Sooner1214 wrote:

Not surprising that you would justify anything and everything Saban does.  No one has a problem with kicking bad apples off a team, but that isn't all that Saban does.

Answer this hypothetical if you can:  If Saban was not having his level of success, but operated exactly as he does today, can you honestly say that you would like the guy and what he stands for and as a representative of your athletic program.

Or to ask it another way, if you take out HIS WINNING, is what is left, anything of an admirable quality that makes you proud of your university. 

My answer to the question is a resounding NO, as I believe that Saban offers nothing but winning.  To some, that is all that matters and at any cost.  For others, there is a larger picture in the big scheme of things.

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

Not surprising that you would justify anything and everything Saban does.  No one has a problem with kicking bad apples off a team, but that isn't all that Saban does.

Answer this hypothetical if you can:  If Saban was not having his level of success, but operated exactly as he does today, can you honestly say that you would like the guy and what he stands for and as a representative of your athletic program.

Or to ask it another way, if you take out HIS WINNING, is what is left, anything of an admirable quality that makes you proud of your university. 

My answer to the question is a resounding NO, as I believe that Saban offers nothing but winning.  To some, that is all that matters and at any cost.  For others, there is a larger picture in the big scheme of things.

If we accept the False premise that Nick Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him, then clearly the answer to your question is NO, and for me personally the answer would be NO, regardless of the records.

But that's just the problem with the whole "argument" - The Nick Saban of y'alls mythology is a horrible SOB that no decent person would want coaching their team, and no parent would let their child play for, regardless of the W/L records. 

But that mythology doesn't match the reality.  And its not even Close.

AAAAAANNND here's where I'll get off my soapbox, because at the end of the day, no one here is going to abandoned their cherished myths and accept reality, no matter what I say.

No one here cares about APR or GSR rates, about kids earning college degrees, about the number of guys who have signed NFL contracts in the past 5 years, or the NFL attrition rate of Saban's players compared to players from other schools.  No one cares about the Charities he sponsors or the time he gives to charitable causes.  No one cares about the young men who leave UA equipped to succeed in life outside of football. 

None of that really matters to y'all.   I get it.  Its a simple proposition:  Any coach who wins more games that OU simply MUST be cheating and MUST be a rotten person.  There's just no other Possible explanation.  Saban's a horrible POS because in your minds he HAS TO BE.

I get it.

Peace.

Tom:

Here is where your post falls apart:  I didn't care for Saban BEFORE he went to Bama and before he was having more success than OU.  So your premise is false.  I  saw how he operated before coming to Bama and I saw his arrogance and the
way he handled himself and teams that he coached and the way he left
programs.   Saban had a track record pre-Bama, remember?   


Why is it a false premise that Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him.  First of all that is merely your conclusion that it is false, so it also could be true. 
Secondly, your premise of Saban being "evil and hurting the young men who play
for him" is a straw man that you created so that you could seek to destroy a
more inflammatory figure than was being portrayed.

I never characterized Saban as an evil guy who hurts all his players, although he has likely hurt some, those that he finds disposable to his purposes.    What I have said is
that Saban is a guy, not primarily guided by higher principles other than winning and he will stretch and push the envelope and he is willing to run over anyone or anything in
his way in order to accomplish his goals.  

I'm not sure that, that qualifies as "evil" and I suppose everyone has their own
definition of evil, but Saban is simply not a guy that I find with the type of
character that I would want running my program.  I think that if Bama fans were
gut level honest, they would have to admit that if Saban was exactly who he is,
but was not bringing home the crystal, then he would probably be intolerable and
not thought very highly of.

Oh, and you claim that none of those positive things that you attribute to Saban matter to his detractors, well I can turn that statement around and say that NONE OF SABAN'S INDISCRETIONS OR
WORSE MATTER TO BAMA FANS AS LONG AS HE IS BRINGING HOME THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS.  If you can't see that, then you are blinded by bias. 


Some fans are willing to sacrifice principle for a little crystal now and then.

Sooner1214 wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

Not surprising that you would justify anything and everything Saban does.  No one has a problem with kicking bad apples off a team, but that isn't all that Saban does.

Answer this hypothetical if you can:  If Saban was not having his level of success, but operated exactly as he does today, can you honestly say that you would like the guy and what he stands for and as a representative of your athletic program.

Or to ask it another way, if you take out HIS WINNING, is what is left, anything of an admirable quality that makes you proud of your university. 

My answer to the question is a resounding NO, as I believe that Saban offers nothing but winning.  To some, that is all that matters and at any cost.  For others, there is a larger picture in the big scheme of things.

If we accept the False premise that Nick Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him, then clearly the answer to your question is NO, and for me personally the answer would be NO, regardless of the records.

But that's just the problem with the whole "argument" - The Nick Saban of y'alls mythology is a horrible SOB that no decent person would want coaching their team, and no parent would let their child play for, regardless of the W/L records. 

But that mythology doesn't match the reality.  And its not even Close.

AAAAAANNND here's where I'll get off my soapbox, because at the end of the day, no one here is going to abandoned their cherished myths and accept reality, no matter what I say.

No one here cares about APR or GSR rates, about kids earning college degrees, about the number of guys who have signed NFL contracts in the past 5 years, or the NFL attrition rate of Saban's players compared to players from other schools.  No one cares about the Charities he sponsors or the time he gives to charitable causes.  No one cares about the young men who leave UA equipped to succeed in life outside of football. 

None of that really matters to y'all.   I get it.  Its a simple proposition:  Any coach who wins more games that OU simply MUST be cheating and MUST be a rotten person.  There's just no other Possible explanation.  Saban's a horrible POS because in your minds he HAS TO BE.

I get it.

Peace.

Tom:

Here is where your post falls apart:  I didn't care for Saban BEFORE he went to Bama and before he was having more success than OU.  So your premise is false.  I  saw how he operated before coming to Bama and I saw his arrogance and the
way he handled himself and teams that he coached and the way he left
programs.   Saban had a track record pre-Bama, remember?   


Why is it a false premise that Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him.  First of all that is merely your conclusion that it is false, so it also could be true. 
Secondly, your premise of Saban being "evil and hurting the young men who play
for him" is a straw man that you created so that you could seek to destroy a
more inflammatory figure than was being portrayed.

I never characterized Saban as an evil guy who hurts all his players, although he has likely hurt some, those that he finds disposable to his purposes.    What I have said is
that Saban is a guy, not primarily guided by higher principles other than winning and he will stretch and push the envelope and he is willing to run over anyone or anything in
his way in order to accomplish his goals.  

I'm not sure that, that qualifies as "evil" and I suppose everyone has their own
definition of evil, but Saban is simply not a guy that I find with the type of
character that I would want running my program.  I think that if Bama fans were
gut level honest, they would have to admit that if Saban was exactly who he is,
but was not bringing home the crystal, then he would probably be intolerable and
not thought very highly of.

Oh, and you claim that none of those positive things that you attribute to Saban matter to his detractors, well I can turn that statement around and say that NONE OF SABAN'S INDISCRETIONS OR
WORSE MATTER TO BAMA FANS AS LONG AS HE IS BRINGING HOME THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS.  If you can't see that, then you are blinded by bias. 


Some fans are willing to sacrifice principle for a little crystal now and then.

No flames, 1214, but here's where YOUR argument falls apart.  I seem to remember OU fans having some serious, uh - shall we say, "hard feelings" about the previous school Nick coached, prior to his stint with the Miami Dolphins, so don't pretend to be all rational and stuff!     - I can WELL remember the angry and Stridently Irrational tone of this board back in January 2004!  LOL!!!! 

Y'all thought Saban was the Devil back then, TOO!!!  So I realize its not an Anti-Alabama thing going on - but I also still realize where the animus comes from.

And again, I have to ask what the "Indiscretions or worse" really are?    That he's screwing over players?  Lying to families?  Breaking NCAA rules??  Oh wait, I do remember that time he had a 20 second conversation a Junior on a HS campus a couple years ago!!  What a black-hearted villain he was to do that!!! Probably ruined that kid's life!  I'm sure Barry Switzer would never have committed a heinous crime like that, right?    
OH wait!  I know - the way he's left every previous program on probation!!!!   Ooops - sorry, that was Lou Holtz. . . . .  

but where was I?  Oh yea -   Now seriously - you tell me what "principles" I'm sacrificing when I tell you I'm PROUD to have the best College Football coach in the past 30 years coaching at my Alma Mater, and I'll tell you why I believe you are mistaken, despite your good intentions to save my soul.  ok?   

But one caveat - if you are asking me to justify ANYTHING that happened before 2007, I won't,  and I officially CONCEDE any point you want to make about Nick being the devil incarnate at Michigan State, LSux, or Miami.   Ok? 

Sooner1214 wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

Not surprising that you would justify anything and everything Saban does.  No one has a problem with kicking bad apples off a team, but that isn't all that Saban does.

Answer this hypothetical if you can:  If Saban was not having his level of success, but operated exactly as he does today, can you honestly say that you would like the guy and what he stands for and as a representative of your athletic program.

Or to ask it another way, if you take out HIS WINNING, is what is left, anything of an admirable quality that makes you proud of your university. 

My answer to the question is a resounding NO, as I believe that Saban offers nothing but winning.  To some, that is all that matters and at any cost.  For others, there is a larger picture in the big scheme of things.

If we accept the False premise that Nick Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him, then clearly the answer to your question is NO, and for me personally the answer would be NO, regardless of the records.

But that's just the problem with the whole "argument" - The Nick Saban of y'alls mythology is a horrible SOB that no decent person would want coaching their team, and no parent would let their child play for, regardless of the W/L records. 

But that mythology doesn't match the reality.  And its not even Close.

AAAAAANNND here's where I'll get off my soapbox, because at the end of the day, no one here is going to abandoned their cherished myths and accept reality, no matter what I say.

No one here cares about APR or GSR rates, about kids earning college degrees, about the number of guys who have signed NFL contracts in the past 5 years, or the NFL attrition rate of Saban's players compared to players from other schools.  No one cares about the Charities he sponsors or the time he gives to charitable causes.  No one cares about the young men who leave UA equipped to succeed in life outside of football. 

None of that really matters to y'all.   I get it.  Its a simple proposition:  Any coach who wins more games that OU simply MUST be cheating and MUST be a rotten person.  There's just no other Possible explanation.  Saban's a horrible POS because in your minds he HAS TO BE.

I get it.

Peace.

Tom:

Here is where your post falls apart:  I didn't care for Saban BEFORE he went to Bama and before he was having more success than OU.  So your premise is false.  I  saw how he operated before coming to Bama and I saw his arrogance and the
way he handled himself and teams that he coached and the way he left
programs.   Saban had a track record pre-Bama, remember?   


Why is it a false premise that Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him.  First of all that is merely your conclusion that it is false, so it also could be true. 
Secondly, your premise of Saban being "evil and hurting the young men who play
for him" is a straw man that you created so that you could seek to destroy a
more inflammatory figure than was being portrayed.

I never characterized Saban as an evil guy who hurts all his players, although he has likely hurt some, those that he finds disposable to his purposes.    What I have said is
that Saban is a guy, not primarily guided by higher principles other than winning and he will stretch and push the envelope and he is willing to run over anyone or anything in
his way in order to accomplish his goals.  

I'm not sure that, that qualifies as "evil" and I suppose everyone has their own
definition of evil, but Saban is simply not a guy that I find with the type of
character that I would want running my program.  I think that if Bama fans were
gut level honest, they would have to admit that if Saban was exactly who he is,
but was not bringing home the crystal, then he would probably be intolerable and
not thought very highly of.

Oh, and you claim that none of those positive things that you attribute to Saban matter to his detractors, well I can turn that statement around and say that NONE OF SABAN'S INDISCRETIONS OR
WORSE MATTER TO BAMA FANS AS LONG AS HE IS BRINGING HOME THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS.  If you can't see that, then you are blinded by bias. 


Some fans are willing to sacrifice principle for a little crystal now and then.

Count me as one of those fans that would sacrifice principle for a little crystal.That's the only reason we are fans of OU football!Winning is all that matters!

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

Not surprising that you would justify anything and everything Saban does.  No one has a problem with kicking bad apples off a team, but that isn't all that Saban does.

Answer this hypothetical if you can:  If Saban was not having his level of success, but operated exactly as he does today, can you honestly say that you would like the guy and what he stands for and as a representative of your athletic program.

Or to ask it another way, if you take out HIS WINNING, is what is left, anything of an admirable quality that makes you proud of your university. 

My answer to the question is a resounding NO, as I believe that Saban offers nothing but winning.  To some, that is all that matters and at any cost.  For others, there is a larger picture in the big scheme of things.

If we accept the False premise that Nick Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him, then clearly the answer to your question is NO, and for me personally the answer would be NO, regardless of the records.

But that's just the problem with the whole "argument" - The Nick Saban of y'alls mythology is a horrible SOB that no decent person would want coaching their team, and no parent would let their child play for, regardless of the W/L records. 

But that mythology doesn't match the reality.  And its not even Close.

AAAAAANNND here's where I'll get off my soapbox, because at the end of the day, no one here is going to abandoned their cherished myths and accept reality, no matter what I say.

No one here cares about APR or GSR rates, about kids earning college degrees, about the number of guys who have signed NFL contracts in the past 5 years, or the NFL attrition rate of Saban's players compared to players from other schools.  No one cares about the Charities he sponsors or the time he gives to charitable causes.  No one cares about the young men who leave UA equipped to succeed in life outside of football. 

None of that really matters to y'all.   I get it.  Its a simple proposition:  Any coach who wins more games that OU simply MUST be cheating and MUST be a rotten person.  There's just no other Possible explanation.  Saban's a horrible POS because in your minds he HAS TO BE.

I get it.

Peace.

Tom:

Here is where your post falls apart:  I didn't care for Saban BEFORE he went to Bama and before he was having more success than OU.  So your premise is false.  I  saw how he operated before coming to Bama and I saw his arrogance and the
way he handled himself and teams that he coached and the way he left
programs.   Saban had a track record pre-Bama, remember?   


Why is it a false premise that Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him.  First of all that is merely your conclusion that it is false, so it also could be true. 
Secondly, your premise of Saban being "evil and hurting the young men who play
for him" is a straw man that you created so that you could seek to destroy a
more inflammatory figure than was being portrayed.

I never characterized Saban as an evil guy who hurts all his players, although he has likely hurt some, those that he finds disposable to his purposes.    What I have said is
that Saban is a guy, not primarily guided by higher principles other than winning and he will stretch and push the envelope and he is willing to run over anyone or anything in
his way in order to accomplish his goals.  

I'm not sure that, that qualifies as "evil" and I suppose everyone has their own
definition of evil, but Saban is simply not a guy that I find with the type of
character that I would want running my program.  I think that if Bama fans were
gut level honest, they would have to admit that if Saban was exactly who he is,
but was not bringing home the crystal, then he would probably be intolerable and
not thought very highly of.

Oh, and you claim that none of those positive things that you attribute to Saban matter to his detractors, well I can turn that statement around and say that NONE OF SABAN'S INDISCRETIONS OR
WORSE MATTER TO BAMA FANS AS LONG AS HE IS BRINGING HOME THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS.  If you can't see that, then you are blinded by bias. 


Some fans are willing to sacrifice principle for a little crystal now and then.

No flames, 1214, but here's where YOUR argument falls apart.  I seem to remember OU fans having some serious, uh - shall we say, "hard feelings" about the previous school Nick coached, prior to his stint with the Miami Dolphins, so don't pretend to be all rational and stuff!     - I can WELL remember the angry and Stridently Irrational tone of this board back in January 2004!  LOL!!!! 

Y'all thought Saban was the Devil back then, TOO!!!  So I realize its not an Anti-Alabama thing going on - but I also still realize where the animus comes from.

And again, I have to ask what the "Indiscretions or worse" really are?    That he's screwing over players?  Lying to families?  Breaking NCAA rules??  Oh wait, I do remember that time he had a 20 second conversation a Junior on a HS campus a couple years ago!!  What a black-hearted villain he was to do that!!! Probably ruined that kid's life!  I'm sure Barry Switzer would never have committed a heinous crime like that, right?    
OH wait!  I know - the way he's left every previous program on probation!!!!   Ooops - sorry, that was Lou Holtz. . . . .  

but where was I?  Oh yea -   Now seriously - you tell me what "principles" I'm sacrificing when I tell you I'm PROUD to have the best College Football coach in the past 30 years coaching at my Alma Mater, and I'll tell you why I believe you are mistaken, despite your good intentions to save my soul.  ok?   

But one caveat - if you are asking me to justify ANYTHING that happened before 2007, I won't,  and I officially CONCEDE any point you want to make about Nick being the devil incarnate at Michigan State, LSux, or Miami.   Ok? 

Actually MY ARGUMENT DOESN'T FALL APART as you claim because your premise is flawed.  You make the error of trying to lump me in with ALL OU FANS HAVING HARD FEELINGS FOR SABAN AS A RESULT OF HIM COACHING AT LSU.    That is a reasoning fallacy on your part.  You also erroneously conclude even for those that may have had hard feelings when he coached at LSU, that they did not hold Saban in high esteem because of LSU beating OU.   Of course, you can't know those person's reasons.

My views of Saban center around his persona, arrogance, and alot in how he handled the situation with Miami.     I've found over the years that my intutition serves me very well in evaluting people.   Saban exudes sleaze to me.  That's just the way I see it. You may not like this view, but it is my assessment.  You're free to have a different one obviously.

By the way, I feel the same way about Lane Kiffin in regard to the sleaze factor.  I also have the same view of John Calipari and other coaches that I could name.

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

Not surprising that you would justify anything and everything Saban does.  No one has a problem with kicking bad apples off a team, but that isn't all that Saban does.

Answer this hypothetical if you can:  If Saban was not having his level of success, but operated exactly as he does today, can you honestly say that you would like the guy and what he stands for and as a representative of your athletic program.

Or to ask it another way, if you take out HIS WINNING, is what is left, anything of an admirable quality that makes you proud of your university. 

My answer to the question is a resounding NO, as I believe that Saban offers nothing but winning.  To some, that is all that matters and at any cost.  For others, there is a larger picture in the big scheme of things.

If we accept the False premise that Nick Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him, then clearly the answer to your question is NO, and for me personally the answer would be NO, regardless of the records.

But that's just the problem with the whole "argument" - The Nick Saban of y'alls mythology is a horrible SOB that no decent person would want coaching their team, and no parent would let their child play for, regardless of the W/L records. 

But that mythology doesn't match the reality.  And its not even Close.

AAAAAANNND here's where I'll get off my soapbox, because at the end of the day, no one here is going to abandoned their cherished myths and accept reality, no matter what I say.

No one here cares about APR or GSR rates, about kids earning college degrees, about the number of guys who have signed NFL contracts in the past 5 years, or the NFL attrition rate of Saban's players compared to players from other schools.  No one cares about the Charities he sponsors or the time he gives to charitable causes.  No one cares about the young men who leave UA equipped to succeed in life outside of football. 

None of that really matters to y'all.   I get it.  Its a simple proposition:  Any coach who wins more games that OU simply MUST be cheating and MUST be a rotten person.  There's just no other Possible explanation.  Saban's a horrible POS because in your minds he HAS TO BE.

I get it.

Peace.

It's another example of the old saying "Success breeds contempt."

gyokie wrote: 83 minutes ago via 247Sports Mobile

I've posted this once already, but the NCAA allows 85 scholarship players on a cfb roster, and 25 to be signed each year. In recent years the SEC began taking advantage of loopholes in the SEC regulations and violating those scholarship limits, giving it a dramatic competitive advantage. The national media is too dumb to report on this. It would be like the NFL allowing the NFC East teams three extra picks each round of the draft.
According to Tulane Law School’s sports law program, SEC teams signed 321 more players than the Big Ten over the previous nine seasons. For example, when Ohio State played Arkansas in the 2011 Sugar Bowl, Arkansas had signed 30 more players than Ohio State over the previous four years.
The way it works, simply, is if Alabama has 18 available openings (per the NCAA’s 85-scholarship limit), they will sign as many players as they want on February’s National Signing Day. If they sign 32 players, they have to create 14 spots before fall practice starts (the date the NCAA counts the numbers). So they CUT 14 players. They don’t call it “cutting” because the shock of that would lead to rule changes. They don’t release their scholarship numbers publicly, but the math is there for others to figure out. Some have done that. In 2010-2011, Alabama cut 21 players. They’re listed as “transfers” or “medical redshirts.” Some of the cut players have gone public with their stories.
They also regularly have incoming recruits “grayshirt” at the last minute (the school revokes the scholarship offer just before fall practice, makes the kid pay his own way or transfer – which is impossible because other programs are full – and be a practice-only player with limited rights until maybe getting a scholarship later).

 

rebelreal wrote: Tom - I heard you on Dusty and Teddys show last week bud! You did great!

Sooner1214 wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

Not surprising that you would justify anything and everything Saban does.  No one has a problem with kicking bad apples off a team, but that isn't all that Saban does.

Answer this hypothetical if you can:  If Saban was not having his level of success, but operated exactly as he does today, can you honestly say that you would like the guy and what he stands for and as a representative of your athletic program.

Or to ask it another way, if you take out HIS WINNING, is what is left, anything of an admirable quality that makes you proud of your university. 

My answer to the question is a resounding NO, as I believe that Saban offers nothing but winning.  To some, that is all that matters and at any cost.  For others, there is a larger picture in the big scheme of things.

If we accept the False premise that Nick Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him, then clearly the answer to your question is NO, and for me personally the answer would be NO, regardless of the records.

But that's just the problem with the whole "argument" - The Nick Saban of y'alls mythology is a horrible SOB that no decent person would want coaching their team, and no parent would let their child play for, regardless of the W/L records. 

But that mythology doesn't match the reality.  And its not even Close.

AAAAAANNND here's where I'll get off my soapbox, because at the end of the day, no one here is going to abandoned their cherished myths and accept reality, no matter what I say.

No one here cares about APR or GSR rates, about kids earning college degrees, about the number of guys who have signed NFL contracts in the past 5 years, or the NFL attrition rate of Saban's players compared to players from other schools.  No one cares about the Charities he sponsors or the time he gives to charitable causes.  No one cares about the young men who leave UA equipped to succeed in life outside of football. 

None of that really matters to y'all.   I get it.  Its a simple proposition:  Any coach who wins more games that OU simply MUST be cheating and MUST be a rotten person.  There's just no other Possible explanation.  Saban's a horrible POS because in your minds he HAS TO BE.

I get it.

Peace.

Tom:

Here is where your post falls apart:  I didn't care for Saban BEFORE he went to Bama and before he was having more success than OU.  So your premise is false.  I  saw how he operated before coming to Bama and I saw his arrogance and the
way he handled himself and teams that he coached and the way he left
programs.   Saban had a track record pre-Bama, remember?   


Why is it a false premise that Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him.  First of all that is merely your conclusion that it is false, so it also could be true. 
Secondly, your premise of Saban being "evil and hurting the young men who play
for him" is a straw man that you created so that you could seek to destroy a
more inflammatory figure than was being portrayed.

I never characterized Saban as an evil guy who hurts all his players, although he has likely hurt some, those that he finds disposable to his purposes.    What I have said is
that Saban is a guy, not primarily guided by higher principles other than winning and he will stretch and push the envelope and he is willing to run over anyone or anything in
his way in order to accomplish his goals.  

I'm not sure that, that qualifies as "evil" and I suppose everyone has their own
definition of evil, but Saban is simply not a guy that I find with the type of
character that I would want running my program.  I think that if Bama fans were
gut level honest, they would have to admit that if Saban was exactly who he is,
but was not bringing home the crystal, then he would probably be intolerable and
not thought very highly of.

Oh, and you claim that none of those positive things that you attribute to Saban matter to his detractors, well I can turn that statement around and say that NONE OF SABAN'S INDISCRETIONS OR
WORSE MATTER TO BAMA FANS AS LONG AS HE IS BRINGING HOME THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS.  If you can't see that, then you are blinded by bias. 


Some fans are willing to sacrifice principle for a little crystal now and then.

No flames, 1214, but here's where YOUR argument falls apart.  I seem to remember OU fans having some serious, uh - shall we say, "hard feelings" about the previous school Nick coached, prior to his stint with the Miami Dolphins, so don't pretend to be all rational and stuff!     - I can WELL remember the angry and Stridently Irrational tone of this board back in January 2004!  LOL!!!! 

Y'all thought Saban was the Devil back then, TOO!!!  So I realize its not an Anti-Alabama thing going on - but I also still realize where the animus comes from.

And again, I have to ask what the "Indiscretions or worse" really are?    That he's screwing over players?  Lying to families?  Breaking NCAA rules??  Oh wait, I do remember that time he had a 20 second conversation a Junior on a HS campus a couple years ago!!  What a black-hearted villain he was to do that!!! Probably ruined that kid's life!  I'm sure Barry Switzer would never have committed a heinous crime like that, right?    
OH wait!  I know - the way he's left every previous program on probation!!!!   Ooops - sorry, that was Lou Holtz. . . . .  

but where was I?  Oh yea -   Now seriously - you tell me what "principles" I'm sacrificing when I tell you I'm PROUD to have the best College Football coach in the past 30 years coaching at my Alma Mater, and I'll tell you why I believe you are mistaken, despite your good intentions to save my soul.  ok?   

But one caveat - if you are asking me to justify ANYTHING that happened before 2007, I won't,  and I officially CONCEDE any point you want to make about Nick being the devil incarnate at Michigan State, LSux, or Miami.   Ok? 

Actually MY ARGUMENT DOESN'T FALL APART as you claim because your premise is flawed.  You make the error of trying to lump me in with ALL OU FANS HAVING HARD FEELINGS FOR SABAN AS A RESULT OF HIM COACHING AT LSU.    That is a reasoning fallacy on your part.  You also erroneously conclude even for those that may have had hard feelings when he coached at LSU, that they did not hold Saban in high esteem because of LSU beating OU.   Of course, you can't know those person's reasons.

My views of Saban center around his persona, arrogance, and alot in how he handled the situation with Miami.     I've found over the years that my intutition serves me very well in evaluting people.   Saban exudes sleaze to me.  That's just the way I see it. You may not like this view, but it is my assessment.  You're free to have a different one obviously.

By the way, I feel the same way about Lane Kiffin in regard to the sleaze factor.  I also have the same view of John Calipari and other coaches that I could name.

Geezus!  I feel like Doctor Phil!    This is good, 1214!  I think we may have made a breakthrough!

Now we see through the patina of "grievances" and we get down to the heart of the matter.

You hate Saban because you didn't like the way he left the Dolphins.  Ok. 
You think Saban is arrogant, and thus a "bad person", and that colors your view of everything he does.  

So I have a serious question for you, and NO SARCASM is intended:  But where you old enough to closely follow OU in the 1980's?
Do you think the term "humble" was ever used to describe Barry Switzer?
Do you think Texass or Knebraska fans might have had the same feelings for Barry in the 1980's that you have for Nick?

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

Not surprising that you would justify anything and everything Saban does.  No one has a problem with kicking bad apples off a team, but that isn't all that Saban does.

Answer this hypothetical if you can:  If Saban was not having his level of success, but operated exactly as he does today, can you honestly say that you would like the guy and what he stands for and as a representative of your athletic program.

Or to ask it another way, if you take out HIS WINNING, is what is left, anything of an admirable quality that makes you proud of your university. 

My answer to the question is a resounding NO, as I believe that Saban offers nothing but winning.  To some, that is all that matters and at any cost.  For others, there is a larger picture in the big scheme of things.

If we accept the False premise that Nick Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him, then clearly the answer to your question is NO, and for me personally the answer would be NO, regardless of the records.

But that's just the problem with the whole "argument" - The Nick Saban of y'alls mythology is a horrible SOB that no decent person would want coaching their team, and no parent would let their child play for, regardless of the W/L records. 

But that mythology doesn't match the reality.  And its not even Close.

AAAAAANNND here's where I'll get off my soapbox, because at the end of the day, no one here is going to abandoned their cherished myths and accept reality, no matter what I say.

No one here cares about APR or GSR rates, about kids earning college degrees, about the number of guys who have signed NFL contracts in the past 5 years, or the NFL attrition rate of Saban's players compared to players from other schools.  No one cares about the Charities he sponsors or the time he gives to charitable causes.  No one cares about the young men who leave UA equipped to succeed in life outside of football. 

None of that really matters to y'all.   I get it.  Its a simple proposition:  Any coach who wins more games that OU simply MUST be cheating and MUST be a rotten person.  There's just no other Possible explanation.  Saban's a horrible POS because in your minds he HAS TO BE.

I get it.

Peace.

Tom:

Here is where your post falls apart:  I didn't care for Saban BEFORE he went to Bama and before he was having more success than OU.  So your premise is false.  I  saw how he operated before coming to Bama and I saw his arrogance and the
way he handled himself and teams that he coached and the way he left
programs.   Saban had a track record pre-Bama, remember?   


Why is it a false premise that Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him.  First of all that is merely your conclusion that it is false, so it also could be true. 
Secondly, your premise of Saban being "evil and hurting the young men who play
for him" is a straw man that you created so that you could seek to destroy a
more inflammatory figure than was being portrayed.

I never characterized Saban as an evil guy who hurts all his players, although he has likely hurt some, those that he finds disposable to his purposes.    What I have said is
that Saban is a guy, not primarily guided by higher principles other than winning and he will stretch and push the envelope and he is willing to run over anyone or anything in
his way in order to accomplish his goals.  

I'm not sure that, that qualifies as "evil" and I suppose everyone has their own
definition of evil, but Saban is simply not a guy that I find with the type of
character that I would want running my program.  I think that if Bama fans were
gut level honest, they would have to admit that if Saban was exactly who he is,
but was not bringing home the crystal, then he would probably be intolerable and
not thought very highly of.

Oh, and you claim that none of those positive things that you attribute to Saban matter to his detractors, well I can turn that statement around and say that NONE OF SABAN'S INDISCRETIONS OR
WORSE MATTER TO BAMA FANS AS LONG AS HE IS BRINGING HOME THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS.  If you can't see that, then you are blinded by bias. 


Some fans are willing to sacrifice principle for a little crystal now and then.

No flames, 1214, but here's where YOUR argument falls apart.  I seem to remember OU fans having some serious, uh - shall we say, "hard feelings" about the previous school Nick coached, prior to his stint with the Miami Dolphins, so don't pretend to be all rational and stuff!     - I can WELL remember the angry and Stridently Irrational tone of this board back in January 2004!  LOL!!!! 

Y'all thought Saban was the Devil back then, TOO!!!  So I realize its not an Anti-Alabama thing going on - but I also still realize where the animus comes from.

And again, I have to ask what the "Indiscretions or worse" really are?    That he's screwing over players?  Lying to families?  Breaking NCAA rules??  Oh wait, I do remember that time he had a 20 second conversation a Junior on a HS campus a couple years ago!!  What a black-hearted villain he was to do that!!! Probably ruined that kid's life!  I'm sure Barry Switzer would never have committed a heinous crime like that, right?    
OH wait!  I know - the way he's left every previous program on probation!!!!   Ooops - sorry, that was Lou Holtz. . . . .  

but where was I?  Oh yea -   Now seriously - you tell me what "principles" I'm sacrificing when I tell you I'm PROUD to have the best College Football coach in the past 30 years coaching at my Alma Mater, and I'll tell you why I believe you are mistaken, despite your good intentions to save my soul.  ok?   

But one caveat - if you are asking me to justify ANYTHING that happened before 2007, I won't,  and I officially CONCEDE any point you want to make about Nick being the devil incarnate at Michigan State, LSux, or Miami.   Ok? 

Actually MY ARGUMENT DOESN'T FALL APART as you claim because your premise is flawed.  You make the error of trying to lump me in with ALL OU FANS HAVING HARD FEELINGS FOR SABAN AS A RESULT OF HIM COACHING AT LSU.    That is a reasoning fallacy on your part.  You also erroneously conclude even for those that may have had hard feelings when he coached at LSU, that they did not hold Saban in high esteem because of LSU beating OU.   Of course, you can't know those person's reasons.

My views of Saban center around his persona, arrogance, and alot in how he handled the situation with Miami.     I've found over the years that my intutition serves me very well in evaluting people.   Saban exudes sleaze to me.  That's just the way I see it. You may not like this view, but it is my assessment.  You're free to have a different one obviously.

By the way, I feel the same way about Lane Kiffin in regard to the sleaze factor.  I also have the same view of John Calipari and other coaches that I could name.

Geezus!  I feel like Doctor Phil!    This is good, 1214!  I think we may have made a breakthrough!

Now we see through the patina of "grievances" and we get down to the heart of the matter.

You hate Saban because you didn't like the way he left the Dolphins.  Ok. 
You think Saban is arrogant, and thus a "bad person", and that colors your view of everything he does.  

So I have a serious question for you, and NO SARCASM is intended:  But where you old enough to closely follow OU in the 1980's?
Do you think the term "humble" was ever used to describe Barry Switzer?
Do you think Texass or Knebraska fans might have had the same feelings for Barry in the 1980's that you have for Nick?

Wow, how many times can you be wrong on one post?  I never said that I don't like Saban SOLELY BECAUSE OF HIS STINT WITH THE DOLPHINS.   That was simply another aspect of confirmation to my view of his persona and character. 

I pointed out that Saban struck me as an arrogant, me first, no loyalty, do whatever advances my interests without regard to a bigger picture of ethics type of guy.  I held that view prior to the Dolphin situation, but the Dolphin situation was a tangible confirmation.

Look, I've never met Lane Kiffin or John Calipari or Dennis Erickson, but I've formed and assessment of them as I have Saban, right or wrong.  I think these coaches have an aspect of sleaze around them and I simply would not want any of them associated with my program.  Feel free to hold a different view on these guys as well as Saban.

By the way, I think maybe YOU might want to contact Dr. Phil to talk about your denial issues.

BootleggersBoy wrote: Knights of the Defenders of Holy Saint Nick - rally and .pick up your weapons !

To battle !

we are getting called from our families to be defending his Oh so delicate soul.

Once again the failure of these godless heathens to grasp the superiority of our leader brings us to war.

Holy warriors of the Internet post message boards; FIX BAYONETS !!

TomFromBama wrote:

Sooner1214 wrote:

Not surprising that you would justify anything and everything Saban does.  No one has a problem with kicking bad apples off a team, but that isn't all that Saban does.

Answer this hypothetical if you can:  If Saban was not having his level of success, but operated exactly as he does today, can you honestly say that you would like the guy and what he stands for and as a representative of your athletic program.

Or to ask it another way, if you take out HIS WINNING, is what is left, anything of an admirable quality that makes you proud of your university. 

My answer to the question is a resounding NO, as I believe that Saban offers nothing but winning.  To some, that is all that matters and at any cost.  For others, there is a larger picture in the big scheme of things.

If we accept the False premise that Nick Saban is an evil guy who hurts the young men who play for him, then clearly the answer to your question is NO, and for me personally the answer would be NO, regardless of the records.

But that's just the problem with the whole "argument" - The Nick Saban of y'alls mythology is a horrible SOB that no decent person would want coaching their team, and no parent would let their child play for, regardless of the W/L records. 

But that mythology doesn't match the reality.  And its not even Close.

AAAAAANNND here's where I'll get off my soapbox, because at the end of the day, no one here is going to abandoned their cherished myths and accept reality, no matter what I say.

No one here cares about APR or GSR rates, about kids earning college degrees, about the number of guys who have signed NFL contracts in the past 5 years, or the NFL attrition rate of Saban's players compared to players from other schools.  No one cares about the Charities he sponsors or the time he gives to charitable causes.  No one cares about the young men who leave UA equipped to succeed in life outside of football. 

None of that really matters to y'all.   I get it.  Its a simple proposition:  Any coach who wins more games that OU simply MUST be cheating and MUST be a rotten person.  There's just no other Possible explanation.  Saban's a horrible POS because in your minds he HAS TO BE.

I get it.

Peace.

Danged!  You've convinced me and I'm jumping on the bandwagon.  So......

PAROLE TIDE PAROLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CactusDave wrote: It's a glorified puppy mill.  That's all.  


The early 21st century version of the plantation considering that 90% of the recruits involved in the exploitation are African American teenage males.


It's a scam and ten or twenty years from now everyone will cop to it including the Nick Saban's of the world if he's still around.

WhiskyKilo wrote: Life isn't fair, we all know that.  Nothing is guaranteed, even if it was promised to you.

So instead of complaining that what Bama is doing isn't ethical or barely skirting the rules, I say that OU should be signing just as many.

It is so easy to "get rid" of a player nowadays, you don't even have to try.  They will hang themselves through drugs, criminal behavior, refusing to work hard etc.

If a kid won't work hard, where is the crime in booting him off campus?  That is a life lesson.

ross789 wrote:   However, I guess people should really be complaining about Kentucky's football program.