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Re: Soul....QBs can't run

Posted: 1/14/2013 1:32 PM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 


"Here comes gadfly in 3, 2, 1....."

I don't know what to say. I heard Tom Jackson on ESPN say
there is no way for defenses to defend the pistol/option with guys like
Kaepernick, Newton, Wilson, RGIII. And it would apear so. A new athleticism at QB.

But there is also no question that the risk of injury to a running, as opposed
to a scrambling/mobile/third-down-converting QB, is far greater. We'll see how
it pans out. Right now Wilson appears to have the best take and judgment on
when to run, but he too is running around quite a lot.

Ya know, I'm thinking that this is the way of modern sports - what I mean is, accept
a lot of risk in exchange for short term achievement. Instead of thinking about
quarterbacking for a 12 year + career -go hells bells for a considerably shorter
period, try and win that SB, get one or two $20 million contracts and forget about it.
As a baseball fan I started to believe this in viewing how closers perform. I'm a Giants
fan and saw how Wilson has blown his arm out for second time in career. Saw this with
great Dodger closer Eric Gagne (there are many others). Just come in, throw 97mph +
wicked breaking ball. Try and go for like 2-3 years. Net a big contract, and if you blow
your arm out in year 5...no biggie. Get a Tommy John. Demonstrate proficiency and try
and land one more $20 million contract. Call it a day.

There's kind of a crazy, go for broke mentality - driven by $, quick payoffs, lack of
patience?

As for running QBs...somebody raised it yesterday somewhere around here - does it really work, is it a fad, does it work because it's outside the norm, will there be adaptation and if guys like Kaepernick and RGIII start gettting hurt like RGIII was this year do they cool it?

I don't know. But tell you this. I'm no expert. I don't watch much college ball (so I don't know exactly how these guys played). But how this organization allows a guy like Kaepernick to go undrafted - what, is big, fast, and laser throwing a bad thing? - or even Wilson - just listen to him, watch him, what' the problem? Oh he's 5'11"" - okay did you see him throwing behind a Wisconsin line as tall as any in the pros? Either of those guys psychologically/competitively capable of slide/tripping into safe, short of first down QB scrambles like Weeds? Nope. Winner/exceptional meet meh/decent.
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  • redright
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Posted: 1/14/2013 7:06 PM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 



gadfly23 wrote: "Here comes gadfly in 3, 2, 1....."

I don't know what to say. I heard Tom Jackson on ESPN say
there is no way for defenses to defend the pistol/option with guys like
Kaepernick, Newton, Wilson, RGIII. And it would apear so. A new athleticism at QB.

But there is also no question that the risk of injury to a running, as opposed
to a scrambling/mobile/third-down-converting QB, is far greater. We'll see how
it pans out. Right now Wilson appears to have the best take and judgment on
when to run, but he too is running around quite a lot.

Ya know, I'm thinking that this is the way of modern sports - what I mean is, accept
a lot of risk in exchange for short term achievement. Instead of thinking about
quarterbacking for a 12 year + career -go hells bells for a considerably shorter
period, try and win that SB, get one or two $20 million contracts and forget about it.
As a baseball fan I started to believe this in viewing how closers perform. I'm a Giants
fan and saw how Wilson has blown his arm out for second time in career. Saw this with
great Dodger closer Eric Gagne (there are many others). Just come in, throw 97mph +
wicked breaking ball. Try and go for like 2-3 years. Net a big contract, and if you blow
your arm out in year 5...no biggie. Get a Tommy John. Demonstrate proficiency and try
and land one more $20 million contract. Call it a day.

There's kind of a crazy, go for broke mentality - driven by $, quick payoffs, lack of
patience?

As for running QBs...somebody raised it yesterday somewhere around here - does it really work, is it a fad, does it work because it's outside the norm, will there be adaptation and if guys like Kaepernick and RGIII start gettting hurt like RGIII was this year do they cool it?

I don't know. But tell you this. I'm no expert. I don't watch much college ball (so I don't know exactly how these guys played). But how this organization allows a guy like Kaepernick to go undrafted - what, is big, fast, and laser throwing a bad thing? - or even Wilson - just listen to him, watch him, what' the problem? Oh he's 5'11"" - okay did you see him throwing behind a Wisconsin line as tall as any in the pros? Either of those guys psychologically/competitively capable of slide/tripping into safe, short of first down QB scrambles like Weeds? Nope. Winner/exceptional meet meh/decent.
Gad, It just may be the offensive coaches are taking full advantage of all the protections QB now get.  Slide..Throw away...Don't hit em high or low or helmet or talk nasty to them. People are paying to see exciting college/arena quarterbacking. It is selling and making a lot of money for the owners.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:11 PM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 


^ lets not forget how you cant cover a receiver without drawing a flag. Dunno, interesting next 5 years in the NFL watching how this all plays out.  

Lost in the mix are guys like Brady and Manning.  I grew up arguing with my uncle about Montana vs. Elway.  I liked Elway.  This is getting out of hand though with the running vs. scrambling thing.

My favorite current prototype is the Rapist.  Big guy, can scramble long enough to find open receivers downfield, can break tackles, lets you cheap out a bit on the O line.  

I'm not so sure pocket passers are going the way of the dodo though.
- I met SW's mom once. -
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Posted: 1/14/2013 11:33 PM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 



DeanSheen wrote: ^ lets not forget how you cant cover a receiver without drawing a flag. Dunno, interesting next 5 years in the NFL watching how this all plays out.  

Lost in the mix are guys like Brady and Manning.  I grew up arguing with my uncle about Montana vs. Elway.  I liked Elway.  This is getting out of hand though with the running vs. scrambling thing.

My favorite current prototype is the Rapist.  Big guy, can scramble long enough to find open receivers downfield, can break tackles, lets you cheap out a bit on the O line.  

I'm not so sure pocket passers are going the way of the dodo though.
SD:

You have to be able to move your feet ,

Brady buys the extra time he needs with subtle moves , left or right that takes defenders out of the play and he does it in a five yard space .

Manning can't move at all , force him to scramble off his spot or get near him with a tackle and he'll throw up his skirt .

Totally immobile slugs like   will find it hard to be seated at the table , it doesn't doom pocket passing  , just those who are total statues within the pocket .

SoulDawg
WAR : OUR TIME HAS COME
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Posted: 1/15/2013 12:52 AM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 


SD - "just those who are total statues within the pocket ."

Frankly, Kosar made that clear to me. After watching the
Denver games way back when and how Elway pure and
simple is what beat us....need a QB who is mobile enough
to survive modern schemes and modern linemen.

Again, how this organization could look at Kaepernick and
Wilson and say no way in rounds 2 or 3 is beyond me (although
drafting a 5'11" QB is always leavving your self open for heavy
duty criticism).........but what did their eyes and ears tell them
about these guys? I know squat, but I can SEE what makes
those two (and there have been numerous others) special.

Special athletes at QB - not a Browns specialty EVER (since Ryan).

Last edited 1/15/2013 12:53 AM by gadfly23

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Posted: 1/15/2013 12:54 AM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 


SD - "Brady buys the extra time he needs with subtle moves"

They don't come gawkier or slower than Brady - so who taught him?
Whose gonna teach Weeds?
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Posted: 1/15/2013 7:00 AM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 



gadfly23 wrote: SD - "Brady buys the extra time he needs with subtle moves"

They don't come gawkier or slower than Brady - so who taught him?
Whose gonna teach Weeds?
SD:

Brady's is a natural like RG3's God given speed  when he was young , he ignored the rush and released the ball at the last second without a flinch , as he got older and those hits took their toll , he developed the pocket awareness of survival and experience under live bullets as an afterthought to completing his passes , no coach can teach you instinct , and there is no panacea for thousands of hours of game film and actual game experience.

Under Charlie Weis and O Brien  he developed a game which takes a backseat to none , and he is the one case , where a player came in from College with no rep as a deep ball thrower who developed it into an art of which he has no peers .

The man's arm got stronger as he got older instead of whats happened to Manning who never had a gun , but now even that's eroded to a pop pistol .

On Weeds .

He's in the best hands he could hope for .

Chud took a stump like DA and landed him in the pro bowl as an alternate , it was DA's limited brain and emotional fragility which prevented him from continued growth .

As in all things some people simply cannot take advantage of golden opportunities due to their inherent limitations , no matter who they have as mentors , .

So too shall we see with Weeds.

If he doesn't flourish under Chud and Turner , then he's a hopeless case and 2014 securing QB will be priority number one .

Hopefully as I suspect that shouldn't be the case , so we can go hunting for impact players like Clowney and others to really take a talent jump on the roster .

Prudently I would advise they add a young talent in the third to fifth round who can upgrade our depth and potentially challenge  when given the opportunity down the road  so that the position remains strong and secured against future events.

The Florida state QB per example who has size enough arm and the physical quicks to develop much as kap did in the background behind Smith , much the way Pro QB's were afforded the opportunity to sit and learn  before the new rage of pay em and play em took hold.

The railing on the other board by posters and Cleveland fans  on the talk shows over the possible return of Derek Anderson are short sighted ignorance ASFIC .

Couldn't get a better prod to see what Weeds can do .

Anderson knows the offense  and he can zip the damn ball , so the rest of the team won't suffer as Weeds struggles to catch up .

The two will hold battles as to who throws the better ball in Camp , and the receivers will be much more able to develop timing and rhythm in patterns as the ball will get there in a hurry regardless of whose delivering it .

The third QB will have to work , and will be all the better for it .

Humps like the McCoy's of the world   brought in for Camp arms will look like slow motion , and be exposed with the quickness , just like the prospect who keeps up with that duo will find a welcome home , and stand out quickly in camp.

Anderson's game experience and resume on multiple teams brings  true legit veteran value  , unlike the non support Weeds received in that department on last years roster .

SoulDawg
WAR : OUR TIME HAS COME
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Posted: 1/15/2013 8:38 AM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 


The entire problem is what the rules committee and head honchos have made this nfl game.

Flag football.

More passing, more scoring, etc.

It sucks.

I long for the good old days where WR's couldn't run wild and there weren't so many interference or holding calls.  More defense.  More running.

A man's game.  Not this pussy-sheet we see now.
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Posted: 1/15/2013 6:19 PM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 



gadfly23 wrote:

Again, how this organization could look at Kaepernick and
Wilson and say no way in rounds 2 or 3 is beyond me...

Special athletes at QB - not a Browns specialty EVER (since Ryan).
The Browns passed on Kaep at #26 to trade up and take Phil Taylor at #21. Taylor looks like he'll have a fine career, but come on, the QB's we had at the time were McCoy and Wallace. Kaep ended up going one pick before we took Jabaal Sheard. 

We also could have taken Dalton at #26 after the trade down with the Falcons. 

Passing on both Dalton and Kaepernick to trade up for Phil Taylor when we had absolutely nothing at QB really takes the shine off Heckert's draft record. Unless it was the Big Fella that told him to get a DL with that first pick.
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Posted: 1/15/2013 9:48 PM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 



PROSECUTOR wrote:
gadfly23 wrote:

Again, how this organization could look at Kaepernick and
Wilson and say no way in rounds 2 or 3 is beyond me...

Special athletes at QB - not a Browns specialty EVER (since Ryan).
The Browns passed on Kaep at #26 to trade up and take Phil Taylor at #21. Taylor looks like he'll have a fine career, but come on, the QB's we had at the time were McCoy and Wallace. Kaep ended up going one pick before we took Jabaal Sheard. 

We also could have taken Dalton at #26 after the trade down with the Falcons. 

Passing on both Dalton and Kaepernick to trade up for Phil Taylor when we had absolutely nothing at QB really takes the shine off Heckert's draft record. Unless it was the Big Fella that told him to get a DL with that first pick.
SD:

When they moved down and garnered an extra #1 in the following draft , I had hoped it was for the intent of QB .

As I advocated before hand to sign Hasselback and go after Locker at 6 if they were two chicken to step up and bring in Newton .

Plenty of posts on the value of QB in that draft and not relaying on McCoy , who I had raised serious issues about over his putrid arm strength  end of 2010 in the cold.

That bet should have been hedged .

You can't get paid $50 milion and come year three your scratching your nuts and picking your ass like a monkey,when your supposed to already be developing a real QB .

That abortion they shot their was on  2011 over McCoy was never more than a Holmgren wet dream beating his mentor in the same third round and finding Joe II.

I called that stoopid sheet for exactly what it was in real time at the time and didn't give a flying fArt who didn't like it.

They can't give away a QB with 21 starts , let alone get somebody to pay for him.

SoulDawg
WAR : OUR TIME HAS COME
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Posted: 1/16/2013 12:11 AM

Re: Soul....QBs can't run 


"Passing on both Dalton and Kaepernick to trade up for Phil Taylor when we had absolutely nothing at QB really takes the shine off Heckert's draft record."

I know it's Monday morning, but what you say is correct and a Browns' specialty - not hitting on available QBs who turn out to be stars. Hitting on duds (not calling Weeds that, but I don't think he's special). It's the constant death knell and not just since the return.
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Posted: 1/16/2013 7:31 AM

Browns to be better or worse? 


That abortion they shot their was on  2011 over McCoy was never more than a Holmgren wet dream beating his mentor in the same third round and finding Joe II.

I called that stoopid sheet for exactly what it was in real time at the time and didn't give a flying fArt who didn't like it.

McCoy was the 21st pick in the 3rd round. Not exactly a huge investment. So he's turning out to be a career backup. He'll probably have a Seneca Wallace type career. They could have done better with that pick (Navarro Bowman was taken a couple of spots later), but drafting McCoy in that spot was hardly a disaster. In fact it wasn't much different than Seattle taking Russell Wilson in the 3rd round. Sometimes you hit on a guy who's not supposed to be tall enough or have enough arm (Tom Brady in round 6, for example). 

The much bigger mistake was passing on Andy Dalton AND Colin Kaepernick with the #26 pick the following year after they had a chance to see McCoy in practice on a daily basis and even start six games as a rookie. They passed on Kaepernick AND gave up a draft pick to move up for Phil Taylor. This went against Holmgren's philosophy of drafting a QB every year. 

I don't know if McCoy's solid showing as a rookie in his first start against the Steelers misled them into believing he was The Guy or what. Maybe it was the back-to-back wins over the defending Super Bowl Champion Saints and the Patriots in his next two starts, or his 132 QB rating in a close loss to the Bengals. But it's amazing to think they passed on a QB with as big an upside as Kaepernick when McCoy was their starter. That's where Holmgren should have stepped in and made the pick. I'll bet he's kicking himself now.

Last edited 1/16/2013 7:36 AM by PROSECUTOR

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