Lerner era or quickly spread the blame that is due on other people - Holmgren, Mangini, Savage, etc...

You insinuate that Randy did what he could do - talked to people for example, but just couldn't get it right for some reason.

Yet, the man literally quit as soon as he could, and it's hard to see he lacked determination? It was 11 years. That's it. And who knows how soon he would've sold had he been allowed. Yet, Randy was determined.

H
No Randy hired one failure after another.  Falling in love and buying into whatever was whispered into his ear because of being inept himself.  Giving to much power time after time only having himself 'try'' to hold them accountable.  Once it blew up beyond repair he found the time in his busy billionaire life to do it all over again and again.   

G:
I have no problem with that description. Maybe a little at the margins, but he failed. No getting around that.

And Haslam hasn't succeed yet, either. Maybe he will. Maybe he won't. 

MES: True. Time will tell about Haslam's ownership. It's clear some in the media, and some around these parts have sharpened their spears after 100 days. If only Randy Bonaparte was held to the same standard...ever. Well Grossi did and lost his job.

H
How do you know what Al wanted in regard to ticket prices or stadium naming rights?  Now, most sons do love their fathers, even Haslam which also has nothing to do with this discussion.  IF anything, shame on Randy for taking his inheritance and letting it become the joke of the NFL.  Randy has insured a legacy for himself and his beloved father alright and not a good one.  Once of, inept owners taking a proud and respected franchise to its knees regardless of how hard the fans fought to keep it.  Oh, and what might happening with additional revenues?  

G:
Actually, it was Art that took a proud franchise to its knees. The Lerners were just unable to bring it back. 

MES: Neglect is hurtful too. The soccer team was Randy's favorite child, the Browns were step sisters.

H:
Ya think Randy didn't make up for not taking up prices when selling it for the money he charged Haslam?  You don't think the price paid by Haslam  demanded more revenue from where ever he could find it?  An area common in the NFL?  Would you prefer the fans pay it?  With the petty jab given here, take comfort that with as low as the bar was set by Randy it won't be hard for Haslam to improves things.

G:
You seem to be upset. Are you upset? Just because I don't fall down on my knees and worship at the feet of Haslam? I'm just stating facts.

What Haslam has done so far is the exact same method that Randy used. He talked to the same owners. He got a President at the suggestion of the NFL. He hired his coach first then hired his GM. Same exact steps that Randy took Exact same steps in the exact same order.

Only thing different, really is Randy got the coach he wanted and Haslam missed out on Kelly and Saban...and Gruden wouldn't consider it as long as Banner was here.

But, Haslam hired a coordinator and promoted him to HC just like Randy did, although Romeo was more highly regarded than Chud. 

MES:

What?!?!? Randy took over in 2002, Butch Davis 2nd year. He kept Policy until April 2004, extended Davis in 2004 after a 5-11 season and 24-27 overall after 3 seasons, and then brought in John Collins whom had never worked for a real NFL team as a FO president.

This is the exact opposite of Haslam. For it to be the same, Holmgren would stay on for a year and a half, Shurmur would be extended for an additional 2 years to his currently existing contract after next season, and then Haslam would have to hire an NFL business exec with no experience working with an NFL team.

I'm not sure my understanding of same is equal to yours.

H
How do you really know what the collective of the fans want?  My guess is they want to win more than anything now first and formost. I think Randy has taken our Tradition and turned it into a punch line for jokes.  Most want to win and becoming fresh in some areas is ok as long as winning is a part of it.  Ya might want to give Haslam more than a fraction of what ya gave Randy in time and leeway.  I mean months verses 10 plus years seems just a little unbalanced.  Just a thought.

G:
I don't pretend to speak for the fans. I'm just relating the reaction I've always seen when the idea was brought up before. I think Aardvark expressed it quite well.  I think many are determined to insist that Haslam will be a winner regardless of what he does or says. Actually, I know that's true because Haslam has already done more to alienate the fan base than Randy did in 10 years. Some notice and don't like it, some fit it to their delusion and decide its a brilliant move as evidenced by the fact Haslam did it.

To some whatever Haslam does is great because that's all Haslam would do. Kind of a sad to see, especially in older fans. Such desperation


MES: It works both ways. Some are determined to insist that Haslam, Banner, and Lombardi are ready to screw the pooch because they found a loophole in the system for talking to people in the league while they are currently employed by other teams, and thus did not tell the truth. Or in your words, "As far as I can see things are pretty set now. Now we just get to see whether they begin deconstructing the roster. Personally, I think they will. My read of people like Banner and Lombardi is they don't respect other people's opinions much unless it coincides with theirs. So anyone on the roster that they had doubts about before they were acquired is on shaky ground."

You can keep handing me a bag of s*** and tell me they're roses, but I'm not going to get the vase ready because you say so. I think all that's pretty set is your take is as biased and agenda driven as the next.
---------------------------------------------

Last edited 1/24/2013 8:26 PM by mes78

Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/24/2013 8:25 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


No. I have not constructed cartoons of people.

Banner has a history. I use what has been reported of him. He has been called a "Little Napolean" and he is known to meddle.  Those are reports from several sources.

Lombardi's history is well known. He has to prove he's not what he's done now. 

And the sources you dismiss has been reporting Lombardi was in the picture for months now and...look, here he is.

Haslam is a complete unknown to me. Other than he made big bucks on fancy truck stops I know few facts about him. Which is why I'm laughing at people who tell me he's this that and t he other thing because they know as little as I do.

What I know is this man has bought this team, renamed the stadium for big money, lied to the media for weeks, and so did Banner, and decided to change the uniforms.

Now you and other can tell me you don't care about any of that, you just care about winning. Fine. If that's how you view it that's certainly your right to do that. 

But don't be trying to sell that this is what a winner does or a true businessman or any other crap that's been slung around here.

So far, as far as anyone can tell,Haslam isn't anything special.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/24/2013 8:37 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



Gary Reents wrote: No. I have not constructed cartoons of people.

Banner has a history. I use what has been reported of him. He has been called a "Little Napolean" and he is known to meddle.  Those are reports from several sources.

Nope, no cartoons here. So what if Banner aided Lurie in building Philadelphia into a perennial NFC East powerhouse. Sources don't have an agenda, they're not influenced by Jeff Lurie or Howie Roseman or Andy Reid. No, sir, they only speak God's Honest Truth.

Up next, Tom and Jerry in 'George Kokinis, GM'.

Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/24/2013 9:01 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



Gary Reents wrote:
G:
The NFL suggested Collins, Randy got Collins. The NFL suggested Banner, Haslam got Banner. Same.

Randy and Collins hired Romeo then hired Phil. Haslam and Banner hired Chud, then officially hired Lombardi.

The only real difference in method was Randy didn't lie about any of his hires for months.

H
Collins 'never' worked for any NFL team.  He sold advertizing.  No comparision.  Phil never had the experience for what he was given, Crennel too.  We also had a first time OC & DC.  Haslam has beaten ole Jammies hands down in putting together his first FO period.

G:
The mancrush leads you to believe Haslam is ahead of Randy. You don't know until you see how they do. Step by step, the same process. Different people so there can always be a different result. Assuming a better one is just a product of the man crush.

H
Nope, facts do.  I explained above part but not all.  Just because they all had teeth doesn't make them the same.  Do one knows the outcome or is predicting it.  All I'm saying is we know Randy failed and Haslam has put us in a better position to succeed.   Facts are this FO is FAR better qualified and proven.


G:
No excuse at all. Randy decided to listen to the people he hired, the experts. His decision. And perhaps you'll be correct and if Banner decides to go slow, Haslam will goose him to spend, spend, spend. 

H
None of this helps yer cause.  If he hired a ball boy for the GM should he have listened to him too?  Randy did a horrible job giving to many people a job that they never had experience at and all at once.  There was never a system of checks and balances with accoutablity and experience to help newbies grow into thier job titles.  He gave to much power that was unwarrented and was gulible to what they said.

G
But its the product of your man crush that you believe you know he's going to do that.  You hope he will, but none of us know that he will.  What Haslam SAID was that Banner was in charge of the football ops. And if Banner decides that he's just going to extend contracts, sign some his own players and dabble in B level free agents...who knows if he'll do as he says he will do or do what you say he'll do.

H
So without knowing yerself you are making up stories of what might be? Its your man crush that led you to believe Randy was doing it the same and even better.  Man crush, Man crush, Man crush, Nah nah nah nahhhhh 

G:
Let's see what he does. That's the primary point. Lets see what he does instead of assuming what he'll do and the spout off as if he's already done it. If he spend on FA and spends big, not just a few journeymen signings, then he's done it. Until he does it, he doesn't get credit for doing it. 

Seems pretty reasonable. Not sure why that upsets you so.

H
No one is spouting off and saying anything is a done deal.  Upset?  Please....I like what I've seen so far with Chud, Norv,Horton and special teams.  I like he let Kelly walk for a number of reasons.  I'm willing to give both Banner & your boogeyman Lombardi time to see if they are competent or not.  No one said (and you really know it) that Haslam can't fail or make mistakes that will be called out later.  You keep saying it as if it wll stick but its not.    


G:
Al didn't. Jimmy Bob Haslam 3 would have to go a long way to be the businessman Al Lerner was. Al started from nada and built an financial empire. Jimmy Bob took his daddy's company and built it up to be the premier set of truck stops in the country.

H
And Randy took his daddys team down the toilet even more than daddy while doing nothing else anyone can point to.  Haslam wins again..... 

G
But your man crush has you believing he's Thomas Crowne.  

H
While your man crush has proven Randy to be Thomas Clown regardless of tap dancing around it.

G
While we have every indication that Jimmy is a smart man and knows truck drivers like the back of his hand, Al was a damn good businessman and he didn't rename the stadium for money.

H
Yep got to love those credit card people right?  They know hard work.  To bad none of those smarts you are saying Al had, never helped Randy.  Thought you said ole Al started the flush of our team?  Guess he is the devil when you need to protect Randy but a Saint when needing to 'try' and bury Haslam.

G:
While admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery, I don't think you've realized yet the extent of the man love you have for Jimmy.

H
Physician heal thy self..... Are those Randy's jammies I see under your shirt?

G
He's just a guy, Ham. Just a guy. He's a bright, rich guy in a league full of bright rich guys. He has about as much chance of succeeding as any other new owner.

H
Yep and I hope he does.  I've got a limited time on earth now and ole Randy who was the dumb and not so bright rich guy wasted 10+ years of my life. Rich people come in all sizes and smarts. 

G
All of them are serious about their franchise. All of them. They have way, way too much money tied up into the NFL to be otherwise. So the Browns got a bright southern gentleman that made billions in an unrelated industry and he paired himself up to a guy who always wanted to be in charge of the football operations of a football team. And together they lied to the fans and media for months and hired someone most fans and most local media despise and mistrust. 

H
Since I don't know but you want to believe it, ok.  I really don't care if he lied.  I really don't care if he hired an unpopular person.  I'm sure Randy spun things at times.  Maybe not to the degree but he most like did.  Most NFL types and owners do.  Randy also showed what happens when you let fans make decsions. (See Phil Savage and other knee jerk reactions).  All I care about is winning for once.  Having a team thats fun to watch and respected rather than being the butt of all jokes.  We have now succeeded to make the Bengals respectful due to Randy's watch.  Pathetic.  If Haslams moves backfires I'll have no problem pointing them out but not until something is seen.

I pulled for Randy at first.  I pulled for Savage at first.  I pulled for Holmgren so givng a benifit of doubt at first isn't new or wrong.  Time not your created boogeymen will tell the tale.

G
They missed out on their hot targets. Seem to have hired a coordinator that has a reasonable chance of being a good headcoach. 

Everything else remains to be seen.

H
Sorry, you can believe they missed.  I say they let go after seeing he wasn't committed.  You can't make a girl love ya sometimes no matter what you own or promise Eagles.  Kelly got his team.  

G:
Nah. I don't use cartoons. When I make what seems to be an extravagant statement about someone, I bring a rationale and evidence to back it up. Yours in this case is "He ain't Randy so he's gonna...."

H
Nah back at ya.  Yer human and wrong at times, you just haven't figured it out. 

G
Pitiful.

H
Sad for you.  Its one thing to think others are inferer but worse to think you are setting the bar others can't reach.  Must be good to be you (unfortunately only in yer head)

G
Maybe Lombardi changed. Maybe Lombardi believes he's changed. Time will tell. But its just another risk that's added onto an inherently risky venture. Each additional risk increases the liklihood of failure.

H
Don't disagree.  I only balance it out with the good in Chud, Norv, Horton and the other guy
Haven't seen any bad moves yet when it comes to what will be seen on the field.

G
The right way to develop a profile so you don't create a cartoon is watch how people act. And my point in all these threads is Haslam and Banner are building a collection of moves here that are...suspect on several levels.

H
Nope. its seen in action and results.  I like the 'actions' of what I seen in the areas mentioned so far.  All the other stuff is silly noise until the draft, pre-season and games start.  Then it all comes to the front.  I fine until it does. 

Love to keep it going but got to go for now





My mother never breast-fed me. She told me she liked me as a friend - Rodney Dangerfield
 

Reply | Quote
  • mes78
  • Junkyard Terror
  • 2382 posts this site

Posted: 1/24/2013 9:15 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 




---------------------------------------------
--- Gary Reents wrote:

No. I have not constructed cartoons of people.

Banner has a history. I use what has been reported of him. He has been called a "Little Napolean" and he is known to meddle.  Those are reports from several sources.

Lombardi's history is well known. He has to prove he's not what he's done now. 

And the sources you dismiss has been reporting Lombardi was in the picture for months now and...look, here he is.

Haslam is a complete unknown to me. Other than he made big bucks on fancy truck stops I know few facts about him. Which is why I'm laughing at people who tell me he's this that and t he other thing because they know as little as I do.

What I know is this man has bought this team, renamed the stadium for big money, lied to the media for weeks, and so did Banner, and decided to change the uniforms.

Now you and other can tell me you don't care about any of that, you just care about winning. Fine. If that's how you view it that's certainly your right to do that. 

But don't be trying to sell that this is what a winner does or a true businessman or any other crap that's been slung around here.

So far, as far as anyone can tell,Haslam isn't anything special.

---------------------------------------------
G: Page 1- "The more I think about this the more untrustworthy Haslam becomes. I never did trust Banner once I heard the reports about him, but now I feel Haslam is pretty smarmy. Afterall, he sat there and listened to Banner say that to the assembled Cleveland media and the watching and listening fans."

G: Page 5 - "Haslam is a complete unknown to me. Other than he made big bucks on fancy truck stops I know few facts about him. Which is why I'm laughing at people who tell me he's this that and t he other thing because they know as little as I do."

MES: I'm starting to laugh, now. Page 1 you start thinking, and tell me he's untrustworthy. Based on reports of lying of course, but without trying to figure out the advantages of doing this, if it's even true. Then, page 5 you know as little as I know about the man.

If A is true (Gary doesnt know dick about Haslam), then B is also true (Gary's assumptions are biased and agenda driven).

As for Banner, the Little Napolean cartoon is interesting. If he played a strong role in the building of the Eagles, then doesn't it seem to make sense for him to wield power in his next job? Also, if he was a meddling, greedy bastard then why the hard feelings by all those still in PHI? In my experience the complete incompetents get all the back slaps and well wishes when they get promoted outside the company. Nobody is mad to see those types leave. See RAC. However, someone who is competent, but chooses to leave - why that person is treated like a high school girl who dumps her avg. joe boyfriend for the star QB, she's called a slut, dirty whore who really isn't all that hot. So, portions of the media has concerns, but it's not uniform. And the facts show that Banner has hired Chud, Turner, Horton, and Lombardi. Time will tell if this so called Lil Napoleon fits the cartoon.

Now a cartoon that needs acceptance is Randy Bonaparte. The only major difference is that the real Napoleon only got 15 million in his deal, while Randy got a billion. Napoleon was a better general, but Randy was a better negotiator.
Reply | Quote