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Saints running game

Posted: 11/3/2013 6:12 PM

Saints running game 


I am truly perplexed that with the League of Gentlemen running corps our Saints have we only ran the ball for a measly 66 yards, while our former running back Chris Ivory torched the Saints for 139 yards rushing (this seems to be typical of Saints history, we let go a great player for them only to burn us later).

 Somebody please explain to me with all of the talent the Saints are loaded with on offense, we should be dominating every game in yards rushing, passing, 1st downs, 3rd down conversions & TD's. Now for our porous defense, I can only handle one disappointment at a time.

 Granted our guys played hard but to many boo-boo's, a lackluster running a game & poorly performing defense did us in. But like Hookie always says, "To beat the best you have to be the best." banghead
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Posted: 11/3/2013 6:44 PM

Re: Saints running game 


See my post's regarding this subject dating to the beginning of the season.  Damn broken record.
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Posted: 11/3/2013 7:31 PM

Re: Saints running game 


I've posted several time the love/hate affair the Saints and fans have towards their RB's
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Posted: 11/3/2013 8:09 PM

Re: Saints running game 


As inventive as they have been in the passing game the Saints offense when it comes to running the ball has been like an open book, and that's not good in this league, and with this O-line. I think that this year if there is a left tackle available with the first pick New Orleans needs to jump on him. Or a left guard. Or a center. Because it seems now that the trick to beating the Saint is pressure, and at least today there was no answer.

But we also need better linebackers. And receivers that don't drop the football.

I think that the bubble has burst on the Saints, and that we are looking at a decent team, not a really, really good one.

rtr
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Posted: 11/3/2013 10:06 PM

Re: Saints running game 


I think the problem that we are looking at is in fact not a problem with the running backs, but in fact a problem with the offensive line.

To me this has been an issue that has been building for some time.  It has been written by me more than once that no other position in the NFL gets more benefit from late round picks and undrafted picks than the RB position.

But the teams that enjoy this luxury also have great offensive line play.  At one time we enjoyed this as we had Evans, Goodwin and Nicks up the middle.  This was the core that not only protected Brees, but also set the tone for the running game.  Add in Stinchcomb and the Brown/Bushrod and the Saints had one of the best lines in football.

This is no where near the line that won the Super Bowl.  In fact many would have to say that this is no where near the offense that won the Super Bowl.  As may miss someone, but it would appear that only Evans, Brees, Colston, Moore, Meechem, and Thomas remain from the Super Bowl Team. 

This started a while back. The Saints didn't want to pay Brown so they traded him to Washington and promoted Bushrod.  The Saints allowed Goodwin (C) to leave and sign with the 49ers.  Then they allowed Nicks to leave and sign with the Bucs, they signed Grubbs but he is a notch below Nicks.  When Stinchcomb retired the Saints promoted from within and promote Strieff.  And when Bushrod left they promoted Brown.  At some point the center position was given to De Le Puente.

Now I will say that Brown was draft to be a future Tackle and was taken with a second round pick, but he is now in his 4th year and is just now making the starts. 

Look at what we have going on right now.

Strief---7th round pick
Grubbs--Signed FA (former 1st round pick)
De la Puente--Undrafted Player
Evans---4th round pick (Pro Bowl Player)  Saints hit gold here
Brown--2nd round pick that starts in year 4.

Armstead--3rd round
Harris--Undrafted
Lelito--Undrafted
Jones--7th Round

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 11/3/2013 11:33 PM

RE: Saints running game 


I think they should promote Armstead over the weakest link on that line. Can't get any worse.
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Posted: 11/4/2013 6:43 AM

RE: Saints running game 


But just look at this here:

Look at what we have going on right now.

Strief---7th round pick
Grubbs--Signed FA (former 1st round pick)
De la Puente--Undrafted Player
Evans---4th round pick (Pro Bowl Player)  Saints hit gold here
Brown--2nd round pick that starts in year 4.

Armstead--3rd round
Harris--Undrafted
Lelito--Undrafted
Jones--7th Round
-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------

The Highest Investment in the Offensive Line that the Saints have made over the last couple of years has been the 2nd round pick of Brown and it took him 4 years to be a starter.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 11/5/2013 7:13 AM

RE: Kromer Effect 


I still feel like the problems themselves fall with Loomis and the lack of interest in putting money and picks into the Offensive Line.

With that being said I am sitting here this morning and they are singing the praises of Marc Trussman and the Chicago Bears.  The Bears have taken 3 new players--2 rookies and Bushrod and turned them into a good OL Unit in the league.

A unit that is blocking better that Chicago lines have in the past few years.

Well then I remember that Aaron Kromer is now in Chicago when he served as the Saints Running Game Coordinator.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 11/5/2013 3:41 PM

RE: Saints running game 


The Saints win in spite of that albatross around their necks called Loomis. Jamaal Brown, then Goodwin, Nicks, and Bushrod. When the chump traded Ivory he still had to give up a lesser pick to get the Jets' higher pick, so he didn't gain the Saints a surfeit of picks when he damned well could have. And if anyone thinks one of the Saints' present running backs could've pulled off those long gains around the ends like Ivory, they are fooling themselves.

Yeah, their main problem is blocking, but exchange any Saint back with Ivory and have him run sweeps for the Jets and he'll gain yards, but nowhere near what Ivory gained. Also, in the past the Saints had great blocking from their tight ends Thomas and Shockey. Graham is taller, stronger, and faster and yet he seems to hate doing that. They might as well move him to wideout and move someone who actually blocks to te.
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Posted: 11/5/2013 5:50 PM

Re: Saints running game 


It all starts up front...that's what you hear all the time....we've spent some upper draft picks on defensive players...maybe it's time we take a look at the OL...yea...it's not a glamorous position to pick in the draft...but sooner or later we're gonna have to get more talent on the OL...

World Champions   2009

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Posted: 11/5/2013 8:07 PM

RE: Saints running game 



MarcusDowdellPartDeux wrote: The Saints win in spite of that albatross around their necks called Loomis. Jamaal Brown, then Goodwin, Nicks, and Bushrod. When the chump traded Ivory he still had to give up a lesser pick to get the Jets' higher pick, so he didn't gain the Saints a surfeit of picks when he damned well could have. And if anyone thinks one of the Saints' present running backs could've pulled off those long gains around the ends like Ivory, they are fooling themselves.

Yeah, their main problem is blocking, but exchange any Saint back with Ivory and have him run sweeps for the Jets and he'll gain yards, but nowhere near what Ivory gained. Also, in the past the Saints had great blocking from their tight ends Thomas and Shockey. Graham is taller, stronger, and faster and yet he seems to hate doing that. They might as well move him to wideout and move someone who actually blocks to te.
Is still content that the reason that the Jets were so successful was because the Saints constantly had 8-9 guys stack up towards the line often like you would see a team do on 4th and 1.  When the HOLDINGS occurred Ivory was quickly able to get into the second level and there was typically one guy left back there to make the tackle and sometimes he missed. 

I don't know if it is a situation where Graham hates to do it as much as it is a situation of him not being asked to do it that often or often enough to master the technique.  I really do not see Gates, Gonzales or even Sharpe as being good blocking TEs.

I don't dispute the fact that none of the Saints backs would have taken the ball that long into the secondary.  None of them have the take-it-to-the-house speed.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 11/9/2013 10:53 PM

Re: Saints running game 


My two cents on this topic of the offensive line.
The biggest problem is not so much our offensive line - but the contract negotiators. There's only so much money to spread around. Brees makes the line look pretty good - and they do as well as they can to protect him - but the reason Brees throws those very short passes in lieu of the running game is because the line just don't have the size to make the holes consistently when playing against some of the larger defensive lines. I don't even want to think how things will go against Carolina with some of the monsters they have.

What's needed is to find more money to pay bigger talent - guys that can protect Brees and block for the running game. We're barely using Ingram - trade him to an AFC team for some slabs of beef with quick feet and hands. Vilma on IR - defensively, that's a hit, but it should free up some money.
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Posted: 11/10/2013 7:17 AM

Re: Saints running game 



ukaserex wrote: My two cents on this topic of the offensive line.
The biggest problem is not so much our offensive line - but the contract negotiators. There's only so much money to spread around. Brees makes the line look pretty good - and they do as well as they can to protect him - but the reason Brees throws those very short passes in lieu of the running game is because the line just don't have the size to make the holes consistently when playing against some of the larger defensive lines. I don't even want to think how things will go against Carolina with some of the monsters they have.

What's needed is to find more money to pay bigger talent - guys that can protect Brees and block for the running game. We're barely using Ingram - trade him to an AFC team for some slabs of beef with quick feet and hands. Vilma on IR - defensively, that's a hit, but it should free up some money.
You are making a reverse argument.  The reason for the bad play is the offensive line.  Period.  Now having more money to spread around from the Salary Cap would allow you to find players to upgrade,

I understand your point that you need to find money to upgrade at those positions, but your phrasing indicates that they would play better if they were getting paid more. 

They have gone cheap on 3 of the 5 offensive line positions and have really gone cheap on 2 of the 3 TE positions.  Even Watson is a receiving TE.  Now I am not saying that is totally bad, but sometimes on 3rd and 1 everyone needs to know that you are just running the ball. 

Grubbs is not a bad player, but he needs help from a competent Center.  Most Guards do with the heavier of the DT.  De Le Puente is often late sliding to help.  I understand he is reading the gap first but others in the league find a way to be faster and better at it.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 11/13/2013 8:03 AM

Re: Saints running game 


Let me rephrase, if my phrasing indicated they'd play better if they were paid more.

I cannot knock their efforts. Those guys are doing their best. What I'm looking at is the under-average amount paid for those efforts. If the Saints were to develop some larger, stronger run and pass linemen, they'd have an easier time running.

Mind you, now that I'd posted that, I saw Sunday night how well the line did in blocking. I also noticed that Ingram is a runner who does have heart - just poor field vision - he needs a fullback to lead him through the hole - whereas, the other runners don't seem to need a fullback.

So, it would seem that I'm off base in my thinking and have to eat my words. Which, after a 145 yard production, I'm all too happy to do.

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Posted: 11/13/2013 10:48 AM

Re: Saints running game 


I was there at the game so it was hard for me to study a lot of the movements of the line.

From my seats it appeared that the Saints did a lot more downhill blocking.  A lot more straight ahead running and getting the man across from you as opposed to trying to run a lot of wide runs and trying to pull lineman or have them slide.

Saint Tiger

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