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Posted: 12/27/2012 1:16 PM
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NT
Last edited 1/21/2013 5:20 PM by Gatom
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Posted: 12/27/2012 3:44 PM
Re: Rookie of the year?
Luke Kuelchy has a strong case. He should at least be defensive Rookie of the year
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Posted: 12/27/2012 4:15 PM
Re: Rookie of the year?
Andrew Luck has no business even being in the discussion. he leads the league in INTs and has one of the worst passer ratings in the league. If you compare him to RGIII or Russell Wilson he loses both of those battles. Hell, he should finish 5th in voting behind RG3, RW, Alf Morris, and Doug Martin if you ask me...and possibly behind Ryan Tannehill. He is riding on the coattails of all the hype he had coming into the league if you ask me.
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Posted: 12/27/2012 4:28 PM
Re: Rookie of the year?
you should put (not you Mez b/c I don't want to know the right answer) in your title next time then   |
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- MarteFuture
- Undrafted Rookie
- Rating: 3.0/5 this site
- 105 posts this site
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Posted: 12/27/2012 8:09 PM
Re: Rookie of the year?
In an unrelated topic... what a raw deal Alex Smith got... he had one of the best passer ratings in the league and the best completion % in the league when he was replaced. Although Kaepernick has been pretty awesome for a rookie and adds another dimension.
What a year for rookie QBs. RG III is the clear winner, IMO... I agree, Andruw Luck has no business being anywhere higher than 4th. You can't win ROY with that kind of completion % and QB rating when there are so many other rookie QBs with much more impressive stats. I also agree that Doug Martin and Morris could be ahead of him.
That's not to say Luck won't be great... I think he will be fantastic and may end up better than any of them... but as a rookie, he clearly wasn't.
"Because I make agressive predictions and analysis. Not my fault I'm not a coward." -Zito, Fearless Man of the Forums!
Last edited 12/27/2012 8:16 PM by MarteFuture
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Posted: 12/27/2012 11:34 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
Luck is not just an afterthought here, and a strong argument can be made when he's breaking the rookie yardage record, and has a rookie record 7 games with a game-winning drive (I'd like to think we can respect that after Ryan's done it so much for us). That's SEVEN games where his defense dug him a hole and he marched down the field to win it. As a rookie. I think that slightly counteracts his rookie mistakes.
You have a team that was the worst in the NFL last year, and they only downgraded the talent in the offseason, as they cleaned house of guys like Garcon, Clark, Tamme, Saturday. They've now won 10 games and Luck is pretty much the only reason why.
Last edited 12/27/2012 11:35 PM by B3eenthehedges
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Posted: 12/27/2012 11:43 PM
RE: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong answer
I'd have to go with Russel Wilson, Bob and then Luck. You can make a case for Doug Martin, but he has virtually no chance.
Kuechly should easily win the DROY, though Jenkins and a couple others have made a case for some consideration.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
Galileo
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Posted: 12/28/2012 6:29 AM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
My vote would be ORMVP - Wilson
DRMVP - Kuechly
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- MarteFuture
- Undrafted Rookie
- Rating: 3.0/5 this site
- 105 posts this site
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Posted: 12/28/2012 12:25 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
B3eenthehedges wrote: Luck is not just an afterthought here, and a strong argument can be made when he's breaking the rookie yardage record, and has a rookie record 7 games with a game-winning drive (I'd like to think we can respect that after Ryan's done it so much for us). That's SEVEN games where his defense dug him a hole and he marched down the field to win it. As a rookie. I think that slightly counteracts his rookie mistakes.
You have a team that was the worst in the NFL last year, and they only downgraded the talent in the offseason, as they cleaned house of guys like Garcon, Clark, Tamme, Saturday. They've now won 10 games and Luck is pretty much the only reason why. Didn't say he was an afterthought... but when you finish with one of the worst QBRs in the league and there are other playoff bound rookie QBs near the top of the league in QBR and completion %, you can't give it to Luck over them. Yes, Luck is breaking passing yardage records as a rookie... but his team doesn't run the ball at all... if you have a big arm, with that running game it would be hard not to do. He's been impressive and I still think he will end up the best of them all, but he's not ROY. ROY is based on total performance, not just game winning drives... the other guys have better total performance records.
"Because I make agressive predictions and analysis. Not my fault I'm not a coward." -Zito, Fearless Man of the Forums! |
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Posted: 12/28/2012 12:54 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
B3eenthehedges wrote: Luck is not just an afterthought here, and a strong argument can be made when he's breaking the rookie yardage record, and has a rookie record 7 games with a game-winning drive (I'd like to think we can respect that after Ryan's done it so much for us). That's SEVEN games where his defense dug him a hole and he marched down the field to win it. As a rookie. I think that slightly counteracts his rookie mistakes.
You have a team that was the worst in the NFL last year, and they only downgraded the talent in the offseason, as they cleaned house of guys like Garcon, Clark, Tamme, Saturday. They've now won 10 games and Luck is pretty much the only reason why. the defense didn't dig him a hole, he dug himself a hole with poor play. I'm not saying Luck isn't good, but he isn't the best this year and he's not even close. downgraded talent? They drafted 2 TEs and a WR immediately after him and signed another FA WR to help him in Donnie Avery. Not to mention they re-signed an elite WR Reggie Wayne to be his #1. He's got more weapons than RG3 and RW combined. 
Last edited 12/28/2012 12:57 PM by mezmrin
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Posted: 12/28/2012 2:12 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
mezmrin wrote:
B3eenthehedges wrote: Luck is not just an afterthought here, and a strong argument can be made when he's breaking the rookie yardage record, and has a rookie record 7 games with a game-winning drive (I'd like to think we can respect that after Ryan's done it so much for us). That's SEVEN games where his defense dug him a hole and he marched down the field to win it. As a rookie. I think that slightly counteracts his rookie mistakes.
You have a team that was the worst in the NFL last year, and they only downgraded the talent in the offseason, as they cleaned house of guys like Garcon, Clark, Tamme, Saturday. They've now won 10 games and Luck is pretty much the only reason why. the defense didn't dig him a hole, he dug himself a hole with poor play. I'm not saying Luck isn't good, but he isn't the best this year and he's not even close.
downgraded talent? They drafted 2 TEs and a WR immediately after him and signed another FA WR to help him in Donnie Avery. Not to mention they re-signed an elite WR Reggie Wayne to be his #1. He's got more weapons than RG3 and RW combined. I would not consider any of those that they drafted or signed aside from Wayne to be real game-changing weapons (not yet, TY Hilton shows a lot of promise, but you can't lean on any of these rookies yet, nor Avery), so yes, I see that as a downgrade over Garcon and the 2 TEs they let go. Griffin and Wilson both have strong running games to move the ball down the field. That said, you can make a much stronger argument for Griffin now that they're piling up wins, but to act like passing totals, wins and game-winning drives aren't incredibly important performance categories (especially on a team that only won 1 game last year) is short-sighted, IMO.
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Posted: 12/28/2012 2:38 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
passing yards are relatively meaningless in the grandscheme of things especially if they don't end with a TD. TDs, INTs, and ratings are much more important. Wins are very important as well, but RW and RG3 have those as well. I'm not saying Luck isn't any good or hasn't had a pretty good year for a rookie, just that he doesn't belong in the ROY conversation compared to the guys who do. Look at the numbers, Luck isn't even close.
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Posted: 12/28/2012 3:32 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
mezmrin wrote: passing yards are relatively meaningless in the grandscheme of things especially if they don't end with a TD. TDs, INTs, and ratings are much more important. Wins are very important as well, but RW and RG3 have those as well. I'm not saying Luck isn't any good or hasn't had a pretty good year for a rookie, just that he doesn't belong in the ROY conversation compared to the guys who do. Look at the numbers, Luck isn't even close.
I'd say that when you have a thoroughly average running game, to have over 1,000 more passing yards than the other QBs is question is noteworthy, with a similar number of TDs. Remember that Kirk Cousins came in and won one for the Skins, so I don't think you can say that Griffin is the only reason that their offense flows, when Alfred Morris is almost a top 5 back in production (along with Lynch of course). It's much easier to say that the passing game was really the only thing the Colts had going, so yes, more attempts is going to equate to more INTS for a rookie. Passer rating and INTs are really the only area that you can say Griffing and Wilson were far better, but so was Alex Smith and he lsot his job for not being able to carry a team on his shoulders like these guys, so I don't think measuring their contributions is that simple. I'm not saying that Luck is any more deserving than the other 2, but I think you're overstating that he isn't, coming off a 4,000 yard season with 10 wins and 7 game-winnnig drives. That's pretty phenomenal, no matter the supporting cast (which wasn't as good) or amount of attempts.
Last edited 12/28/2012 3:33 PM by B3eenthehedges
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Posted: 12/28/2012 3:52 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
Passer rating, completion percentage, INTs, TDs are all in favor of RG3 and RW Luck has passing yards and that's it. And he only has that because he's thrown 225 more times than the others. If RG3 or RW had as many chances to throw it as Luck they would have an even wider margin of dominance over Luck. The colts RB have gained over 1150 yards between Ballard and Brown so they do have a running game. The colts D is better than the skins. The colts were a 10 win team for years and years until they lost on purpose last season so they could draft Luck. Their supporting cast is much better than the Skins, and their receiving corps is light years better than the Skins.  |
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Posted: 12/28/2012 3:54 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
Gatom wrote:
 = OVERRATED |
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Posted: 12/28/2012 4:13 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
Man if I'm needing a young QB, give me Russell Wilson, guy is a better much more athletic Drew Brees, I mean how smart is this kid, to me what he has done as a rookie is more amazing even than Ryan, especially considering he was a 3rd rounder, I mean just wow, how many GMs are biting the carpet in total frustration over passing on him ? If he dont get the ROY it's a total fix by god.... |
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- MarteFuture
- Undrafted Rookie
- Rating: 3.0/5 this site
- 105 posts this site
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Posted: 12/28/2012 7:15 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
I still say RG III was better this year. ROY shouldn't have anything to do with where a player was drafted.
"Because I make agressive predictions and analysis. Not my fault I'm not a coward." -Zito, Fearless Man of the Forums! |
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Posted: 1/2/2013 4:04 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
Anyone feel differently after Luck led them to a big win over the Texans?
Another interesting stat is that Griffin fumbled the ball 12 times this year on top of his 5 INTs, but they just happened to only get recovered twice... So I think that spits in the face of the turnover argument, when RG3's turnovers randomly bounced a certain way to get recovered by his team, a luxury a QB who passes more doesn't usually have.
Also, with how many snubs we saw for the probowl because of injuries, Griffin was also out of a few games this season.
I think it's truly a 3 man race at this point (well 5 if you count the 2 RBs who would probably get it any other year) where very compelling arguments could be made for any of them.
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Posted: 1/2/2013 4:12 PM
RE: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong answer  (1 vote)
Wilson was the most impressive for me, but he also had the best defense in his corner.
RGIII was very good, but Alford Morris was as much a caveat for their turn around as RGIII was.
Luck had some nice stats as far as total yardage and such, but the lack of accuracy and all the int's are worrisome to me. This was supposed to be one of the best passers of all time and didn't look real sharp at times. Passing wise he and Cam are very comparable in their rookie seasons, but Cam's running ability is what put him over the top for ROY against Von Miller.
Luck's comeback wins are certainly note worthy, but maybe it was his crappy play earlier that lead to that situation.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. "
Galileo
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Posted: 1/2/2013 4:25 PM
Re: Rookie of the year? (Except Mez, don't need the wrong
It is valid that Luck's early struggles contributed some to needing to come back (though I don't think you can overlook the weak supporting cast as the other reason they always got into shootouts), but I think you guys are understating that rare quality of being at your best when your back is against the wall, not just when things are going right. Tough games are going to happen in the NFL, tenfold for a rookie who can't get by on his legs with defenses not yet adjusting to it. You gotta show up big when it counts in this league, and he has for 11 wins and 7 comebacks. That's incredibly impressive to me for a rookie.
And as I highlighted above, I tend to put less stock in the running QBs coming in and lighting it up, because we've seen this so many times in the last 10 years that they regress once the defenses figure out how to combat it. Vick, Young, Cam, etc.... Now I do think these kids have less maturing to do then those guys did, but I don't think you can discount the learning curve it takes for defenses to combat them.
Luck hasn't had that luxury, even though he does run well enough... He's come into the league with no help, and being put in a position where they're having to air it out all game to win, he's delivered when it counted.
Last edited 1/2/2013 4:49 PM by B3eenthehedges
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