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Trade Detail Clarification

  • SaysBill
  • Five Star General
  • Rating: 3.0/5 this site
  • 1398 posts this site

Posted: 3/1/2009 10:19 AM

Trade Detail Clarification 


I hope that someone can clarify this for me...I know that the Pats received the #34 pick from KC in the 2009 draft for Cassel and Vrabel....but I have heard mixed reports about a conditional pick next year.

I had heard it reported that if KC is able to reach a long-term contract with Cassel, that there would be a conditional pick based upon performance. However, late last night and this morning, everything I am reading suggests that the Pats are getting the #34 pick and there is NO conditional pick for next year.

Does anyone have any information on whether there is a conditional draft pick next year as well as the #34 pick this year?

Posted: 3/1/2009 10:24 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


I have no hard facts, but every source (CNNSI, ESPN, PFT) that I've seen is saying #34 and that's it.
  • SaysBill
  • Five Star General
  • Rating: 3.0/5 this site
  • 1398 posts this site

Posted: 3/1/2009 10:36 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


Ok, yea because for the first couple of hours after the story just broke, on NFL Network, WEEI, and other news outlets they were reporting that it was #34 AND a conditional pick in the 2010 draft.

IF that's the case, that there is no conditional pick, it's a shame that the Bucs were so late to the show because adding #19 and a 3rd would have been really nice (as is being reported).

Last edited 3/1/2009 10:36 AM by SaysBill

Posted: 3/1/2009 10:50 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


I think this was a trade to open up cap room. I'm hoping this means that we have a big free agent in mind. I guess this shows that Mangini is the exception and not the rule with BB's relationship w/ old staffers.
  • SaysBill
  • Five Star General
  • Rating: 3.0/5 this site
  • 1398 posts this site

Posted: 3/1/2009 11:56 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


Oh I completely understand that the Pats had to make a move and fast in order to clear cap space for FA and to extend their own players (Wilfork, Mankins, Gostkowski, and Seymour), but just the same...what took TB so long to get involved? I understand that things moved pretty quickly with the KC trade, but EVERYONE knew the Pats had to trade Cassel. It's just frustrating to get #34 when potentially the Pats could have gotten #19 and a 3rd rounder for Cassel if they either waited another day or if TB got involved earlier. Having #19 would be right in the Pats wheelhouse in terms of value and then they would have three 3rd rounders (assuming they get a 3rd round comp pick for Asante). If there was a conditional pick that could be as high as a 1st or 2nd rounder next year, I would feel better about this.

I understand there was little leverage for the Pats because the market for Cassel was shrinking and they had to make a move rather quickly, however, if TB got involved that gets thrown out the window because then you have teams bidding against each other. Missing out on #19 and a 3rd rounder is extremely frustrating, especially with the needs this team has and how deep this draft is.

Posted: 3/1/2009 6:24 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


What I heard on WEEI this morning was that the Patriots talked to teams this past week including TB who said no deal. Then at the last minute TB tried to make a trade for Cassel. A 3 team trade involving Cassel to Denver, Cutler to KC and a first and third round draft pick to the Patriots. True or not true someone is to blame and if it was TB then they should not have waited so long.

I said before the trade before this past week that the Patriots could not wait too long to trade Cassel is because the market would be shrinking.

Posted: 3/1/2009 7:00 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


They are now saying on ESPN that we would have been getting the Broncos first round pick #12. They are now trying to get conspiricy theories going that the Pats leaked the 3 way deal to the Globe to screw McDaniels. That makes absolutely no sense.

Posted: 3/1/2009 7:34 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


If its ESPN thats coming up with the conspiracy theory then say  no more.  Unless the theory really started with the Hearld, then it would all make sense.

Speaking of rumors. Did anyone read the Ron Borges post in the Hearld Newswire? I did and I'm not sure but I think Borges has been taking psychotic drugs again. Is it true that Borges was at one time confined to a rubber room in a whacko ward.   I know it sound crazy but I think I read that.

Cassel - Scott Mitchell.  Where does he get this stuff?

Last edited 3/1/2009 7:41 PM by hddcrash

Posted: 3/2/2009 12:17 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


Yea we pissed off alot of people with this trade. What I love is all the controversy that it started in Denver. All I can say is thank you New England!

Posted: 3/2/2009 3:34 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 



hddcrash wrote:

If its ESPN thats coming up with the conspiracy theory then say  no more.  Unless the theory really started with the Hearld, then it would all make sense.

Speaking of rumors. Did anyone read the Ron Borges post in the Hearld Newswire? I did and I'm not sure but I think Borges has been taking psychotic drugs again. Is it true that Borges was at one time confined to a rubber room in a whacko ward.   I know it sound crazy but I think I read that.

Cassel - Scott Mitchell.  Where does he get this stuff?

I'd like to know the real timing of the deal. I would have to believe if the Patriots could have gotten the 12th pick in the first and again in the third round that they would have done the deal. There is no reason for them not to have.

Question is in the days prior to the deal did the Patriots approach other teams about Cassel and was Tampa one of the teams? Did Tampa and other teams turn the deal down? Did the Patriots tknow that this being a shrinking market for Cassel that they better get the deal done now thinking that there were no more offers? Did the Patriots really push to see what was out there for Cassel? Why did Vrabel just become merely a throw in? (something stinks about that)

Posted: 3/2/2009 5:09 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 



Morpheus11 wrote: What I heard on WEEI this morning was that the Patriots talked to teams this past week including TB who said no deal. Then at the last minute TB tried to make a trade for Cassel. A 3 team trade involving Cassel to Denver, Cutler to KC and a first and third round draft pick to the Patriots. True or not true someone is to blame and if it was TB then they should not have waited so long.

I said before the trade before this past week that the Patriots could not wait too long to trade Cassel is because the market would be shrinking.

Cutler is pizzzed..........fans have not heard the end from him.

Posted: 3/2/2009 5:19 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


Ok.........

Good trade for KC, bad for the NEP. As far as I am concerned it's over, done.....  Say what you may however, Vrabel was a fan favorite AND had some juice left in the tank. End result no matter what you say, speculate, add to the pot or however you want to phrase it, especially those "expert"s who want to justify it...........Vrabel & Cassel for a # 34 ! Doesn't NE have another hole to plug now?

" So many draft choices yet, so little cap space "  Well fans, the organization is about to test itself on just how good they are in managing/winning in the cap era.

Any truth to the rumor that Arlen Specter is behind this?

Posted: 3/2/2009 5:23 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


#1 The Pats got Cassel where he wanted to go

#2 The Denver deal is like one of those real estate deals where the sale is contingent on several things happen.  Sounds great at first, but the likelihood that it happens were small. ...I imagine Cassel would not have objected to McDaniel

#3 They have cap space, which they needed - now. 

Most likley they could have gotten more with patience, but settled with meeting thier's and Cassel's needs.

Posted: 3/2/2009 10:21 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


It sounds alot like TB/Den waffling.  Peter King (I think) said Belichick and Pioli already had a deal in place Friday and TB/Den came in after they were finalizing the deal.  I guess Belichick could have screwed Pioli and renegged on their deal to get more out of TB/Den, but I don't think he would do that to a guy he has a good relationship with.

Two other notes

With the pending players-owners agreement expiring, players will be under control of drafting teams for 6 years (instead of 4).  That makes draft picks a little more valuable than before because the teams will theoretically control their rights for an additional 2 years.

Randy Moss redid his deal to save the Pats $1M.  That was apparently how they were able to sign Fred Taylor ($3M cap hit in 2009) and still be under the cap.  Now that they cleared almost $20M with Cassel and Vrabel, it doesn't appear to be a big deal now, but Taylor may have signed somewhere else if the Pats hadn't acted so quickly.  This is why I always say the salary cap is easy to manipulate and no matter how close the Pats are to the cap, they will do what needs to be done to improve the team.  The Patriots are among the best teams at salary cap manipulation.

Posted: 3/2/2009 10:41 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 



stealthdog666 wrote: It sounds alot like TB/Den waffling.  Peter King (I think) said Belichick and Pioli already had a deal in place Friday and TB/Den came in after they were finalizing the deal.  I guess Belichick could have screwed Pioli and renegged on their deal to get more out of TB/Den, but I don't think he would do that to a guy he has a good relationship with.

Two other notes

With the pending players-owners agreement expiring, players will be under control of drafting teams for 6 years (instead of 4).  That makes draft picks a little more valuable than before because the teams will theoretically control their rights for an additional 2 years.

Randy Moss redid his deal to save the Pats $1M.  That was apparently how they were able to sign Fred Taylor ($3M cap hit in 2009) and still be under the cap.  Now that they cleared almost $20M with Cassel and Vrabel, it doesn't appear to be a big deal now, but Taylor may have signed somewhere else if the Pats hadn't acted so quickly.  This is why I always say the salary cap is easy to manipulate and no matter how close the Pats are to the cap, they will do what needs to be done to improve the team.  The Patriots are among the best teams at salary cap manipulation.
Stealth ~ {I like that handle!} I will continue to see the jar as half full but, six years yes, also translates into additional consumed cap. MC was $14.5MM and lets not forget the cap was raised what, 4M this year. 
Reality Accounting - The stuff the IRS (and nflpa)  will only accept. The MC cap hit was a transaction that lasted only as long as he was franchised. a/k/a/ on the books and off in short order.  I find it interesting.
How do we find and sign a ILB & CB or two?  Taylor has a very impressive pedigree but, we will have to wait and see how he is as a Patriot.

Posted: 3/2/2009 2:22 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


The thing with this is we have to wait to see what becomes of the 34th pick if we get the next big player for us or trade it for a good player then it changes everything.

Posted: 3/2/2009 2:57 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 



bceagles24 wrote: The thing with this is we have to wait to see what becomes of the 34th pick if we get the next big player for us or trade it for a good player then it changes everything.

It is not just what the 34th pick is.  It is what the Patriots do with the $20M they freed by moving Cassel and Vrabel.

Some in the media has been very dismissive of the cap situation, and haven't even discussed it in the trade analysis.  The trade was essentially:

New England receives the #34 pick & $20M in cap space
Kansas City receives Vrabel and Cassel

I have a feeling that the #34 pick and $20M will be much more valuable to the 2009 Patriots than Vrabel and Cassel would have been.  I am going with the assumption that Brady will be starting on opening day.

Posted: 3/2/2009 4:29 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


If Brady is starting from day one as expected then Cassel and his $14.6 million go to the bench. I still wonder why they didn't get anything for Vrabel. That is still strange to me. They should have been able to get a second for Cassel by himself I would think.

Posted: 3/2/2009 5:36 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 



Morpheus11 wrote: If Brady is starting from day one as expected then Cassel and his $14.6 million go to the bench. I still wonder why they didn't get anything for Vrabel. That is still strange to me. They should have been able to get a second for Cassel by himself I would think.

Morph - there were rumors that the Patriots were on the verge of releasing Vrabel for cap purposes and that the Patriots included him in the KC trade rather than him become a FA and join another team.

Posted: 3/2/2009 5:44 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


Vrabel had a $1 million roster bonus due today, so it would not surprise me if that were true. I really think Vrabel was a non-factor in the deal in terms of compensation. The trade was Cassell for the #34 pick. Vrabel was included as a favor to Vrabel as it allowed him to keep that bonus.

Posted: 3/2/2009 5:44 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 



Morpheus11 wrote: If Brady is starting from day one as expected then Cassel and his $14.6 million go to the bench. I still wonder why they didn't get anything for Vrabel. That is still strange to me. They should have been able to get a second for Cassel by himself I would think.

Bizaar???? Tales from the Crypt! Brady does not have to start day 1. The games will begin. Vrabel well..Hummmmmmmmmmmmm???  A lot of us are wondering the same thing. I say we conveen(sp) a commission to get to the facts.  Maybee it was a too-'fa insteed of a gold watch for Pioli? 
On the lighter side, anyone want to bet on how many Dc's they defeer(sp) to 2010 due to cap restrictions?

Posted: 3/3/2009 12:59 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 




----stealthdog666 wrote: ---------------

bceagles24 wrote: The thing with this is we have to wait to see what becomes of the 34th pick if we get the next big player for us or trade it for a good player then it changes everything.

It is not just what the 34th pick is.  It is what the Patriots do with the $20M they freed by moving Cassel and Vrabel.

Some in the media has been very dismissive of the cap situation, and haven't even discussed it in the trade analysis.  The trade was essentially:

New England receives the #34 pick & $20M in cap space
Kansas City receives Vrabel and Cassel

I have a feeling that the #34 pick and $20M will be much more valuable to the 2009 Patriots than Vrabel and Cassel would have been.  I am going with the assumption that Brady will be starting on opening day.

---------------------------------------------

The media ignoring facts which do not support their point is something that I got used to during the 16-0 year. Some are trying to make a big deal out of the trade by saying that it's an infraction on the rules - they know that negative news about BB increases mouse clicks and that's how they make money.

I'm still trying to figure out how filming someone who's not hiding their signs and is in plain view of everyone is a worse infraction than tampering with a player from another team. If we had Deion Branch (i.e. Mangini didn't tamper w/ him and suggest that he was worth more), we would have beaten the colts in the AFC championship game.

Posted: 3/3/2009 6:44 PM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 



stealthdog666 wrote:
bceagles24 wrote: The thing with this is we have to wait to see what becomes of the 34th pick if we get the next big player for us or trade it for a good player then it changes everything.

It is not just what the 34th pick is.  It is what the Patriots do with the $20M they freed by moving Cassel and Vrabel.

Some in the media has been very dismissive of the cap situation, and haven't even discussed it in the trade analysis.  The trade was essentially:

New England receives the #34 pick & $20M in cap space
Kansas City receives Vrabel and Cassel

I have a feeling that the #34 pick and $20M will be much more valuable to the 2009 Patriots than Vrabel and Cassel would have been.  I am going with the assumption that Brady will be starting on opening day.
Thats a good point that I forgot about. I think that money is going to Wilfork and then one of Mankins or Seymour whichever they value more.

Posted: 3/4/2009 10:28 AM

Re: Trade Detail Clarification 


I can only hope the money is going to Mankins,  Hes the one best positive we have ont he O Line.  If hes gone then expect Brady to loose more than his knee caps.