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If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then...

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Posted: 1/19/2013 11:55 AM

If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



It's become clear that Banner and Lombardi were coming here since the sale was first announced back in July. Right around that time Lombardi's name was linked with Banner as coming.  And look, here he is.

Recall the on TV behavior of his fellow sportscasters laughing and yucking as they kidded him about coming to Cleveland and Lombardi's **** eating grin.

Now, recall the PC when the firing of Shurmer and Heckert was announced.

Did Banner not tell us that they preferred hiring the head coach first so they could pair him with the correct director of personnel type?  I watched that PC...but did I imagine that? 

The more I think about this the more untrustworthy Haslam becomes. I never did trust Banner once I heard the reports about him, but now I feel Haslam is pretty smarmy. Afterall, he sat there and listened to Banner say that to the assembled Cleveland media and the watching and listening fans.

And Lombardi. He sat there yesterday and pretended like he wasn't coming all along. So while pleading he's learned and changed the bastard was lying. A bald faced lie.

I know some are surprised and upset at my consistently negative attitude. All I can tell you is I don't believe I've suddenly shucked takes based on logic and evidence. I've been doing this online stuff for 20 years now and over that time you find sources that are rock solid. All I'm doing is relying on that source right now and so far he's been rock solid again. From there I can just think it through.

The reason I'm focused on the FO right now is because a consistently winning franchise has to be consistent and stable. I think the FO is the most important part of achieving such an organization. A FO headed by liars and people who disrespect the fans and media can use consistent and stable business practices, its just not as likely...imo. Such people won't stop with lying to us and the media, they'll lie and disrespect other people in the NFL and that ultimately will work against them.

As far as I can see things are pretty set now. Now we just get to see whether they begin deconstructing the roster. Personally, I think they will. My read of people like Banner and Lombardi is they don't respect other people's opinions much unless it coincides with theirs. So anyone on the roster that they had doubts about before they were acquired is on shaky ground.

Last edited 1/19/2013 12:05 PM by Gary Reents

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Posted: 1/19/2013 1:09 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Gary I always enjoy your thoughtful posts. I just hope you are wrong on this one and only time will tell. For me, after 50 years of being infected with the Browns virus, all I care about is winning. There are many successful businesses where the top echelon peeps are a$$holes and schemers etc but yet the companies thrive. Im sure there are many that dont however. Hopefully this regime is the former, maybe like the Raiders in AD's prime in the 80's and 90's where everyone in the league thought AD was a lunatic/jerkoff. All I know is we have no choice but to watch, wait, and see what happens. One thing I think will be a key indicator for me is what they do with the scouting dept after the draft, if they dump them for their own cronies I will be disheartened once again I guess. But for me it will all ride on next seasons results. They do seem to have put together a respectable coaching staff so there is that going for them
LG
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Posted: 1/19/2013 1:17 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


This is life and just think how Tom Heckert feels.

He spent three years building this team and it is about to be thrown away.

He knew the day Banner's name was mentioned, he was done.

The results of his work are incomplete and there is a strong chance we will never know the true conclusion.

My opinion is not to the level of some members, but, anybody can imagine his frustration.

Anyone doing three years of hard work and not getting the benefit of seeing the best results of his efforts.

Tom Heckert's fans can pick out a FB or another player and say, see, he is not going to be missed.  Another fan can say, he did not spend $100 million on DE Williams, he failed at free agency he was a bust.

The majority of our members who know, look at the roster and see a promising roster and look at the $48 million cap money and have to smile and wonder what he would have done with it.

I am not going to say Lombardi is an idoit, he passed has been detailed consistently throughout articles and threads on this forum.  Some say, turn the page and see what he can do.

Banner needed a yes man and Lombardi is the yes man.

Good luck Tom Heckert, I believe you get two more years of pay and that is consistent with pass Cleveland Browns coaches and executives.

Banner is the CMFIC, so, he got his buddy and they will determine the free agents kept, players kept and resigned.  He will determine the draft choices.

Banner has acquired three interesting coaches that start the 2013.  Chud, Turner and Horton is an impressive start.

Some bad and some good.  I guess we will wait and see.  The good news is, our members know if the prior problems of Lombardi continue or if he actually listens to his scouts and coaches that indicate the right players to add to the team.
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Posted: 1/19/2013 1:29 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Does this take come with some razorblades, cyanide and a nice length of rope?

I think your logic is pretty bulletproof, but I agree with Gilman that disaster might not be the only outcome. For evidence, I give you Donald Trump. A bigger cheesedick doesn't exist, yet it seems he cannot fail.

Still, pretty depressing that this fresh start has turned rancid so quickly.
>>> Decleater <<<
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Posted: 1/19/2013 1:29 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


First, I share your distrust for this management group.  Hasn't started out well for them, IMhO, at all.

Second, I'm not as sure as you seem to be that Lombardi was a lock to be here from the get-go and they just lied to us about wanting to hire the HC first and then the personnel guy.  I believe they wanted one of: Saban, Cowher or Kelly and that it wasn't clear that all of them would live with Lombardi.  So, while he (Lombardi) was the preferred choice, if a HC they wanted didn't want him they were willing to lose Lombardi to get the HC.  They didn't get any of their preferred HCs, though, so they went to the secondary market, got Chud, and Lombardi was in.

Third, I expect they'll deconstruct the roster to some extent or another.  New regimes (especially when the owner, front office, and coaching staff are all blown up at once) almost always do.  So certainly it's something to watch for, but maybe just as well to brace for.

1/6/04 Rest in peace "Daddy Wags." May perpetual light shine upon you.

"It's alright to have a hitch in your swing, but when you have a flaw in your hitch, you're in trouble." - Leon Wagner

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Posted: 1/19/2013 2:20 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Gary- "The reason I'm focused on the FO right now is because a consistently winning franchise has to be consistent and stable. I think the FO is the most important part of achieving such an organization. A FO headed by liars and people who disrespect the fans and media can use consistent and stable business practices, its just not as likely...imo. Such people won't stop with lying to us and the media, they'll lie and disrespect other people in the NFL and that ultimately will work against them."

Jerbb- I don't think you want to say only nice guys finish first, do you? There are only 2 ways a FO achieves credibility with its fans: by winning and/or taking actions which the fans believe are a step towards winning. Liars and jerks (and disliked owners in general) win, and are loved for that. See Al Davis or Jerry Jones. But they are on a precipice for as soon as they stop winning it is the same characteristics that people liked which they now get damned for. Ah...isnt the public wonderful?

But this just talks about credibility, not success. It would be nice if honesty equated success, but it doesn't. And the argument of  'who would want to come here' doesnt apply, imo. Money talks, after all.

Daddywags, I agree 100% with your take.


Edit- I would strongly recommend anyone down on Banner to read the 8-section piece written about him by a Philadelphia writer. It was linked in the OBR-sorry I dont have it. I was negative on Banner until I read it, and it definitely changed my thoughts about him. It's not a fluff piece, its really good.


Last edited 1/19/2013 2:24 PM by JERBB

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Posted: 1/19/2013 2:42 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


in PF or on OBRF?
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Posted: 1/19/2013 2:57 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


It was in OBR but I found the link:

http://www.phillymag.com/articles/will-the-real-jo e-banner-please-stand-up/

Last edited 1/19/2013 3:00 PM by JERBB

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Posted: 1/19/2013 3:00 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Thanks for looking it up. I couldn't find it. But that one gave an error file not found.

See if this is the one.
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Posted: 1/19/2013 3:02 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Strange. When I paste the url  joe becomes jo e   so you get 404.  Google 'will the real Joe Banner stand up' and you'll get it. If anyone can fix the link, thanks.
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Posted: 1/19/2013 3:10 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


I think the one I put up works.

I read it. I consider that article to be a valid data point, but its the kind of article Mary Kay was relegated to, and maybe is what she is comfortable with. A human interest angle on a person. 

As one that watched and listened to the assassination of Belichick for years, you just have to know it can't all be true.

But I know this now. Joe Banner is a liar. It's just that simple and plain. He thinks nothing of lying to the fans. 

So anything he says and is quoted in an article while he's here in Cleveland cannot be believed on its face. Its sad, but he's already proven that. 

That may not be important to some, but its important to me because I use what these guys say to formulate POV. And part of that effort requires you to understand who is trustworthy and who is not. At the moment, not one person in the FO and that includes the new owner can be believed when he says something.

Last edited 1/19/2013 3:12 PM by Gary Reents

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Posted: 1/19/2013 3:40 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Oh, that's the fourth thing I wanted to say:  All these guys lie to us, don't they?  I've pretty much come to the state (some time ago, really) where anything any front office or coaching type tells the media/fans is filtered through my "Could be lying" filter.  Actually, it starts out more like a "probably a half-truth" filter, and if it gets to a "if he opens his mouth I know he's lying" filter, well, then he's reached the Ted Bonda/Ted Stepien/LeBron James level.

1/6/04 Rest in peace "Daddy Wags." May perpetual light shine upon you.

"It's alright to have a hitch in your swing, but when you have a flaw in your hitch, you're in trouble." - Leon Wagner

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Posted: 1/19/2013 3:46 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



daddywags wrote: Oh, that's the fourth thing I wanted to say:  All these guys lie to us, don't they?  I've pretty much come to the state (some time ago, really) where anything any front office or coaching type tells the media/fans is filtered through my "Could be lying" filter.  Actually, it starts out more like a "probably a half-truth" filter, and if it gets to a "if he opens his mouth I know he's lying" filter, well, then he's reached the Ted Bonda/Ted Stepien/LeBron James level.
There's avoiding a question. Then there's making an ambiguous statement. 

Lying is something else entirely. I don't believe Randy Lerner lied like that to the press. I think Holmgren was pretty straight up. As was Heckert. I don't recall any of them sitting in from of the press TWICE and outright lying to them.  I allow lying around the draft, that's not lying its a tactic. YMMV.

I found it really ironic that Haslam and Banner went on about its about getting a front office team that works well together (weeks ago) and then hire a man known to be a backstabbing prick in the office. That's pretty funny.
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Posted: 1/19/2013 4:36 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Okay, Gary, you go with that.  I think Lerner lied about the team being for sale (he was smart enough not to directly talk to the press about it, though - instead sending his underlings, like Mike Holmgren, to deny the rumors) and that Holmgren was deceptive about his major hires just remarkably all having the same agent.  I'm sure they were the "best people for the jobs" and the agent thing was just a coincidence. 

As for Haslam, Banner and Lombardi - I think they probably do work well together.  Why wouldn't three backstabbing pricks work well together?  It's the other folks who need to watch their backs.

1/6/04 Rest in peace "Daddy Wags." May perpetual light shine upon you.

"It's alright to have a hitch in your swing, but when you have a flaw in your hitch, you're in trouble." - Leon Wagner

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Posted: 1/19/2013 4:41 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



daddywags wrote: Okay, Gary, you go with that.  I think Lerner lied about the team being for sale (he was smart enough not to directly talk to the press about it, though - instead sending his underlings, like Mike Holmgren, to deny the rumors) and that Holmgren was deceptive about his major hires just remarkably all having the same agent.  I'm sure they were the "best people for the jobs" and the agent thing was just a coincidence. 

As for Haslam, Banner and Lombardi - I think they probably do work well together.  Why wouldn't three backstabbing pricks work well together?  It's the other folks who need to watch their backs.
You might have me on Lerner.
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Posted: 1/19/2013 4:45 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



Gary, i would like to suggest that your opinion that Banner lied is being influenced by the fact that you didn't like him first, so if there are 2 plausible scenarios you will choose the more negative one (which is why I suggested reading the article).

For example, suppose daddywags' analysis is correct. That with Banner being good friends with Lombardi, there would of course be the expectation that Lombardi would be a serious candidate.

And what if Banner didnt introduce him to Haslam for the reason Banner said- that they wanted to hire a coach first. Would the situation be best characterized that Lombardi was the choice PENDING the HC approval? Now you can argue that Lombardi would be a rubber stamp by the HC, and subject to 'convincing' by Banner. But that begs the question as to why say you will hire the HC first to begin with?

I think Lombardi's hiring was a formality. Its very possible he didnt meet Haslam until later, but he was going t be hired unless he totally alientated Haslam. In the meantime Banner interviewed one person and probably 'made calls' to others.

This isnt unlike other places where there is a favorite person to hire but there has to be a sequence of events first. In fact, I could argue that Banner was professional by not deviating from his announced plan, and bringing Lombardi in after the entire world knew he would. Dare I say that was an honorable thing to do?

You are good at analyzing things. Step outside on this one and try to look at it from a different angle. Theres not enough well-defined data points yet, in order to call the guy a liar, in my opinion.

Last edited 1/19/2013 4:46 PM by JERBB

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Posted: 1/19/2013 5:12 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


>>Theres not enough well-defined data points yet, in order to call the guy a liar, in my opinion.<<

Oh, no, Banner's a liar.  Make no mistake about it.  He may be more or less of a liar than the others in the same business (my bet is on "seems like more because he's not as good at it and isn't as well liked as most," but time will tell), but he's a liar.

1/6/04 Rest in peace "Daddy Wags." May perpetual light shine upon you.

"It's alright to have a hitch in your swing, but when you have a flaw in your hitch, you're in trouble." - Leon Wagner

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Posted: 1/19/2013 5:21 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



JERBB wrote:
Gary, i would like to suggest that your opinion that Banner lied is being influenced by the fact that you didn't like him first, so if there are 2 plausible scenarios you will choose the more negative one (which is why I suggested reading the article).

For example, suppose daddywags' analysis is correct. That with Banner being good friends with Lombardi, there would of course be the expectation that Lombardi would be a serious candidate.

And what if Banner didnt introduce him to Haslam for the reason Banner said- that they wanted to hire a coach first. Would the situation be best characterized that Lombardi was the choice PENDING the HC approval? Now you can argue that Lombardi would be a rubber stamp by the HC, and subject to 'convincing' by Banner. But that begs the question as to why say you will hire the HC first to begin with?

I think Lombardi's hiring was a formality. Its very possible he didnt meet Haslam until later, but he was going t be hired unless he totally alientated Haslam. In the meantime Banner interviewed one person and probably 'made calls' to others.

This isnt unlike other places where there is a favorite person to hire but there has to be a sequence of events first. In fact, I could argue that Banner was professional by not deviating from his announced plan, and bringing Lombardi in after the entire world knew he would. Dare I say that was an honorable thing to do?

You are good at analyzing things. Step outside on this one and try to look at it from a different angle. Theres not enough well-defined data points yet, in order to call the guy a liar, in my opinion.
At some point you have to accept the truth of things. Lombardi has been mentioned as in the plans for weeks and weeks. It would not go away

Over the years I've learned that one report is a rumor and means nothing. When you get two reports, you start to pay attention. You make sure the second report isn't a report of the first report. If you get three reports...its almost always true. 

We passed that point of the third report many weeks ago.  We were up past 5. And yet, I figured that with all the negative reaction to the reports Haslam might stop it. Then we heard that if he does come it wouldn't be a position of great significance. And that was the clincher there. I knew he was coming.

I figured they would hire a well respected GM and the mid season or so, maybe during training camp, slip him in as some kind of assistant to Banner or something. But no. Here he is and he has a position of significance.  The reports assuring everyone he wasn't coming or if he did it wouldn't be an important post were coming from Banner and Lombardi. That's obvious now.

Now, using my method...here he is like I expected/feared/dreaded. I would say my "preferences" played no part in the FACT that the reports ended up being accurate. So I don't believe my desires influenced me. 

So, I have to say that maybe you and a few others here are biased, hoping that it really can't be that bad...can it? I've watched some in here just about twist themselves into a mental pretzel trying to maintain that Haslam is just sooo good and he knows this and really knows that...etc.  Its getting ridiculous now.  

I will let Banner and Lombardi prove their competence. Back when Belichick was here he got slammed for picking terrible draft picks. Now I hear it was Lombardi making all those picks. I doubt that. I think It was Belichick. So, I'm keeping an open mind on his ability to evaluate talent. But his backstabbing and **** stirring are a matter of record and he began here by lying.

 Nasty people can be quite good at what they do. But Banner and Lombardi have already proven they are untrustworthy and that lends credence to all of the negative reports about both men. Liars love babies, too. Liars have mommies who love them and brothers, too. They even have friends. So personal interest stories with heartwarming tales of babies, etc, don't really touch on what I'm worried about.

What I'm getting from some is that I should quit raining on their parade and assume positive things about whatever these guys do. I don't do that. My POV is what I think is going on based on information I see.

So far, I like the coaching staffs. Haslam and Banner whiffed on their main targets, but if you gotta get a rookie coach and take your chances, Chud has some good things in his favor. I like Horton. I like Turner. 

But the right answer to the question about Brandon Weeden (to Lombardi) is 'That's Coach Chudinski's call." But that wasn't the answer we got. So right away the story of Chud having roster control should be considered suspect.
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Posted: 1/19/2013 5:33 PM

Re: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 


Karma alone should doom this reboot.
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Posted: 1/19/2013 7:30 PM

RE: If A is true, then B must be true. And if B is true, then... 



Gary Reents wrote:
.  

Back when Belichick was here he got slammed for picking terrible draft picks. Now I hear it was Lombardi making all those picks. I doubt that. I think It was Belichick.




Oh yeah, you could tell by the Everett pick. Who else would take a center at the top of the draft for a team screaming for playmakers? (Oh wait, Mangini carried the tradition forward). Strength up the middle, rah!
>>> Decleater <<<
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