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Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then...

Posted: 1/19/2013 2:20 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Gary- "The reason I'm focused on the FO right now is because a consistently winning franchise has to be consistent and stable. I think the FO is the most important part of achieving such an organization. A FO headed by liars and people who disrespect the fans and media can use consistent and stable business practices, its just not as likely...imo. Such people won't stop with lying to us and the media, they'll lie and disrespect other people in the NFL and that ultimately will work against them."

Jerbb- I don't think you want to say only nice guys finish first, do you? There are only 2 ways a FO achieves credibility with its fans: by winning and/or taking actions which the fans believe are a step towards winning. Liars and jerks (and disliked owners in general) win, and are loved for that. See Al Davis or Jerry Jones. But they are on a precipice for as soon as they stop winning it is the same characteristics that people liked which they now get damned for. Ah...isnt the public wonderful?

But this just talks about credibility, not success. It would be nice if honesty equated success, but it doesn't. And the argument of  'who would want to come here' doesnt apply, imo. Money talks, after all.

Daddywags, I agree 100% with your take.


Edit- I would strongly recommend anyone down on Banner to read the 8-section piece written about him by a Philadelphia writer. It was linked in the OBR-sorry I dont have it. I was negative on Banner until I read it, and it definitely changed my thoughts about him. It's not a fluff piece, its really good.


Last edited 1/19/2013 2:24 PM by JERBB

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Posted: 1/21/2013 1:26 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


"But this just talks about credibility, not success. It would be nice if honesty equated success, but it doesn't. And the argument of  'who would want to come here' doesnt apply, imo. Money talks, after all."

-- Somebody probably already said this- or should have: What fans ultimately care about is the on-field record of the team. Owners and their minions might care for winning, might care for making money, might care for being in the NFL and making a splash, might care for all of the above to some degree. 

So whatever machinations occur in the power structure are dwarfed by the team record in a fan's mind. That's what counts and that's what we will see.

I hope that Haslam ultimately puts winning as the highest priority before all the other crap. Some of his moves seem okay so far, some are a puzzle so far.

But I'm not sure that reducing a new owner's first moves to A or B in an equation is always going to lead you to a solid, objective answer in the flexible and evolving (wacky?) NFL landscape. Which is too bad.

Just win, baby?

BTW- Saw some Lerner references. The Lerner record stunk. For whatever reason. Now they are gone. Old story. New guy's shot. 

Last edited 1/21/2013 1:48 PM by HeadHole

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Posted: 1/21/2013 2:22 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


HH
Saw some Lerner references. The Lerner record stunk.

H
Randy did nothing but fill a toilet bowl with turds that needed to be flushed for over 10 years.  Has to rank as one of the all time worst owners with his record.  Butch Davis, Collins, Savage, Crennel, Mangini (and his little clown Koko the GM), Holmgren & Shurmur (were better but at the end still needed to be flushed with the rest).  Heckert was his one and only and he only looked 'better' due to how low the bar was set by others.  So an owner winning the toilet bowl for over 10 years is nothing to be compared.

Spinning the truth is done more in the NFL than any Yarn Barn.  I don't care if Banner pegged Lombardi from the start.  Its his perogative.  So is the spin.  Its done ALL the time.  You really think fans are given the truth if it doesn't best serve the fans?  Pricks and degree of pricks succeed all the time whether it be in the NFL or elswhere too. 

Some even learn a lesson after time and going through different experiennces.  Not going to hang out with them or share a meal.  We got quality people regadless of the scare of "nobody will work with Banner or Lombardi".  Since that didn't work I see its on to players being to scared to come?bored1  No one here knows all of the inner workings as to really happened in the past or what is really taking place now.  Even Lane.  All dart throwing and fear mongering means little too.  You also have Koolaid being offer by both sides so choose one if you want.  If we can build a winning team I'll take even more pricks.  Winning is what its all about not baby kissing and hand shaking.  Here is some Koolaid for the other side

  http://www.ohio.com/sports/bro...-draft-1.366361

Didn't care much for the Banner & Lombardi combo either but nothing says it can't work with them. I like what we are seeing now in Chud, Norv, Horton and reupping our special teams coach.  A great mixture of proven success and youth.  Best we have had since our return imo.

The only evidence on how this team will fair is once the draft starts, pre-season in swing and at least a game or two.  Until then all we can do is wait.  Take a side but don't act like anything is for sure.  I like the coaching staff, players and what might be in both the draft and FA.  We will have more than enough data on what we got now once some comes in.

My mother never breast-fed me. She told me she liked me as a friend - Rodney Dangerfield
 

Last edited 1/21/2013 2:37 PM by hamster

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Posted: 1/21/2013 4:41 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


"Didn't care much for the Banner & Lombardi combo either but nothing says it can't work with them."

-- The record is what matters. The rest is just fodder for talk or hand-wringing. 

"Randy did nothing but fill a toilet bowl with turds that needed to be flushed for over 10 years."

-- The pre-Modell NFL record: about 104-42-  lotsa playoff appearances

The Modell era record: 252-233-10 .519 percentage-  17 play-off appearances

The Lerner era record: 68-160 .327 percentage (No ties!)- 1 play-off appearance

That's more or less in black and white. Explanations and context notwithstanding.

At the end of the day, what is really important?


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Posted: 1/22/2013 1:11 AM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


All i have to say is Lombardi better pray that **** works out for him because if this team goes 5-11 next year.. 

What i don't understand about Lombardi taking this job is why Cleveland? He has to know that he is hated here and will get ZERO slack from the fan base and the media. There isn't a place he could choose that would be less hospitable to him.. Is he really that desperate to get back into football that he is willing to walk into a situation where 1 bad decision will get him crucified?

This is the part i just don't get.. Is he completely oblivious?
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Posted: 1/22/2013 1:29 AM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



mythrand wrote: All i have to say is Lombardi better pray that **** works out for him because if this team goes 5-11 next year.. 

What i don't understand about Lombardi taking this job is why Cleveland? He has to know that he is hated here and will get ZERO slack from the fan base and the media. There isn't a place he could choose that would be less hospitable to him.. Is he really that desperate to get back into football that he is willing to walk into a situation where 1 bad decision will get him crucified?

This is the part i just don't get.. Is he completely oblivious?
It tells me what kind of faith he has in Haslam, Banner, the team and himself.  He knows that 'if' he can be part of bringing a winner to the most passionate and starved fans in the NFL he will be stripped of all wrongs in the past.  I'm sure he is also fully aware of what you just pointed out about making any wrong moves.  He also may feel he has nothing to lose.  He is hated anyway by most of our fan base.  If he fails things really don't change for him.  This is his one big chance.

For those who don't buy into him no matter what, he is going to bury himself and anything said in a positive way won't matter.   For those who have hope it's something to cling to.  Guess we will begin to see soon enough.  We have a strong enough base of players and coaches that any good or bad will be seen in the not to distant future.

My mother never breast-fed me. She told me she liked me as a friend - Rodney Dangerfield
 

Last edited 1/22/2013 1:31 AM by hamster

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Posted: 1/22/2013 10:49 AM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


"It tells me what kind of faith he has in Haslam, Banner, the team and himself."

-- That could be it. Or it could be that they offered so much money he couldn't say no. Or something else.

"We have a strong enough base of players and coaches that any good or bad will be seen in the not to distant future."

-- Once again, the record is what really counts. We'll see if the FO and the coaches can build a winning team.  What people have seen so far has delivered a mixed message, I would say. My message is mixed, at any rate.

But again, how mixed up I or anyone else is doesn't matter against the record that these various parts can put together.
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Posted: 1/22/2013 11:18 AM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Disagree on this for sure.  Nobody wanted Lomabardi but Banner.  They didn't have to make him a deal he couldn't refuse (money).  We got him cheap I bet or mid going price at best.
All he has been itching to do was get back in the NFL.  Wouldn't have taken much when it comes to money.  This is most likely his only shot back.  A few more years at ESPN/NFL network would only keep him there.

Players?  Nope again.  We have a good base BUT its critical to get it right on QB, Wr & DL.  If anything, we are close enough that any screw up will be exposed quickly.

My mother never breast-fed me. She told me she liked me as a friend - Rodney Dangerfield
 

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Posted: 1/22/2013 4:48 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


"Disagree on this for sure."

-- All of your disagreements are, of course, foolish and might be criminally insane...

No. I was channeling other POVs.

What you say might be true. I don't know who knows, but I don't know.

I agree that we have some good players. Now it is up to our new coaches and our new personnel people to put things together and produce a winning team. That is what will be seen- but can now be irrelevantly debated if that's what you want to do.

Agree?

BTW- But why would Haslam want to save a few bucks getting Lombardi unless he was a guy who was wanted in the first place? Seems dumb when you have Haslam-money. I would think they would want quality guys and be willing to spend a bit to get them. Therefore, they must see Lombardi as a good fit. Or did they have some other motivation? And does it matter over the record when all is said and done?
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