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Guys you should check out that Chart

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Posted: 12/8/2012 8:53 PM

Guys you should check out that Chart 


Another poster added a thread a dew down that has a chart that shows the make up of the current roster of the Saints.

http://www.profootballrosters....sembled-charts/

I actually found it fascinating.

A couple of Key Points.

1)  More than half of the active 53-man roster was not part of the 2009 Super Bowl Team.
2)  Only one draft pick remains from each year 2007 and 2008, Only 2 from 2009.

Bushrod 4th 2007
Ellis       1st 2008
Jenkins  1st 2009
Morstead 5th 2009

That is basically like 2 whole wasted drafts years in a row.

Just a quick look reveals that the 2005, 2006 and 2007 first round draft picks are no longer on the team.  In fact no body from the 2005 draft is on the team.  Moore was a free agent in 2005.  Smith and henderson are still around from the 2004 draft.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 12/8/2012 10:55 PM

RE: Guys you should check out that Chart 


The Saints' scouts AREN'T good at what they do. I'm guessing Payton has seen offensive gems to offset it a little bit, but only for offense. It doesn't help that the Saints like to trade away more picks than they receive, or trade for some team's hand-me-downs from yesteryear. Compare how the Steelers were built, college draft pick-wise.
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Posted: 12/9/2012 8:14 AM

Re: Guys you should check out that Chart 


We're better at finding gems in the world of UDFA's....

World Champions   2009

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Posted: 12/9/2012 8:39 AM

Re: Guys you should check out that Chart 



bubbamoniz wrote: We're better at finding gems in the world of UDFA's....

Well not to harp on the Ingram pick again, but that was another reason that didn't make since because you gave away a second round pick to move up to do it.

But also most of the UDFAs that are around are usually RBs, WRs and FBs.

Very few defensive players end up being key players.  Every so often you can find a player like Galette that slips through the cracks.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 12/9/2012 7:41 PM

Re: Guys you should check out that Chart 


I don't like trading away future picks.  That being said, I feel like Ingram would have been picked within the next few picks. 

On the subject of Ingram, I believe he has been performing much better as of late.



On the subject of the guys we drafted, I would think that those guys were rated somewhere around where we drafted them.  Some guys were probably a little higher and some I'm sure were rated lower.  My point is that we didn't draft a bunch of guys with high picks that should have went undrafted. 

I'm not sure our draft problems point to, but it doesn't make any sense to me that we drafted players that showed no talent at the time they were drafted.  I think that goes back to the coaches.  jmho.
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Posted: 12/9/2012 8:13 PM

Re: Guys you should check out that Chart 



KtoLV wrote: I don't like trading away future picks.  That being said, I feel like Ingram would have been picked within the next few picks. 

On the subject of Ingram, I believe he has been performing much better as of late.



On the subject of the guys we drafted, I would think that those guys were rated somewhere around where we drafted them.  Some guys were probably a little higher and some I'm sure were rated lower.  My point is that we didn't draft a bunch of guys with high picks that should have went undrafted. 

I'm not sure our draft problems point to, but it doesn't make any sense to me that we drafted players that showed no talent at the time they were drafted.  I think that goes back to the coaches.  jmho.
Don't misunderstand the problem with the Ingram pick.  The problem is that it was never going to be a Value Pick for the Saints.

A first Round Draft pick for a running back and when you bundle a second round pick with it then the Value of the pick went up to a top 15 pick.

There are 2 decent RBs on our on roster that were not drafted and a lot more in the league. 
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -

Draft problem are a product of several factors. 

1.  Being able to forecast how a player will fit into your system.
2.  Being able to identify what a player can and can't do.
3.  Means sometimes drafting for need, but other times taking the best player available.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 12/9/2012 8:20 PM

RE: Guys you should check out that Chart 


"We're better at finding gems in the world of UDFA's...."

I hope so, because that's what they're left with, but doing that yeay after year catches up with you. It's like trying to win at poker but having aces, kings, and queens off limits to you.
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Posted: 12/10/2012 7:11 AM

RE: Guys you should check out that Chart 


Tell me about it, too many people left since 2009 to make another Super Bowl run. Some were frustrated hanging in there in regards to contract negotiations, others left for a personally better contract, or other reasons. Every time someone left people said "He can be replaced..." If you have a team that is built on chemistry as much as ours' you can't simply replace someone with someone else. Too many guys have been replaced with newbies, and it's a very different team, with or without Payton.

In the Payton era, our drafts have never really been "approved" by many fans, but we've had guys like Patrick, Malcolm, Thomas and Jimmy that are doing very well imo.

As long as they were building this team, I never wanted to lose a role player. This is also why I never cared about little to no draft picks tell you the truth.
Now that this team isn't what it used to be anymore, I just hope that they will find high character players with good talent and potential, and that people like Devery and Lance will retire in NOLA one day.

The link won't work for me, I get the message "page not found".


dd2f46d4-2f72-4b4c-bdd1-b4c4b062db9c_zps405f4d62.jpg

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Posted: 12/10/2012 10:03 AM

RE: Guys you should check out that Chart 



KatrinaLore wrote:
The link won't work for me, I get the message "page not found".

There seems to be a problem with that site right now.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 12/11/2012 5:20 AM

RE: Guys you should check out that Chart 


Is it the Scout's fault, or that of Loomis and Payton for choosing the wrong guys?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "

Galileo
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Posted: 12/11/2012 6:00 AM

RE: Guys you should check out that Chart 


I really do not know what happens inside the Saints draft War room.

I do know that the decision to move up and trade for the Ingram pick was Sean Payton's decision. 

I would imagine that the Saints are similar to most teams and rank the players on the board and then take a look at who is available when their slot comes around.

I think that several factors are in play here.  One thing would be in player evaluations.  They have done a good job in evaluating OL players in the middle and late rounds.  They have done a good job of evaluating undrafted RBs.

I think part of the problem might be two fold.

A.  They need to do a better job of evaluating defensive players.
B.  They need to draft more for need.

What I mean with "B" is that my fear is that sometimes the Saints rely to much on the "Best Player Available" model.  An example of this might be with a player like Nick Toon.  Now he was a 4th round pick last year and may be a good player going forward, but the Saints had other needs that WR, so the choice became to take a WR at their pick because they didn't think he would be there or stay with a player they could develop at DT or LB.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 12/11/2012 7:53 AM

Re: Guys you should check out that Chart 


Saints drafting scenario should be best player availiable at a needed position....taking a wr just because he's the highest rated player when the Saints are up to pick...makes no sense in my mind...suppose we are in need of a DL or LB and the next best ranked player is a TE or a OL [just an example]....do we forget about a need and pick a position we may not need just to get the BPA....BPA should never over-ride a need...jmo

I can see the Saints selecting Toon at the time they did...mostly due to the loss of Meachem...I believe they did the right thing...BPA at a needed position...doing what they did with the Ingram pick...in my mind...was a waste of a pick and surrendering a future pick to boot....in our scheme at RB...we're better off filling it in with any Joe Blow who can run with a football...

We're going to have to be smarter with the roster when it comes to free agents as well...most of our dire needs are filled through free agent pick-ups....we've made a few wise choices...and bungled a few as well...

World Champions   2009

Last edited 12/11/2012 8:10 AM by bubbamoniz

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Posted: 12/11/2012 9:56 AM

Re: Guys you should check out that Chart 


The Toon pick was just an example.  The Saints took a DT with their 3rd round pick.

What I think happens is that the Saints rank all the players 1-250.  Then they wind up with a pick.  So in this case the Saints picked in the 4th round with Pick 122.

Now the Saints might have had Toon listed as the #100 player on their board.  So in their mind they are getting a player #22 spots lower than where they had him projected.

But the choice still is whether they should take Toon at #122 or possible take another DT or LBer they have ranked #126 or #128th.

Some days you win and some days you lose.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 12/11/2012 10:49 AM

Re: Guys you should check out that Chart 


Just a thought but I think Sean Payton really wants a "bell cow" type rb, a guy he can feed the ball to 20 times a game.
With solid (if unspectacular) players like Pierre Thomas entrenched in a great offense, he feels he can afford to "roll the dice" on a guy and hope to strike gold.

He's done it 3 times that I can think of off the top of my head.

Reggie Bush in 2006 when he had a Pro Bowl rb in Deuce McAllister.
I believe that was the right pick on a best player available.
Reggie was projected to be the "next Gayle Sayers", a once in a generation type talent. (he wasn't)

He traded up to draft Antonio Pittman in 2007 although he had Bush, McAllister,and Aaron Stecker on the roster.
He then cut Pittman in favor of Pierre Thomas, who was undrafted.

Lastly, he did it with Ingram, trading future picks to get him when he already had a stable of productive backs.

All of this tells me that Sean Payton is in search of one guy who can be "the man" at the rb position.....noidea
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Posted: 12/11/2012 5:14 PM

Re: Guys you should check out that Chart 


So what you are saying is that we should never let Payton or Loomis draft another RB again.

Sign one via Free agency or undrafted rookie free agent.

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I don't disagree with what you are saying about Payton looking for a back, but I do question his logic or theory on what that back might be.

The Saints offense does not tend to lead to one back getting 20+ carries per game.  I always felt like in certain situations that the Saints force the running game. 

Also I think that Payton thinks he can find a back that can give him 3-4 yards on every carry.  There is a big difference between a guy that averages 4+ yards per carry and a guy that can give you 4 yards per carry.  If you feed one guy the ball 20 times then over time that RB will gets some 10 yard runs and maybe even a 30 yard run, but will also have several 2-3 yard runs.  So you cannot just say it is 3rd and 2, give the ball to Ingram and get a first down.

I don't know how many times this season I have seen the Saints call for a first down pass that went incomplete and then come back with a run on 2nd and 10 which usually results in a 2 or 3 yard gain.  You are still left with a passing situation for 3rd down.  Even if the RB was to pick up 6 yards on 2nd down, a 3rd and 4 would still be a throw.

Saint Tiger

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Posted: 12/12/2012 11:55 AM

Re: Guys you should check out that Chart 


Yes, ypc can be misleading. (at times)

For example, in Houston, Arian Foster is averaging 3.9 ypc.
He leads the league in carries.
He averages 4.9 in the first half.
This season, the Texans have had alot of leads late in games and Kubiak invariably starts to run the ball and spin the clock in the second half.
Foster faces 8 and 9 man fronts and his ypc goes off a cliff.
He's also a 3 down back and doesn't have a "short yardage or goal line specialist" to pick up the 3rd and 1 or 3rd and 2 carries.
He's second in the NFL in runs for 1st downs and leads the league in rushing tds.

On the other end of the spectrum, guys like Darren Sproles and Jamaal Charles rarely face a short yardage situation (why would they? not suited for that) and tend to have very impressive ypc averages.

Having a 3 down back tends to keep a defense more off balance because he's not a specialist and the defense can't get a read on what's coming based on personnel.

Maybe that is what Payton is looking for.....noidea
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