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Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
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- mortdogsr
- Steeler Shredder
- 4677 posts this site
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Posted: 3/22/2012 3:32 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
outnabout wrote: How many QBs drafted top 5 in last 30 years won a super bowl? Of them, how many won a super bowl without a running game? Not sure but I bet its not very far north of 1. NFL teams currently pass 56% of the time run 44%...on average over time it has shifted toward the pass due to rules changes. However...you still HAVE to be able to run well enough to make first downs otherwise, the defense will ignore your running game and blitz you MERCILESSLY. http://www.advancednflstats.co...l-analysis.html |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 3:35 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
outnabout wrote: How many QBs drafted top 5 in last 30 years won a super bowl? Of them, how many won a super bowl without a running game? Not sure but I bet its not very far north of 1. QBs drafted top 5, last 30 years, that made it to the Super Bowl...Eli Manning - Brandon Jacobs/Ahmad Bradshaw Donovan McNabb (lost) - Brian Westbrook Peyton Manning - Joseph Addai Steve McNair (lost) - Eddie George Troy Aikman - Emmitt Smith John Elway - Terrell Davis Jim McMahon - Walter Payton Edit to add: Maybe an argument can be made to include Bledsoe. He did sub in the AFC Championship for an injured Brady. I chose not to include him.
“Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn’t good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We’re going to be a lot better than that.” - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Last edited 3/22/2012 4:04 PM by TheAlbinoRhino
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Posted: 3/22/2012 3:39 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
Ifwe don't go all in on defense with the first three picks including Claiborne, then I 1000% agree!
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--- daddywags wrote:
Trade down to 6, 7 or 8 and take Richardson there, then trade up from 22 to 15 or so and take Floyd. Add a slot receiver later in the draft (or in free agency). Offensive weapons issue solved. Then you just need a QB and to fill out your OL.
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In subtle ways I am a piece of everyone I have ever met. In obvious ways I am none of them. |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 3:40 PM
RE: Holmgren comments on WR..
thetid wrote: Only 1 RB drafted in the top 5 in the last 30 years has won a SB with the team that drafted them. (Jamal Lewis) so, there is a chance?  |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 3:44 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
TheAlbinoRhino wrote:
outnabout wrote: How many QBs drafted top 5 in last 30 years won a super bowl? Of them, how many won a super bowl without a running game? Not sure but I bet its not very far north of 1. QBs drafted top 5, last 30 years, that made it to the Super Bowl...
Eli Manning - Brandon Jacobs/Ahmad Bradshaw
Donovan McNabb (lost) - Brian Westbrook
Peyton Manning - Joseph Addai
Steve McNair (lost) - Eddie George
Troy Aikman - Emmitt Smith
John Elway - Terrell Davis
John McMahon - Walter Payton
Edit to add: Maybe an argument can be made to include Bledsoe. He did sub in the AFC Championship for an injured Brady. I chose not to include him. Didn't he play the Packers? Not sure who their RB was.
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Posted: 3/22/2012 3:59 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
KenInToronto wrote:
TheAlbinoRhino wrote:
outnabout wrote: How many QBs drafted top 5 in last 30 years won a super bowl? Of them, how many won a super bowl without a running game? Not sure but I bet its not very far north of 1. QBs drafted top 5, last 30 years, that made it to the Super Bowl...
Eli Manning - Brandon Jacobs/Ahmad Bradshaw
Donovan McNabb (lost) - Brian Westbrook
Peyton Manning - Joseph Addai
Steve McNair (lost) - Eddie George
Troy Aikman - Emmitt Smith
John Elway - Terrell Davis
John McMahon - Walter Payton
Edit to add: Maybe an argument can be made to include Bledsoe. He did sub in the AFC Championship for an injured Brady. I chose not to include him. Didn't he play the Packers? Not sure who their RB was. Curtis "fricken" Martin was their running back. Yes so they have the combo there. It may be more a passing league but that's what makes good runners who are complete backs even more valuable. A guy who can block and catch goes a long way.. Kinda why people don't think AP is the best back in the league because he isn't good at those aspects.
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Posted: 3/22/2012 4:00 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
QBs drafted top 5, last 30 years, that made it to the Super Bowl...
Eli Manning - Brandon Jacobs/Ahmad Bradshaw
Donovan McNabb (lost) - Brian Westbrook
Peyton Manning - Joseph Addai
Steve McNair (lost) - Eddie George
Troy Aikman - Emmitt Smith
John Elway - Terrell Davis
John McMahon - Walter Payton
Edit to add: Maybe an argument can be made to include Bledsoe. He did sub in the AFC Championship for an injured Brady. I chose not to include him.
Who is John McMahon?
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Posted: 3/22/2012 4:04 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
Rattdawg wrote: QBs drafted top 5, last 30 years, that made it to the Super Bowl...
Eli Manning - Brandon Jacobs/Ahmad Bradshaw
Donovan McNabb (lost) - Brian Westbrook
Peyton Manning - Joseph Addai
Steve McNair (lost) - Eddie George
Troy Aikman - Emmitt Smith
John Elway - Terrell Davis
John McMahon - Walter Payton
Edit to add: Maybe an argument can be made to include Bledsoe. He did sub in the AFC Championship for an injured Brady. I chose not to include him.
Who is John McMahon? Jim's (more) evil twin. LOL. Sorry about the typo. I did some cut n paste and think part of Elway entry carried over. 
“Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn’t good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We’re going to be a lot better than that.” - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Posted: 3/22/2012 4:07 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
ClydeLee wrote:
KenInToronto wrote:
Didn't he play the Packers? Not sure who their RB was. Curtis "fricken" Martin was their running back. Yes so they have the combo there.
It may be more a passing league but that's what makes good runners who are complete backs even more valuable. A guy who can block and catch goes a long way.. Kinda why people don't think AP is the best back in the league because he isn't good at those aspects. Thanks for the catch. Bledsoe / Martin goes on the list.
“Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn’t good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We’re going to be a lot better than that.” - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Posted: 3/22/2012 4:08 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
Sounds like Holmgren is setting the table of expectations again. I see a team down in the draft like the Falcons wanting Blackmon and offerring the Browns a number 1 next year and the Browns taking it.
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Posted: 3/22/2012 4:09 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
GUYS, it's jockying for position....draft is taking shape...the top 2 picks are in, and now the rest is taking shape...
1. Tampa wants Richardson or Claiborne...
2. Minnesota is leaning toward Claiborne...
3. Cleveland wants Richardson.
4. Cleveland doesn't want anyone jumping ahead of us to get Richardson at 3, so he's saying that he isn't going to take Blackmon b/c he knows that Minnesota wants Claiborne...and can't get him if they drop to 5 b/c he isn't going to be there...I think this a clear message to Minnesota and Tampa....ixnay on the radetay!!!!
This one is taking shape....the picks are falling into place...this is an easy one to see now that #2 is gone....
If no trade with Tampa and Minn:
3. Minn - Claiborne
4. Cleve - Richardson
5. TB - ?Khalil
If trade with Tampa:
3. TB - Richardson
4. Cleve - Claiborne
5. Minn - Khalil
Trade gets done if Minnesota is debating between Khalil and Claiborne...if they want Claiborne more...my guess is no trade and we get Richardson....
Last edited 3/22/2012 4:16 PM by drdawg12
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Posted: 3/22/2012 4:16 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
So we shouldn't draft tannehill, we shouldn't draft richardson, we shouldn't draft blackmon, and we shouldn't draft defense.
Who's the best Kicker in the 2012 class?
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Posted: 3/22/2012 4:35 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
4Four wrote: With Holmgren's comments I see something like this:
Trade down from 4 (to 5,6,7 or 8), picking up an extra second
1A. Richardson,RB
1B. Glenn,RT
2A. Randle,WR
2B. Weeden,QB
3 David,OLB
4A Broyles,WR
4B Martin,DT
5 DE
6 S
I like this.
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- flugbo
- Harmless Furball
- 58 posts this site
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Posted: 3/22/2012 4:55 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
BundyDawg wrote:
Scrottiemcbooger wrote: I think Holmgren just doesn't know what he's doing. He talks too damn much.
I'm fine if they aren't interested in Blackmon...but it would be nice if the teams who are interested think we might not be in a trade down situation.
Seriously, every time he opens his big fat mouth I think he is a fool and Heckert should be running the show. I am sick of seeing comments like this. Do you really think Holmgren would be in the NFL for this long if he didn't know what he's doing? Do you seriously believe you know better than him to be able to judge him? Think about it. exactly
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Posted: 3/22/2012 5:02 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
Drafting is such a huge crap shoot. For years Cinncinati drafted in the top 5 or so and still sucked. I am convinced now more than ever who gets drafted where rarely matters. Organizations win super bowls. Good organizations find very good talent where ever they draft. Some organizations are better at finding future pro-bowl talent than others. In the past 10 years the Browns have been terrible at this. Knowing what you know now would you still draft Taylor before Sheard? Sheard had a better pro year in my opinion, but he was drafted lower?
If you get what you want and need then you have a successful draft. The rookie salary cap should loosen things up on selecting high vs low. It should be easier to go with the guy you really want rather than who the experts think is the "best coming out of college". If the guy you want isn't valued as high, but your pretty sure he will not be there next time you pick, you should pick him. Sure if you can trade down a little bit, go for it, but if not no biggy. There is no guarantees on anyone you pick obviously.
The Browns need desperately to find a #1 receiver that defenses fear and respect. To me this is imperative. If you think Blackmon is a number #1 receiver take him. If not don't. But the browns better leave this draft with one this year, since they didn't do it in FA. I think the draft will be a failure if they don't get a difference maker in the Wide Receiver Spot.
Projects and flyers need to be low in the draft. I don't mind they drafted Owen M, but 4 seemed awfully high for his talents and skills. I think they missed on him as he was not and did not show that he was a difference maker.
Whoever they draft they need to draft difference makers. The lack of pro-bowl selections is very telling. Draft pro bowl players and I am sure we will win more games. While if you have a solid and deep team, I think you can have the luxury if taking the best player on your sheet, regardless of position, otherwise it has to be need before greed.
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Posted: 3/22/2012 5:14 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
I have been steadfastly against taking Khalil to play RT, but I am beginning to wonder if it might make sense after all. He would obviously be the BPA at #4. Grab him and wait for an offer that you can't refuse. If the offer doesn't come, plug him in at RT and hope for Pinkston and Lauvao to continue to improve. This would have the potential to be the best offensive line in NFL. As SOBO pointed out, when his rookie contract expires, Joe Thomas would be on the downside. Let them swap sides. drdawg12 wrote:
If no trade with Tampa and Minn:
3. Minn - Claiborne
4. Cleve - Richardson
5. TB - ?Khalil
If trade with Tampa:
3. TB - Richardson
4. Cleve - Claiborne
5. Minn - Khalil |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 5:25 PM
RE: Holmgren comments on WR..
TheAlbinoRhino wrote:
thetid wrote: Only 1 RB drafted in the top 5 in the last 30 years has won a SB with the team that drafted them. (Jamal Lewis) Only 2 WRs drafted in the top 5 in the last 30 years went to a Super Bowl with the team that drafted them (Irving Fryar, Larry Fitzgerald).
And they both lost. Guess what... crappy teams usually pick in the top five. How many skill position players picked in the top 5 win Superbowls with their original team? How many teams picking in the top 5 go on to win Superbowls with any of those players? The percentage of top 5 picks that go on to win a Superbowl with their original team is probably pretty low (single digits). |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 6:13 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
Scrottiemcbooger wrote: I think Holmgren just doesn't know what he's doing. He talks too damn much.
I'm fine if they aren't interested in Blackmon...but it would be nice if the teams who are interested think we might not be in a trade down situation.
Seriously, every time he opens his big fat mouth I think he is a fool and Heckert should be running the show. Actually, I think Heckert sounds like a fool. The guy stutters like crazy, talks a million miles per hour and says absolutely nothing.
"And the men who hold high places, must be the ones to start.....to mold a new reality.....Closer To The Heart...."
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Posted: 3/22/2012 6:43 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
DarNoor wrote:This is what concerns me. I thought Heckert was in charge of the draft. I don't want Holmgren making the picks. They brought Heckert in to pick the talent. Let him do his job. If Heckert wants a WR, then let him pick a WR. I have to agree. Holmgren did not fare well in his time as a GM. He is supposed to be President and Heckert is the guy who has the credentials as a talent selector. Let him do his job. |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 6:49 PM
RE: Holmgren comments on WR..
Holmgren is still pissed about wasting a ninth overall pick on Koren Robinson. |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 6:51 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
JoeClevelandFann wrote:
DarNoor wrote:This is what concerns me. I thought Heckert was in charge of the draft. I don't want Holmgren making the picks. They brought Heckert in to pick the talent. Let him do his job. If Heckert wants a WR, then let him pick a WR.
I have to agree. Holmgren did not fare well in his time as a GM. He is supposed to be President and Heckert is the guy who has the credentials as a talent selector. Let him do his job. This is exacllt why we do not hear more form the FO. Idiots scream, bitch , and moan that the FO is too secretive and dont talk to tthe media enough. Then they do, anwer a couple questions and the same folks rip apart every little thing they say. If I was a member of the Browns FO - I wouldnt talk to the media either. Do you really think H&H are going to come out and say anything they dont want the other teams to know? Give me a break. I can see 31 GM's now - "Hey Big Mike said the Browns are not taking blackmon at #4." Thats cool. They also said they are OK with the DB's on the roster, so lets set our boards up with Clairborne and Blackmon still available at #5 and plan from there." hmm mmm. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 6:57 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
tomyo18 wrote: settle down- it's just the start of the Posturing BS Season Amazing how so many fall for the obvious. Is there really that much disparity between the experienced and the novices here? |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 6:58 PM
RE: Holmgren comments on WR..
I don't get people who say Holmgren didn't fair well as a GM.. Tim Ruskell took over the spot the year they won. He did some good moves but clearly Holmgren had to have had say in draftee's and he built the team all the years before it. It wasn't garbage that was turned around magically.
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Posted: 3/22/2012 7:04 PM
RE: Holmgren comments on WR..
Wardawg11 wrote:
BenardDawg wrote: Is there any quote or link showing that Blackmon actually said that? Not saying I don't believe you or am trying to pick a fight...I'm just curious to actually see it
Read the threads that talk about players(agents) not wanting to come here. So just speculation on your part then? |
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Posted: 3/22/2012 7:08 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
Scrottiemcbooger wrote: I think Holmgren just doesn't know what he's doing. He talks too damn much.
Seriously, every time he opens his big fat mouth I think he is a fool and Heckert should be running the show. This is such a fascinating and ridiculous opinion to me, given that the man built two programs into Super Bowl teams. Yes, the role is different as team president, but he knows how and when to blow smoke with the best of them. He has always hired fantastic coaches, found good QB's, and won. Now he's in Cleveland and you think he's forgotten it all. Just a highly curious plane of logic, to me. |
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- outnabout
 - Harmless Furball
- 95 posts this site
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Posted: 3/22/2012 7:13 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
AlbinoRhino - thanks for the research. I think we'll add this one to the list in 2014!
Colt McCoy - Trent Richardson
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- outnabout
- Harmless Furball
- 95 posts this site
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Posted: 3/22/2012 7:15 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
Sorry. I forgot McCoy wasn't a top 5 pick. Super Bowl nonetheless.
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Posted: 3/22/2012 8:33 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
Every time you open your mouth it proves how little YOU know.........
Heckert runs the draft, Holmgren can voice opinions, but mainly his job is to put as much out there as the masses will eat up. By doing this, he brings more value to the 4th pick and keeps other teams off balance as to which direction they are leaning. And since Heckert is public relations shy, it is Holmgrens job to play the media, and by doing so, other teams.
Scrottiemcbooger wrote: I think Holmgren just doesn't know what he's doing. He talks too damn much.
I'm fine if they aren't interested in Blackmon...but it would be nice if the teams who are interested think we might not be in a trade down situation.
Seriously, every time he opens his big fat mouth I think he is a fool and Heckert should be running the show.
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Posted: 3/22/2012 8:36 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
+1....Not to mention being the offensive coordinator on one of the best Super Bowl teams in historyDawgPoundWest wrote:
Scrottiemcbooger wrote: I think Holmgren just doesn't know what he's doing. He talks too damn much.
Seriously, every time he opens his big fat mouth I think he is a fool and Heckert should be running the show. This is such a fascinating and ridiculous opinion to me, given that the man built two programs into Super Bowl teams. Yes, the role is different as team president, but he knows how and when to blow smoke with the best of them. He has always hired fantastic coaches, found good QB's, and won. Now he's in Cleveland and you think he's forgotten it all. Just a highly curious plane of logic, to me.
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Posted: 3/22/2012 9:48 PM
Re: Holmgren comments on WR..
4Four wrote: I think Jacksonville may want Blackmon, which is the most probable in my mind. But you are right.... not very likely. My thought was a draft that would fall this way if someone does trade up (in the 5-8 slots). I bet Denver is in more of a WR mood after spending all that money for Manning, they may be more inclined to want to trade up so they can get the guy they want, yet they would most likely trade with Minny before they trade with the Browns.
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