TeddyDvor wrote: Per Scout for the years 2013 - 2010 Alabama has signed 99 players and OU has signed 97 players.

BootleggersBoy wrote: Again with this? Enough diatribe. Answer these questions, please.

How many greyshirts does Alabama have per year compared to others schools?

How many medical hardship schollies does Alabama pay for compared to other schools?

How many under performing athletes do not have their scholarship renewed each year at Alabama compared to other schools?

Why did Saban just start offering four year schollie in 2012?

Saban runs his team where the best are givne first opportunity to perform or they get greyshirted. Once in, if the don't perform, they are cut. He is Running like an NFL shop and it is very effective.

In other words, Nick is doing his job. He is earning his paycheck. Holding his players and his coaches accountable makes him a monster. Do you know if Nick has a family night during the season for his coaches? 

POTFI wrote:

WhiskyKilo wrote: Life isn't fair, we all know that.  Nothing is guaranteed, even if it was promised to you.

So instead of complaining that what Bama is doing isn't ethical or barely skirting the rules, I say that OU should be signing just as many.

It is so easy to "get rid" of a player nowadays, you don't even have to try.  They will hang themselves through drugs, criminal behavior, refusing to work hard etc.

If a kid won't work hard, where is the crime in booting him off campus?  That is a life lesson.

So what happens if EVERY kid you signs works hard and fulfills HIS end of the contract?  What you are suggesting is that OU simply IGNORE its contractual obligations. I suppose it would be different IF every player had the right to sign with a different team each year, but as it is, the CONTRACT is for 4 years provided the player meets his obligations.  Seems to me the school should have just as much integrity as is being asked of the player.

WhiskyKilo wrote:

CactusDave wrote: It's a glorified puppy mill.  That's all.  


The early 21st century version of the plantation considering that 90% of the recruits involved in the exploitation are African American teenage males.


It's a scam and ten or twenty years from now everyone will cop to it including the Nick Saban's of the world if he's still around.

I've often wondered how you can truly exploit a person if they are willing participants?  Are you implying that the athletes are so ignorant and stupid that they don't realize that they are being exploited?  Let's give them some credit here and acknowledge that they do know what is best for them, and they chose to play college football as opposed to do something else.

It's seems to me, in my logical thinking brain, that if a person felt he was being exploited, then he would just choose not to participate in that activity?

College football evolved to where it is today in order to financially support the institution, not to financially support the players.  Nor was college football created for the sole purpose of allowing players to build up to a career in the NFL.  Nobody is "owed" anything.  They are promised an education, and subsistence support while pursuing that education (as long as they fulfill their promise of being an ambassador for the school and taking care of business in the classroom and working hard as an athlete).

I wish the NFL had a rookie league, that way players had an avenue to get paid while perfecting their craft toward making it in the NFL.  The NFL is the problem here, not the colleges.  They, the NFL, wants the system as it is because they are getting what amounts to a free minor league.

Bottom line:  It is not the institution's responsibility to ensure that athletes receive a certain percentage of the revenue generated.  That money is rightfully owned by the institution and should be passed on to all of the students in the form of a better education and experience (obviously, some of that money needs to be put back into the program to ensure future viability).  If an athlete does not like being a part of that greater good for his university and community, he should choose not to play, or petition the NFL to do something on his behalf, i.e. create a league for him and others to hone their craft while getting paid.

WhiskyKilo wrote:

POTFI wrote:

WhiskyKilo wrote: Life isn't fair, we all know that.  Nothing is guaranteed, even if it was promised to you.

So instead of complaining that what Bama is doing isn't ethical or barely skirting the rules, I say that OU should be signing just as many.

It is so easy to "get rid" of a player nowadays, you don't even have to try.  They will hang themselves through drugs, criminal behavior, refusing to work hard etc.

If a kid won't work hard, where is the crime in booting him off campus?  That is a life lesson.

So what happens if EVERY kid you signs works hard and fulfills HIS end of the contract?  What you are suggesting is that OU simply IGNORE its contractual obligations. I suppose it would be different IF every player had the right to sign with a different team each year, but as it is, the CONTRACT is for 4 years provided the player meets his obligations.  Seems to me the school should have just as much integrity as is being asked of the player.

I think we all know that EVERY kid fulfilling his obligation isn't even close to reality.  How many players has OU dismissed the last couple of years?  Is it up to 25 yet? 

I think that if a player signs with OU, and then it becomes evident that he can't play at this level, I think both parties, the program and the player, benefit from that player being removed from the team.  The program benefits because it opens an extra spot, and the player benefits by perhaps moving down to FCS or lower and competing at a level where he belongs.  Win-win.

POTFI wrote:

WhiskyKilo wrote:

POTFI wrote:

WhiskyKilo wrote: Life isn't fair, we all know that.  Nothing is guaranteed, even if it was promised to you.

So instead of complaining that what Bama is doing isn't ethical or barely skirting the rules, I say that OU should be signing just as many.

It is so easy to "get rid" of a player nowadays, you don't even have to try.  They will hang themselves through drugs, criminal behavior, refusing to work hard etc.

If a kid won't work hard, where is the crime in booting him off campus?  That is a life lesson.

So what happens if EVERY kid you signs works hard and fulfills HIS end of the contract?  What you are suggesting is that OU simply IGNORE its contractual obligations. I suppose it would be different IF every player had the right to sign with a different team each year, but as it is, the CONTRACT is for 4 years provided the player meets his obligations.  Seems to me the school should have just as much integrity as is being asked of the player.

I think we all know that EVERY kid fulfilling his obligation isn't even close to reality.  How many players has OU dismissed the last couple of years?  Is it up to 25 yet? 

I think that if a player signs with OU, and then it becomes evident that he can't play at this level, I think both parties, the program and the player, benefit from that player being removed from the team.  The program benefits because it opens an extra spot, and the player benefits by perhaps moving down to FCS or lower and competing at a level where he belongs.  Win-win.

I agree that not every kid fulfills his obligations, but you're suggesting that OU should actually PLAN for that and OVER-sign ... which MAY be OK some years, but it ALWAYS risks putting the University in a situation where they would be unable to fulfill THEIR contractual obligations.  In other words, OU would be gambling with their integrity.  Perhaps integrity is lower on your priority list than it is mine, but I would hate to see OU put itself in that situation.

CactusDave wrote:

WhiskyKilo wrote:

CactusDave wrote: It's a glorified puppy mill.  That's all.  


The early 21st century version of the plantation considering that 90% of the recruits involved in the exploitation are African American teenage males.


It's a scam and ten or twenty years from now everyone will cop to it including the Nick Saban's of the world if he's still around.

I've often wondered how you can truly exploit a person if they are willing participants?  Are you implying that the athletes are so ignorant and stupid that they don't realize that they are being exploited?  Let's give them some credit here and acknowledge that they do know what is best for them, and they chose to play college football as opposed to do something else.

It's seems to me, in my logical thinking brain, that if a person felt he was being exploited, then he would just choose not to participate in that activity?

College football evolved to where it is today in order to financially support the institution, not to financially support the players.  Nor was college football created for the sole purpose of allowing players to build up to a career in the NFL.  Nobody is "owed" anything.  They are promised an education, and subsistence support while pursuing that education (as long as they fulfill their promise of being an ambassador for the school and taking care of business in the classroom and working hard as an athlete).

I wish the NFL had a rookie league, that way players had an avenue to get paid while perfecting their craft toward making it in the NFL.  The NFL is the problem here, not the colleges.  They, the NFL, wants the system as it is because they are getting what amounts to a free minor league.

Bottom line:  It is not the institution's responsibility to ensure that athletes receive a certain percentage of the revenue generated.  That money is rightfully owned by the institution and should be passed on to all of the students in the form of a better education and experience (obviously, some of that money needs to be put back into the program to ensure future viability).  If an athlete does not like being a part of that greater good for his university and community, he should choose not to play, or petition the NFL to do something on his behalf, i.e. create a league for him and others to hone their craft while getting paid.

Preposterous nonsense Kilo!!! 

If a kid's dream is to play American football at the professional level (which if you're a blue chip high school 4 or 5 star recruit, this is invariably the case), then the only viable path available to you is to attend a prominent university and play football there. 

That's it!  There are no other avenues to speak of in this country that aren't wrought with risk. 

90% of the top, cream of the crop kids we're talking about here are African American teenage males who come from difficult financial circumstances, the majority of whom are challenged academically, don't have the tools or the discipline to take advantage, much less maximize the experience of an institution for higher learning. 

As a consequence, very, very few of them would choose to attend a university if there were another viable choice to be made. 

Take a look at the graduation rates and tell me I'm wrong.  If college football had the "one and done" rule in effect like college basketball, most of these blue chip kids would be gone after a year.    

These kids aren't "promised an education" or a scholarship or anything else except a one year open ended arrangement.  That's the extent of the contractual commitment from the schools and coaches. 

"If we're happy with you, we'll keep you around....If not?  Have a nice life"   
Meanwhile if the kid is unhappy after a year, well it's a whole different ballgame then.  Then there are strings attached.  "You can only leave if you sit out a year and then we get to decide where you can and can't go".  

So if this is America and according to you "nobody's owed anything" why is it the kids don't have the same flexibility to get out of a deal after one year that the schools and coaches reserve for themselves?  

Why do the kids owe the schools anything after one year if the schools don't owe them anything? 
     
And this notion of financial entitlement on the part of the schools?

If I was attending a university on a film scholarship and I happened to write the script for, oh let's say "Rocky", in what alternate universe would the university be able to claim the rights to all the proceeds when box office dollars started to roll in? 

When put to the reasonable persons test, none of this makes any sense. 

It's nothing more than a carefully woven set of contrived conditions that apply exclusively to the collegiate athletes in the money making sports.  

It's no accident.

If you can't see that this is exploitation in every sense of the word.  Then I don't know what other examples I can give.      
 

TomFromBama wrote:

But lets look at the numbers for a minute.   102 is a "Puppy Mill" where recruits are deceived, parents are lied to, players are cut or chased off every day, yada, yada, yada.   But 97 is an example of "Doing things the right way."

TomFromBama wrote:

TeddyDvor wrote: Per Scout for the years 2013 - 2010 Alabama has signed 99 players and OU has signed 97 players.

What's that sound?

Crickets chirping?

 (look, I hope nobody is mad - I'm smiling while I type these posts. It's really NOT a "religious crusade" for me!   I know why people "hate" Alabama, and since I'm also a fan of OU, its just fun to me to see the lengths some will go to not admit it.    )

And in the spirit of fairness, Teddy, I'll admit I was shocked by your post, so I counted myself ;)- and some full disclosure here, I counted Alabama with 102 in the past 4 classes, OU with 97, Michigan (who we played last August) with 98, y'all's friends at Okie Lite with 100, and Washington (where we hired our new OC from) also with 102.

I didn't check any other SEC teams, its likely that someone signed more than 102.  I won't waste anyone's time trying to defend ANYTHING that goes on at aubarn, Ole Miss, UGa, etc - I like them even LESS than you do.

But lets look at the numbers for a minute.   102 is a "Puppy Mill" where recruits are deceived, parents are lied to, players are cut or chased off every day, yada, yada, yada.   But 97 is an example of "Doing things the right way."

Its 1.25 players per class more than OU signed, and we don't know how many of those 102 are actually invited walk-ons who were allowed to "Sign" with their HS classmates but were never promised a scholarship - and yes, that happens.  I can't tell you off the top of my head how many didn't qualify and went to JUCO instead, or decided to play pro baseball, etc.

1.25 More signees per class than OU, but because of that, Saban is a no good POS, snake-in-the-grass, liar?

Y'all see what I'm seeing, right?  Saban is a rotten human being and a Dirty CHEATER, because he "signs" 1.25 more recruits a year than Bob Stoops????

Comments?

bamacap wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

TeddyDvor wrote: Per Scout for the years 2013 - 2010 Alabama has signed 99 players and OU has signed 97 players.

What's that sound?

Crickets chirping?

 (look, I hope nobody is mad - I'm smiling while I type these posts. It's really NOT a "religious crusade" for me!   I know why people "hate" Alabama, and since I'm also a fan of OU, its just fun to me to see the lengths some will go to not admit it.    )

And in the spirit of fairness, Teddy, I'll admit I was shocked by your post, so I counted myself ;)- and some full disclosure here, I counted Alabama with 102 in the past 4 classes, OU with 97, Michigan (who we played last August) with 98, y'all's friends at Okie Lite with 100, and Washington (where we hired our new OC from) also with 102.

I didn't check any other SEC teams, its likely that someone signed more than 102.  I won't waste anyone's time trying to defend ANYTHING that goes on at aubarn, Ole Miss, UGa, etc - I like them even LESS than you do.

But lets look at the numbers for a minute.   102 is a "Puppy Mill" where recruits are deceived, parents are lied to, players are cut or chased off every day, yada, yada, yada.   But 97 is an example of "Doing things the right way."

Its 1.25 players per class more than OU signed, and we don't know how many of those 102 are actually invited walk-ons who were allowed to "Sign" with their HS classmates but were never promised a scholarship - and yes, that happens.  I can't tell you off the top of my head how many didn't qualify and went to JUCO instead, or decided to play pro baseball, etc.

1.25 More signees per class than OU, but because of that, Saban is a no good POS, snake-in-the-grass, liar?

Y'all see what I'm seeing, right?  Saban is a rotten human being and a Dirty CHEATER, because he "signs" 1.25 more recruits a year than Bob Stoops????

Comments?

Who knew the magin from satan to saint was so narrow. lol  In all seriousness, I think that stat drives home the "over exaggeration" of Sabans recruiting.Furthermore, when you consider the # of Jrs who have left Sabans program over the past few years, he's pretty much on par with a number of programs.  Inventing stories and placing him as the cover boy for oversigning simply makes his success easier for the haters to stomach.  I suppose if Bama was still mired in mediocrity and Udub was on a run, Sark would be the devil!

ekalika wrote: With 70 returning players, he signed 25 recruits. Oversigning.com documents exactly how he got to 85. He is the Poster boy for poor recruiting pra;) 
ctices because he does them, not due to any kind of mythos.

bamacap wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

TeddyDvor wrote: Per Scout for the years 2013 - 2010 Alabama has signed 99 players and OU has signed 97 players.

What's that sound?

Crickets chirping?

 (look, I hope nobody is mad - I;)'m smiling while I type these posts. It's really NOT a "religious crusade" for me!   I know why people "hate" Alabama, and since I'm also a fan of OU, its just fun to me to see the lengths some will go to not admit it.    )

And in the spirit of fairness, Teddy, I'll admit I was shocked by your post, so I counted myself ;)- and some full disclosure here, I counted Alabama with 102 in the past 4 classes, OU with 97, Michigan (who we played last August) with 98, y'all's friends at Okie Lite with 100, and Washington (where we hired our new OC from) also with 102.

I didn't check any other SEC teams, its likely that someone signed more than 102.  I won't waste anyone's time trying to defend ANYTHING that goes on at aubarn, Ole Miss, UGa, etc - I like them even LESS than you do.

But lets look at the numbers for a minute.   102 is a "Puppy Mill" where recruits are deceived, parents are lied to, players are cut or chased off every day, yada, yada, yada.   But 97 is an example of "Doing things the right way."

Its 1.25 players per class more than OU signed, and we don't know how many of those 102 are actually invited walk-ons who were allowed to "Sign" with their HS classmates but were never promised a scholarship - and yes, that happens.  I can't tell you off the top of my head how many didn't qualify and went to JUCO instead, or decided to play pro baseball, etc.

1.25 More signees per class than OU, but because of that, Saban is a no good POS, snake-in-the-grass, liar?

Y'all see what I'm seeing, right?  Saban is a rotten human being and a Dirty CHEATER, because he "signs" 1.25 more recruits a year than Bob Stoops????

Comments?

Who knew the magin from satan to saint was so narrow. lol  In all seriousness, I think that stat drives home the "over exaggeration" of Sabans recruiting.Furthermore, when you consider the # of Jrs who have left Sabans program over the past few years, he's pretty much on par with a number of programs.  Inventing stories and placing him as the cover boy for oversigning simply makes his success easier for the haters to stomach.  I suppose if Bama was still mired in mediocrity and Udub was on a run, Sark would be the devil!

bamacap wrote:

ekalika wrote: With 70 returning players, he signed 25 recruits. Oversigning.com documents exactly how he got to 85. He is the Poster boy for poor recruiting pra;) 
ctices because he does them, not due to any kind of mythos.

bamacap wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

TeddyDvor wrote: Per Scout for the years 2013 - 2010 Alabama has signed 99 players and OU has signed 97 players.

What's that sound?

Crickets chirping?

 (look, I hope nobody is mad - I;)'m smiling while I type these posts. It's really NOT a "religious crusade" for me!   I know why people "hate" Alabama, and since I'm also a fan of OU, its just fun to me to see the lengths some will go to not admit it.    )

And in the spirit of fairness, Teddy, I'll admit I was shocked by your post, so I counted myself ;)- and some full disclosure here, I counted Alabama with 102 in the past 4 classes, OU with 97, Michigan (who we played last August) with 98, y'all's friends at Okie Lite with 100, and Washington (where we hired our new OC from) also with 102.

I didn't check any other SEC teams, its likely that someone signed more than 102.  I won't waste anyone's time trying to defend ANYTHING that goes on at aubarn, Ole Miss, UGa, etc - I like them even LESS than you do.

But lets look at the numbers for a minute.   102 is a "Puppy Mill" where recruits are deceived, parents are lied to, players are cut or chased off every day, yada, yada, yada.   But 97 is an example of "Doing things the right way."

Its 1.25 players per class more than OU signed, and we don't know how many of those 102 are actually invited walk-ons who were allowed to "Sign" with their HS classmates but were never promised a scholarship - and yes, that happens.  I can't tell you off the top of my head how many didn't qualify and went to JUCO instead, or decided to play pro baseball, etc.

1.25 More signees per class than OU, but because of that, Saban is a no good POS, snake-in-the-grass, liar?

Y'all see what I'm seeing, right?  Saban is a rotten human being and a Dirty CHEATER, because he "signs" 1.25 more recruits a year than Bob Stoops????

Comments?

Who knew the magin from satan to saint was so narrow. lol  In all seriousness, I think that stat drives home the "over exaggeration" of Sabans recruiting.Furthermore, when you consider the # of Jrs who have left Sabans program over the past few years, he's pretty much on par with a number of programs.  Inventing stories and placing him as the cover boy for oversigning simply makes his success easier for the haters to stomach.  I suppose if Bama was still mired in mediocrity and Udub was on a run, Sark would be the devil!

Overexaggerated.com doesnt know how many 5th yr Srs are moving on to start their careers or how many guys are xferring or how many of those commits will be academically inelgible.....but you can bet your arse Saban does!  ;)Saban stays on top of his program and chooses to play with a full deck of 85, or at least close to it, as opposed to pulling a Mark Richt and playing with 72.  According to the #'s, Coach Stoops must choose to do the same.

BootleggersBoy wrote: Again with this? Enough diatribe. Answer these questions, please.

How many greyshirts does Alabama have per year compared to others schools?  Saban avgs approx 2 per year.  I dont know what other schools avg, some coaches arent smart enough to offer greyshirts to talented but underdeveloped athletes.

How many medical hardship schollies does Alabama pay for compared to other schools?  Sabans avg is approx 2.2 per year........on par with most programs.  Noteworthy....that avg reflects 3 kids he inherrited from Shula.

How many under performing athletes do not have their scholarship renewed each year at Alabama compared to other schools? Well, Bamas xferr #'s are roughly 3-4 per year......again, on par with many.  

Why did Saban just start offering four year schollie in 2012? Didnt know he did.  If so, perhaps to keep his opposition from having a selling point that he didnt. ;)

Saban runs his team where the best are givne first opportunity to perform or they get greyshirted. Once in, if the don't perform, they are cut. He is Running like an NFL shop and it is very effective.  (Please find these "cuts".  To date, I havent heard of a kid claiming to be cut or forced out.)  Based on the #'s provided, if Saban is cutting, Stoops must be as well. ;)

ekalika wrote: Sample bias. Let's try a larger sample.
Since 20;).08:
Bama
2008- 32
2009-27
2010-29
2011-22
2012- 26
2013- 25

OU
2008-21
2009-23
2010- 29
2011- 19
2012- 25
2013-24

Here is what I see: Bama signed more players than OU 5 of the last 6 classes, and tied 1 time. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
Grayshirts, and rescinding scholarships come commits are not part of these numbers btw- which is a practice that is well documented within the Bama program. I think most Bama fans dismiss this very real problem with "jealousy", when in fact it is part of the rise of Bama. This and the hiring of a full time evaluation staff under a different heading before the NCAA mandated it as unregulated are both tools Bama's program has used to skirt ethics and lessen their misses. It is what it is. By now, like the oregon situation with agents in texas, the prize has already been gotten, and very little can be done about it. Let us not act like it is right, or clean though.

bamacap wrote:

ekalika wrote: With 70 returning players, he signed 25 recruits. Oversigning.com documents exactly how he got to 85. He is the Poster boy for poor recruiting pra;) 
ctices because he does them, not due to any kind of mythos.

bamacap wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

TeddyDvor wrote: Per Scout for the years 2013 - 2010 Alabama has signed 99 players and OU has signed 97 players.

What's that sound?

Crickets chirping?

 (look, I hope nobody is mad - I;)'m smiling while I type these posts. It's really NOT a "religious crusade" for me!   I know why people "hate" Alabama, and since I'm also a fan of OU, its just fun to me to see the lengths some will go to not admit it.    )

And in the spirit of fairness, Teddy, I'll admit I was shocked by your post, so I counted myself ;)- and some full disclosure here, I counted Alabama with 102 in the past 4 classes, OU with 97, Michigan (who we played last August) with 98, y'all's friends at Okie Lite with 100, and Washington (where we hired our new OC from) also with 102.

I didn't check any other SEC teams, its likely that someone signed more than 102.  I won't waste anyone's time trying to defend ANYTHING that goes on at aubarn, Ole Miss, UGa, etc - I like them even LESS than you do.

But lets look at the numbers for a minute.   102 is a "Puppy Mill" where recruits are deceived, parents are lied to, players are cut or chased off every day, yada, yada, yada.   But 97 is an example of "Doing things the right way."

Its 1.25 players per class more than OU signed, and we don't know how many of those 102 are actually invited walk-ons who were allowed to "Sign" with their HS classmates but were never promised a scholarship - and yes, that happens.  I can't tell you off the top of my head how many didn't qualify and went to JUCO instead, or decided to play pro baseball, etc.

1.25 More signees per class than OU, but because of that, Saban is a no good POS, snake-in-the-grass, liar?

Y'all see what I'm seeing, right?  Saban is a rotten human being and a Dirty CHEATER, because he "signs" 1.25 more recruits a year than Bob Stoops????

Comments?

Who knew the magin from satan to saint was so narrow. lol  In all seriousness, I think that stat drives home the "over exaggeration" of Sabans recruiting.Furthermore, when you consider the # of Jrs who have left Sabans program over the past few years, he's pretty much on par with a number of programs.  Inventing stories and placing him as the cover boy for oversigning simply makes his success easier for the haters to stomach.  I suppose if Bama was still mired in mediocrity and Udub was on a run, Sark would be the devil!

Overexaggerated.com doesnt know how many 5th yr Srs are moving on to start their careers or how many guys are xferring or how many of those commits will be academically inelgible.....but you can bet your arse Saban does!  ;)Saban stays on top of his program and chooses to play with a full deck of 85, or at least close to it, as opposed to pulling a Mark Richt and playing with 72.  According to the #'s, Coach Stoops must choose to do the same.

ross789 wrote: Bama has also signed 2 or so JC players per year and has 3 or so go to the NFL early as well.

BootleggersBoy wrote:

BootleggersBoy wrote: Again with this? Enough diatribe. Answer these questions, please.

How many greyshirts does Alabama have per year compared to others schools?

How many medical hardship schollies does Alabama pay for compared to other schools?

How many under performing athletes do not have their scholarship renewed each year at Alabama compared to other schools?

Why did Saban just start offering four year schollie in 2012?

Saban runs his team where the best are givne first opportunity to perform or they get greyshirted. Once in, if the don't perform, they are cut. He is Running like an NFL shop and it is very effective.

What's that sound?

Crickets chirping?