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BB Drafting flaw
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Posted: 10/26/2012 10:11 PM
BB Drafting flaw
I have been thinking on why certain positions BB drafts just dont seem to work out. Most notably CB, Safety and WR. And the answer I came up with is a simply one. Bill likes to draft players that are well rounded but not specifically great in any one aspect of the game. Lets look at the CB's.
Bill will not draft a shout down corner if he is a weak tackler. BB feels if he cant tackle then he can play the run or specials teams. Where I can see the advantage of this on a 53 man roster, but do all the CB's need to be "well rounded" rather then great at one aspect of the game and lacking in the other. McCourty is a perfect example of this drafting philosophy. Coming out of college he was a great return man, solid tackler, good in zone , and average at best in man to man. Where I see a guy who has to play zone or he will get killed BB sees him as a guy who can not only play 3 downs but can play ST as well there for putting a higher value on McCourty then say a true cover corner.
But here is the flaw to this thinking, all your CB cant be good in all aspects of the game. You can have a CB who is a pure shut down corner and make up for his poor tackling with coaching and say a safety that is more a run stopper then a coverage guy. Ty Law was a great cover guy but average to bad tackler and we all know how good he was. The question is why wont BB start drafting players like Law who are great at one aspect of the game rather then a guy like McCourty who is average in all aspects of the game?
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Posted: 10/26/2012 10:27 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Yeah, BB likes positional flexibility.
I guess the meta-question is: just how many shut-down corner types were there to be had in the draft to begin with?
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Posted: 10/26/2012 10:49 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
dokgonzo wrote: Yeah, BB likes positional flexibility.
I guess the meta-question is: just how many shut-down corner types were there to be had in the draft to begin with? Depends on what year you are talking about. And you could add "cover" corner to the category of Shut Down corner. That may be a better term.
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Posted: 10/27/2012 12:55 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
I'm not excusing BB's picks, but the good corners do seem to have a tendency to get injured. Revis. Lee. Reed. The Pats secondary has always been plagued with injuries as well, going back to and including the SB years.
So, in a way, I can understand BB's approach. He may assume that anyone he gets will spend 1/3 to 1/2 the season inactive, so he needs a group that can play multiple positions.
That said, Dowling had injury issues all through college, as I understand it. So picking him in the early rounds knowing that seems kind of ... well ... moronic in hindsight.
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Posted: 10/27/2012 8:48 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Clearly Belichick likes flexibility. But its not like he really has much of a choice in the draft because the 1-2 elite CBs and Safeties in the draft are always long gone before the Patriots picks. Its not like he has been passing over these guys. I'm sure he would love to have Barron or Haden, or any of the CB/S that have gone in the top 10-15 in the drafts. The Patriots choices are usually take a second tier talent or take a gamble on a guy who fell (Dennard/Pacman Jones) who fell because of personal problems.
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Posted: 10/27/2012 9:43 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
I actually think McCourty is one of the best in the NFL in defending the run game, for whatever that's worth.
Regarding BB's track record with drafting DB's, it is frustrating that we haven't been able to come up with better results. However, a couple things are important to remember, in my opinion.
First, the best CB's are often high first round picks. That prevents BB from even having a shot at drafting them.
Second, and this is very important, I don't know what the numbers are but there are a lot of DB's drafted every year and I am sure that the percentage of them that end up being even "good" NFL DB's is probably very, very low. Every other team's fans are probably having these same discussions. It seems clear to me as I watch a lot of games every week that there are very few really good defensive backfields in the NFL. Those few DB's that end up being good and who were not high draft picks, in my opinion, is just a case of a team getting lucky with a pick rather than them being better at drafting than other teams.
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“I don’t have a response. If I had a response to everything that people said about me or us, then I’d be busy all freaking day responding to things." -- Tom Brady, September 2007
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Posted: 10/27/2012 2:22 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Asante Samuel - 4th round.
Lawyer Milloy - 2nd round.
Ty Law - 1st round.
James Sanders - 4th round.
Rodney Harrison - 5th round.
Tebucky Jones - 1st round.
So, ok, when the Pats had a killer secondary they had high draft picks back there. But some really good DB's were also late picks. So who knows?
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- sakes
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Posted: 10/28/2012 12:33 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
I think that it's only WR's and DB's that haven't worked out.
I think that we have some good RB's and TE's from the last few years, which is an understatement. Additionally Mayo, Jones, Hightower, Wilfork, Solder, Mankins, Wilfork, Gostkowski, Seymour, Light, Koppen, Edelman & a 2nd pick traded for Welker have all worked out. There aren't many teams that can point to this # of solid players/stars in the last 10 years (and I'm not including Brady).
I actually have 90% confidence in their drafting and I'm not overly worried about the WR's/TE's. The DB's are the big problem. I'd hate to say it but I think Mangini's last year was the year of our last Super Bowl. We haven't found a way to replace them through draft our free agency yet.
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Posted: 10/28/2012 12:55 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
But then you look around the league and how many 1st and 2nd round WR/DB's end up being wicked good and also are able to stay healthy? Not many. Next to QB, these two spots are probably the biggest crap shoot.
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Posted: 10/28/2012 6:55 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
The concept of the "shutdown corner" really doesn't even exist in the NFL anymore. There is really only one guy, Revis, who might be called that. And without going too far down that road, let's just say that he gets away with a lot more than most every other corner in the NFL, which allows him to be that "shutdown corner".
In the end you are doing well if you can get a guy or two that stand out a bit above the other corners in this passing league where DB's aren't allowed to breathe or look sideways at somebody without a penalty or fine.
The Pats pass D has been bad, for sure. But I'm not so concerned that QB's throw for 300 against them. Sure I'd like that to not happen more than it does happen. But throwing for 300 yards used to be an accomplishment for QB's. Now half the QB's in the league do it every week. The thing that is the most concerning is the number of big plays given up. And even more than that, the number of big plays they are giving up in the 4th quarter when they are trying to hold a lead.
I guess BB just has to keep trying to draft or sign a CB that can be consistent as a cover man (the current guys sometimes show they can do it, but they are very inconsistent). BB also needs to find someone who can stay healthy. And drafting CB's like Dowling and Wheatley who already have an injury history from college is probably not something he should keep doing.
Finally, no matter who they draft I agree that a lot of the problem is coaching. Why after all this time is McCourty still having trouble turning and finding the ball. That's coaching. He was at his best as a rookie and has regressed. Why is this happening and why isn't it being corrected? So many times he has good coverage but just can't make a play on the ball.
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“I don’t have a response. If I had a response to everything that people said about me or us, then I’d be busy all freaking day responding to things." -- Tom Brady, September 2007
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Posted: 10/28/2012 11:56 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Also factor in who they practice against every week for the last couple years - Welker, Branch, Lloyd, Ocho, Brady, Gronk, Hernandez. How can you defend against this calibre of player week after week in practice and get *worse*? How can they all get worse, in unison?
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Posted: 10/29/2012 9:12 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
 dokgonzo wrote: Yeah, BB likes positional flexibility.
I guess the meta-question is: just how many shut-down corner types were there to be had in the draft to begin with? dokgonzo ~ He does, hugh? Has Sir Bill walked the talk over the last several drafts where, he has no less than 6 picks in the first three rounds and, this year has been a disaster in the D secondary. Well quess we can't call him a visionary now, can we. We waited all season for "The Perfect Storm/Game". For certain your knowlege of the Patriots exceeds mine. Seems the Pats need faster defenders and, defenders who keep an eye on the pass. A little more hight wouldn't hurt, either. Yesterday was a great game and confidence builder however, lets not forget who the opponent was. |
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Posted: 10/29/2012 12:52 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Who is this "hugh" of which you speak?
If you also noticed yesterday, when the DB's played close coverage right from the snap, they actually did well. When they were playing that 8-yards off stuff at the start of the game, not so much. Oh, and blitzing helped.
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Posted: 10/29/2012 3:22 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
FWIW I think Dennard has looked pretty good. Pretty good for a 7th rounder with 'issues'.
Getting Hightower and Jones on the field at the same time is a definite plus.
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Posted: 10/29/2012 3:48 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
usernameNEP wrote:
dokgonzo wrote: Yeah, BB likes positional flexibility.
I guess the meta-question is: just how many shut-down corner types were there to be had in the draft to begin with? dokgonzo ~ He does, hugh? Has Sir Bill walked the talk over the last several drafts where, he has no less than 6 picks in the first three rounds and, this year has been a disaster in the D secondary. Well quess we can't call him a visionary now, can we. We waited all season for "The Perfect Storm/Game". For certain your knowlege of the Patriots exceeds mine. Seems the Pats need faster defenders and, defenders who keep an eye on the pass. A little more hight wouldn't hurt, either. Yesterday was a great game and confidence builder however, lets not forget who the opponent was. In the last 3 drafts Belichick has brought in: 1) TE Gronkowski (2010) - best TE in the game 2) TE Hernandez (2010) - one of the top 5 TEs in the game 3) LB Spikes (2010) - a pretty solid ILB 4) OT Solder (2011) - solid looking LT 5) RB Ridley (2011) - on pace for 1400 yards and impact RB 6) DE Jones (2012) - going to have more than 10 sacks as a rookie 7) LB Hightower (2012) - looks great his rookie year so far That looks like 7 impact players in 3 drafts. There are other guys from those 3 classes that are also contributing. I get that the secondary leaves much to be desired, but I think some people seriously need to step back and look around the league a bit. The reason why the Patriots have owned the AFC East is because Belichick keeps bringing in quality young talent through the draft. He is clearly better at some positions than others, but the Patriots have been one of the top drafting teams in the last decade. The Patriots went from one of the oldest teams in the league to retooled while still maintaining dominance. What other teams have done that? |
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Posted: 10/29/2012 4:05 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Lets also not forget:
2010 - P Zoltan Mesko (very good punter)
And two guys who are becoming impact players this season:
2010 - DL Jermaine Cunningham
2011 - RB Shane Vereen
I still think at least one of Dennard and Wilson will stick and be very solid. Maybe both. Wilson does seem to tackle well and, while he makes rookie mistakes, he also makes a lot of solid plays. Dennard is just getting on the field, by Thanksgiving he could be awesome. If they change how they use McCourty, he'll end up being considered an impact player - right now the coaching/scheme are not helping him.
There were articles about it at the beginning of the season - this is the youngest Patriots roster BB has coached. For the number of rookies and 2nd year players that are starting, especially on D, they're doing awesome.
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Posted: 11/1/2012 10:36 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Have a little time and thought I would do a little revisit of past drafts today and a look ahead to this years draft tomorrow.
Only going 4 years back because rookie deals are usually only 4 years....so....
2009:
2(34) Chung - starter, solid when healthy
2(40) Brace - bust early, seems a solid rotational guy this year
2(41) Butler - bust and no longer with team, now with Indianapolis
2(58) Vollmer - starter, very good RT when healthy
3(83) Tate - bust and no longer with team, with Cincinatti
3(97) McKenzie - injured and trying to make it with the Vikings
4(123) Ohrnberger - no longer with team, now with Arizona
5(170) Bussey - no longer with team, out of league
6(198) Ingram - no longer with team, out of league
6(207) Pryor - has been a decent rotational guy when healthy
7(232) Edelman - pretty good contributor
7(234) Richard - injured and out of the league
Undrafted Hoyer - Brady's backup for several seasons
12 picks - 6 in the 2nd/3rd rounds, 6 after.
5 remain on the roster (42%). 9 still in the league (75%).
3 are starters or contribute alot.
My grade - C-
Would think they would get more bang for the buck with 12 selections. Bonus point goes for getting Hoyer. Vollmer is a top RT when he is on the field. Brace, Butler, and the 2 3rd rounders were a disappointment....though I will give McKenzie a pass because he was hurt in training camp. I don't know how it compares to other teams, but certainly not Belichick's best.
2010:
1(27) McCourty - starter at CB (and unfortunately still the best CB to date), but has been a rollercoaster of ups and downs
2(42) Gronkowski - best TE in the league. Huge impact player
2(53) Cunningham - playing much better this season and has been a solid rotational rusher
2(62) Spikes - starter at LB and big thumper in the middle
3(90) Price - no longer with team, now with Jacksonville
4(113) Hernandez - top 5 TE in the league. Makes other teams game plan against him
5(150) Mesko - very good P.
6(205) Larsen - no longer with team, now with Tampa Bay
7(208) Welch - no longer with team, now with Philadlephia
7(247) Deaderick - backup DT, doesn't see much PT
7(248) Weston - no longer with team, out of league
7(250) Robinson - no longer with team, now with Cincinatti
Undrafted Fletcher - on IR, but has contributed
Undrafted Love - starting DT and part of the reason the Patriots run D is so good
12 picks - 5 in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds, 7 after.
7 remain on the roster (58%). 11 still in the league (92%).
5 are starters or contribute alot. 6, if you include Love who was undrafted.
My grade - A+
Its hard to argue with this one. 2 pro-bowl caliber impact players on offense, very good MLB, solid punter, and several good role players. If McCourty can ever get back to the way he was, this might be the best draft of any team in the NFL in the least 10 years.
2011:
1(17) Solder - developing very well and looking at times like a franchise LT. Very athletic. Redrafts typically have in him the top 10.
2(33) Dowling - always hurt and can't get significant time on the field. Danger of being a bust
2(56) Vereen - showing some potential as part of the running attack
3(73) Ridley - Lawfirm who? The most explosive back the Patriots have had since Dillon
3(74) Mallet - displaced Hoyer as Brady's backup
5(138) Cannon - solid rotational OLman
5(159) Smith - no longer with team, now with Buffalo
6(194) Carter - no longer with team, no longer in league
7(219) Williams - backup DB...haven't really seen him much
9 picks - 5 in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds, 4 after.
7 remain on the roster (78%). 8 still in the league (89%).
2 are starters or contribute alot.
My grade - B
Its still a real early grade. If all they get out of a draft is an elite Franchise LT, the draft will be at worst an A-. Solder, Ridley, Vereen, and Cannon all seem to be progressing well. Mallet showed enough to release Hoyer. Can't compare to 2010, but seems promising.
2012:
1(21) Jones - starting DE, early favorite for DROY
1(25) Hightower - starting LB, making alot of impact plays
2(48) Wilson - starting S because of injuries, making plays, but too early to rate
3(90) Bequette - backup DE
6(197) Ebner - special teamer and being forced to play in secondary because of injuries
7(224) Dennard - playing alot in secondary....looking solid most of the time
7(235) Ebert - no longer with team, now with Philadelphia
Undrafted Bolden - has looked really good
7 picks - 4 in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds, 3 in 6th/7th.
6 remain on the roster (86%). 7 still in the league (100%).
2 are quality starters, 2 are starting because of injuries.
My grade - A-
Its still a real early grade. Jones and Hightower seem to have pushed a huge amoutn of youth and athleticism into the front 7. Wilson and Dennard....too early to see what we have here. Bequette and Ebner seem ok...Ebner much more developmental. If Wilson and/or Dennard and/or Bolden improve and Jones/Hightower continue to light it up, this is another slam dunk draft.
Overall rollup for the last 4 years:
40 picks - 20 in the first 3 rounds, 20 after
25 remain on the roster (63%). 35 still in the league (88%)
Almost 1/2 of the Patriots roster is from guys drafted in the last 4 years. What is telling though is 88% of Patriots draftees over the last 4 years are still in the league. They may not have panned out with the Patriots, but they are still NFL quality players. The scouts seems to be able to identify the talent....just not correctly be able to predict how that talent will fit with the Patriots all the time.
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Posted: 11/1/2012 11:59 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
stealthdog666 wrote: Have a little time and thought I would do a little revisit of past drafts today and a look ahead to this years draft tomorrow.
Only going 4 years back because rookie deals are usually only 4 years....so....
2009:
2(34) Chung - starter, solid when healthy
2(40) Brace - bust early, seems a solid rotational guy this year
2(41) Butler - bust and no longer with team, now with Indianapolis
2(58) Vollmer - starter, very good RT when healthy
3(83) Tate - bust and no longer with team, with Cincinatti
3(97) McKenzie - injured and trying to make it with the Vikings
4(123) Ohrnberger - no longer with team, now with Arizona
5(170) Bussey - no longer with team, out of league
6(198) Ingram - no longer with team, out of league
6(207) Pryor - has been a decent rotational guy when healthy
7(232) Edelman - pretty good contributor
7(234) Richard - injured and out of the league
Undrafted Hoyer - Brady's backup for several seasons
12 picks - 6 in the 2nd/3rd rounds, 6 after.
5 remain on the roster (42%). 9 still in the league (75%).
3 are starters or contribute alot.
My grade - C-
Would think they would get more bang for the buck with 12 selections. Bonus point goes for getting Hoyer. Vollmer is a top RT when he is on the field. Brace, Butler, and the 2 3rd rounders were a disappointment....though I will give McKenzie a pass because he was hurt in training camp. I don't know how it compares to other teams, but certainly not Belichick's best.
2010:
1(27) McCourty - starter at CB (and unfortunately still the best CB to date), but has been a rollercoaster of ups and downs
2(42) Gronkowski - best TE in the league. Huge impact player
2(53) Cunningham - playing much better this season and has been a solid rotational rusher
2(62) Spikes - starter at LB and big thumper in the middle
3(90) Price - no longer with team, now with Jacksonville
4(113) Hernandez - top 5 TE in the league. Makes other teams game plan against him
5(150) Mesko - very good P.
6(205) Larsen - no longer with team, now with Tampa Bay
7(208) Welch - no longer with team, now with Philadlephia
7(247) Deaderick - backup DT, doesn't see much PT
7(248) Weston - no longer with team, out of league
7(250) Robinson - no longer with team, now with Cincinatti
Undrafted Fletcher - on IR, but has contributed
Undrafted Love - starting DT and part of the reason the Patriots run D is so good
12 picks - 5 in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds, 7 after.
7 remain on the roster (58%). 11 still in the league (92%).
5 are starters or contribute alot. 6, if you include Love who was undrafted.
My grade - A+
Its hard to argue with this one. 2 pro-bowl caliber impact players on offense, very good MLB, solid punter, and several good role players. If McCourty can ever get back to the way he was, this might be the best draft of any team in the NFL in the least 10 years.
2011:
1(17) Solder - developing very well and looking at times like a franchise LT. Very athletic. Redrafts typically have in him the top 10.
2(33) Dowling - always hurt and can't get significant time on the field. Danger of being a bust
2(56) Vereen - showing some potential as part of the running attack
3(73) Ridley - Lawfirm who? The most explosive back the Patriots have had since Dillon
3(74) Mallet - displaced Hoyer as Brady's backup
5(138) Cannon - solid rotational OLman
5(159) Smith - no longer with team, now with Buffalo
6(194) Carter - no longer with team, no longer in league
7(219) Williams - backup DB...haven't really seen him much
9 picks - 5 in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds, 4 after.
7 remain on the roster (78%). 8 still in the league (89%).
2 are starters or contribute alot.
My grade - B
Its still a real early grade. If all they get out of a draft is an elite Franchise LT, the draft will be at worst an A-. Solder, Ridley, Vereen, and Cannon all seem to be progressing well. Mallet showed enough to release Hoyer. Can't compare to 2010, but seems promising.
2012:
1(21) Jones - starting DE, early favorite for DROY
1(25) Hightower - starting LB, making alot of impact plays
2(48) Wilson - starting S because of injuries, making plays, but too early to rate
3(90) Bequette - backup DE
6(197) Ebner - special teamer and being forced to play in secondary because of injuries
7(224) Dennard - playing alot in secondary....looking solid most of the time
7(235) Ebert - no longer with team, now with Philadelphia
Undrafted Bolden - has looked really good
7 picks - 4 in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds, 3 in 6th/7th.
6 remain on the roster (86%). 7 still in the league (100%).
2 are quality starters, 2 are starting because of injuries.
My grade - A-
Its still a real early grade. Jones and Hightower seem to have pushed a huge amoutn of youth and athleticism into the front 7. Wilson and Dennard....too early to see what we have here. Bequette and Ebner seem ok...Ebner much more developmental. If Wilson and/or Dennard and/or Bolden improve and Jones/Hightower continue to light it up, this is another slam dunk draft.
Overall rollup for the last 4 years:
40 picks - 20 in the first 3 rounds, 20 after
25 remain on the roster (63%). 35 still in the league (88%)
Almost 1/2 of the Patriots roster is from guys drafted in the last 4 years. What is telling though is 88% of Patriots draftees over the last 4 years are still in the league. They may not have panned out with the Patriots, but they are still NFL quality players. The scouts seems to be able to identify the talent....just not correctly be able to predict how that talent will fit with the Patriots all the time. What you dont see in any of those drafts are CB, WR or saftys that are impact type players. I loved the Chung pick, but for a 2nd round pick he is more Bust than boom. He is often hurt and is not the big hitter or run stopper we hoped he would be. McCourty for a 1st round pick is a bust and is only getting worse not better. We have all known for the last 4 years that the defensive backfield need to be improved and it has not. |
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- DerekLarsson2
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Posted: 11/1/2012 9:29 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw  (2 votes)
I agree, and I had also made a very similar point in a previous thread about Belichick's Secondary track record.
. You can coach special teams techniques (and you also have less risk, if you're only average there).
. You can coach tackling technique.
. You can coach position versatility.
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But you cannot just coach "shutdown corner" talent.
And you cannot coach a 5'10" guy to cover a 6'3" receiver, and have that be a favorable matchup.
CB and Safety and Wide Receiver are all skill positions, and you need to have people that have a proven track record, and clear talent at those skills.
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Posted: 11/1/2012 9:45 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Having better position coaches would help the development of skill positions.
In interviews when he was leaving, Asante Samuel pretty much said that BB's influence made him into a shut-down corner. Taught him how to break on the ball, and so on. So while the talent needs to be there, you sometimes do need a great coach to bring it out.
The secondary has been going downhill not just because players left, but also because the level of skill coaching them went down. Is it a coincidence that Mangina was the secondary coach for all the SB years?
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Posted: 11/1/2012 10:46 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Its nice when u can get pressure on the QB.I think this team could do a much better job in terms of getting to the QB.Add the blitz to ur scheme.I think Hightower is that type of linebacker.It sure helps the secondary.I am not a fan of Josh Boyer and Matt Patricia.
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Posted: 11/2/2012 10:19 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Great Blue doesn't appear to be doing a big board yet, so I'm going to use Walter's. Many of these are draft eligible juniors who may not declare, but a fault with this list is Walter's doesn't annotate them.
Seems like there are alot more interesting safeties in this draft than last year. A ton of DTs high on the board and will probably be long gone by the time the Patriots draft. Also, a number of quality WRs in the late 1st-3rd round range.
http://walterfootball.com/draft2013bigboard.php
1 OLB Jones - UGA
2 DT Lotulelei - Utah
3 OT Joeckel - aTm
4 CB Milliner - Bama
5 DT Hankins - OSU
6 DE Mingo - LSU
7 DE Montgomery - LSU
8 QB Barkley - Southern Cal
9 QB Smith - WVU
10 DE Moore - aTm
11 ILB Te'o - ND
12 DT Short - Purdue
13 DT Richardson - Missouri
14 CB Rhodes - FSU
15 DE Werner - FSU
16 OT Matthews - aTm
17 OL Jones - Bama
18 CB Banks - MSU
19 WR Allen - Cal
20 QB Wilson - Arkansas
21 WR Williams - Baylor
22 S Jefferson - Oklahoma
23 CB Amerson - NC State
24 DE Okafor - UT
25 WR Hunter - Tennessee
Round 1-2 Prospects:
26 Jonathan Jenkins, DT, Georgia
27 Corey Lemonier, DE, Auburn
28 Chance Warmack, G, Alabama
29 Giovani Bernard, RB, North Carolina
30 Joseph Randle, RB, Oklahoma State
31 Da'Rick Rodgers, WR, Tennessee Tech
32 DeAndre Hopkins, WR, Clemson 33 Robert Woods, WR, USC 34 Kenny Vaccaro, S, Texas 35 Tyler Bray, QB, Tennessee 36 T.J. McDonald, S, USC 37 Matt Elam, S, Florida 38 Tyler Eifert, TE, Notre Dame 39 Jordan Poyer, CB, Oregon State 40 Eric Reid, S, LSU 41 Taylor Lewan, OT, Michigan 42 Sylvester Williams, DT, North Carolina 43 Brennan Williams, OT, North Carolina 44 Jonathan Cooper, G, North Carolina 45 D.J. Fluker, OT, Alabama
Round 2-3 Prospects:
46 Desmond Trufant, CB, Washington 47 Oday Aboushi, OT, Virginia 48 Jackson Jeffcoat, DE, Texas 49 Sharrif Floyd, DT, Florida 50 Jonathan Brown, OLB, Illinois 51 Joseph Fauria, TE, UCLA 52 Marquess Wilson, WR, Washington State 53 E.J. Manuel, QB, Florida State 54 Sean Porter, OLB, Texas A&M 55 John Simon, DE, Ohio State 56 Shayne Skov, LB, Stanford 57 Le'Veon Bell, RB, Michigan State 58 Ricky Wagner, OT, Wisconsin 59 Ryan Swope, WR, Texas A&M 60 Carrington Byndom, CB, Texas 61 Gerald Hodges, LB, Penn State 62 Khaled Holmes, C, USC 63 Michael Dyer, RB, Arkansas State++ 64 Alex Hurst, OT, LSU 65 Micah Hyde, CB, Iowa 66 Kenny Stills, WR, Oklahoma 67 Jesse Williams, DT, Alabama 68 Tyrann Mathieu, CB, LSU++ 69 Jelani Jenkins, OLB, Florida 70 Bacarri Rambo, S, Georgia 71 Brandon Jenkins, QB, Florida State 72 Chris Faulk, OT, LSU 73 William Gholston, DE, Michigan State 74 Robert Lester, S, Alabama 75 Montee Ball, RB, Wisconsin 76 Aaron Donald, DE, Pittsburgh
Once again SEC dominance....12 of the top 25 are from SEC schools. Stick with the SEC and you can't go wrong.
Games to watch this week (purely for draft reasons):
12PM - Texas A&M-Mississippi St
#3 OT Joeckel (aTm)
#10 DE Moore (aTm)
#16 OT Matthews (aTm)
#18 CB Banks (MSU) - http://walterfootball.com/scou...t2013jbanks.php
#54 OLB Porter (aTm)
#59 WR Swope (aTm) - http://walterfootball.com/scou...t2013rswope.php
3:30PM - Texas-Texas Tech
#24 DE Okafor (UT) - http://walterfootball.com/scou...2013aokafor.php
#34 S Vaccaro (UT) - http://walterfootball.com/scou...013kvaccaro.php
#48 DE Jeffcoat (UT) - http://walterfootball.com/scou...13jjeffcoat.php
8PM - Bama-LSU
#4 CB Milliner (Bama)
#6 DE Mingo (LSU)
#7 DE Montgomery (LSU)
#17 OL Jones (Bama)
#40 S Reid (LSU) - http://walterfootball.com/scou...rt2013ereid.php
#45 OT Fluker (Bama)
#64 OT Hurst (LSU)
#72 OT Faulk (LSU)
#74 S Lester (Bama) - http://walterfootball.com/scou...2013rlester.php
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Posted: 11/2/2012 1:51 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
And this is Walter's recent mock: #29 - New England Patriots: Terrance Williams, WR, Baylor
It's amazing that New England's offense has been this incredible considering that Deion Branch is playing two-thirds of the snaps every game. Imagine how explosive the Patriots would be if they added a legitimate threat opposite Brandon Lloyd.
#59 - New England Patriots: Travis Frederick, G/C, Wisconsin
Bill Belichick loves versatile offensive linemen. Travis Frederick can play all three inside positions. This is key because the Patriots need to do something about the interior of their offensive front. Tom Brady has gotten killed at times because of poor blocking.
#91 - New England Patriots: Ezekiel Ansah, DE, BYU
Chandler Jones has had a monstrous rookie campaign thus far, but the Patriots need someone across from him to get to the quarterback, as Jermaine Cunningham has been a disappointment.
I'd be fine with all 3, but I don't get the comment for Ansah. Ninkovich is playing opposite Jones and has been playing awesome. Cunningham has just been in for passing plays and has looked good at that this year too. That said, I'd be all over Ansah. Physically, he looks alot like Jones. Having him and Jones at opposite ends could be incredible. |
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Posted: 11/5/2012 9:38 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
dokgonzo wrote: Asante Samuel - 4th round.
Lawyer Milloy - 2nd round.
Ty Law - 1st round.
James Sanders - 4th round.
Rodney Harrison - 5th round.
Tebucky Jones - 1st round.
So, ok, when the Pats had a killer secondary they had high draft picks back there. But some really good DB's were also late picks. So who knows? Dok.......Not for nothing but, are you cherry picking with this line up? How 'bout a re-post with the year they were drafted AND, if Sir Bil traded whatever way to secure the choice? You list a KILLER secondary........................... |
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Posted: 11/5/2012 9:48 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
dokgonzo wrote: Having better position coaches would help the development of skill positions.
In interviews when he was leaving, Asante Samuel pretty much said that BB's influence made him into a shut-down corner. Taught him how to break on the ball, and so on. So while the talent needs to be there, you sometimes do need a great coach to bring it out.
The secondary has been going downhill not just because players left, but also because the level of skill coaching them went down. Is it a coincidence that Mangina was the secondary coach for all the SB years? DEFENSIVE SECONDAY STATS:
Regular Season: Overall: YPG:
2007 6Th. 190.
2008 11Th. 201.
2009 12Th. 210.
2010 30Th. 268.
2011 31St. 294.
2012 [8 games] 28Th. 281.
My take ~ [Amature Eyes] When they unloaded AS, I really was led to believe they would bring in someone to take his place. They did not and it shows. Aquib Taleb can be considered the closest thing to replacing AS. He will be a game changer. In limiting the discussion to defenssive secondary and no other positions, New England has been a colossal failure over the past three seasons. They simple do not have the proper skills to be effective back there. Bill should use the "swinging door" approach to secondary selection. Sorta, kinda like fat Albert and Ocho approach.
I have no problem whatsoever with releasing a player seeking to break the bank. Unfortunately Welker could be next. Well past the time to think seriously about a defensive re-build, to include the secondary.
Tom Brady will not last forever and now is the time to act.
Last edited 11/5/2012 10:01 AM by usernameNEP
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Posted: 11/5/2012 12:11 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Not sure it was just one player or the transition into "rebuilding mode." Sadly, they tried to rebuild with players who weren't starters.
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Posted: 11/5/2012 1:16 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
They tried to rebuild with younger players who were good NFL players (Thomas and Colvin, for example). Those guys just never panned out.
The core of the Patriots defense (minus Wilfork) just all got old at the same time. And when you are always drafting in the late 20s in the 1st round, you aren't going to get one of those safer top 10 picks.
Last edited 11/5/2012 1:17 PM by stealthdog666
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Posted: 11/5/2012 1:33 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Rosie Colvin didn't work out? Since when?
Afalius Thomas sure didn't, but it was an attitude problem there. Not the same as what's gone on in the secondary.
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Posted: 11/5/2012 3:24 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Maybe we are remembering different Colvin's? The Colvin I remember got a fat contract from the Patriots - in fact it was the biggest contract the Patriots had ever given a FA (at that time). The Patriots gave him 6 years, $25.85M after he recorded back-to-back 10 sack seasons with the Bears. He got hurt his 1st year and didn't play a ton his 2nd year. Started 11 and 15 games the 3rd/4th years. Was put in IR again his 5th year and then ended up getting cut the 6th year. Never came close to the production he had in Chicago and certainly wasn't worth the $26M contract the Patriots got him. If he was the player the Patriots thought they were getting, he would have been a staple in the LB until probably about this year (he just turned 35). Which Colvin do you remember?  As for Thomas - he passed Colvin as the biggest FA contract the Patriots gave out (5 years, $35M). It had an effect on the secondary though. The two biggest FA contracts the Patriots had in the mid 2000s both flamed out. Neither worked out and cost the Patriots a ton in cap $. I have a feeling that contributed to Belichick not bringing in high priced FAs in the secondary the last 4-5 years. FA CBs make a ton of $. Look at Asomugha - he was considered one of the top 3 CBs in the league. Got a huge deal with Philly and now they are stuck with his contract. |
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Posted: 11/5/2012 4:18 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
OK. Colvin didn't live up to hopes, but when he was healthy he did perform. You can never tell with injuries, I don't hold that against him.
Thomas was a disaster. His only injury issue was all the baggage he lugged up from Baltimore.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 6:56 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
stealthdog666 wrote:
usernameNEP wrote:
dokgonzo wrote: Yeah, BB likes positional flexibility.
I guess the meta-question is: just how many shut-down corner types were there to be had in the draft to begin with? dokgonzo ~ He does, hugh? Has Sir Bill walked the talk over the last several drafts where, he has no less than 6 picks in the first three rounds and, this year has been a disaster in the D secondary. Well quess we can't call him a visionary now, can we. We waited all season for "The Perfect Storm/Game". For certain your knowlege of the Patriots exceeds mine. Seems the Pats need faster defenders and, defenders who keep an eye on the pass. A little more hight wouldn't hurt, either. Yesterday was a great game and confidence builder however, lets not forget who the opponent was.
In the last 3 drafts Belichick has brought in:
1) TE Gronkowski (2010) - best TE in the game
2) TE Hernandez (2010) - one of the top 5 TEs in the game
3) LB Spikes (2010) - a pretty solid ILB
4) OT Solder (2011) - solid looking LT
5) RB Ridley (2011) - on pace for 1400 yards and impact RB
6) DE Jones (2012) - going to have more than 10 sacks as a rookie
7) LB Hightower (2012) - looks great his rookie year so far
That looks like 7 impact players in 3 drafts. There are other guys from those 3 classes that are also contributing. I get that the secondary leaves much to be desired, but I think some people seriously need to step back and look around the league a bit. The reason why the Patriots have owned the AFC East is because Belichick keeps bringing in quality young talent through the draft. He is clearly better at some positions than others, but the Patriots have been one of the top drafting teams in the last decade.
The Patriots went from one of the oldest teams in the league to retooled while still maintaining dominance. What other teams have done that? dog666..............I can not disagree with the players you mentioned. Good selections, all of them BUT, you are off-point. Excuse me but isn't this discussion about a very, very weak and unskilled D secondary? New England will go nowhere with them in place. |
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Posted: 11/6/2012 7:06 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
stealthdog666 wrote: They tried to rebuild with younger players who were good NFL players (Thomas and Colvin, for example). Those guys just never panned out.
The core of the Patriots defense (minus Wilfork) just all got old at the same time. And when you are always drafting in the late 20s in the 1st round, you aren't going to get one of those safer top 10 picks. dog666............ and most of the time they trade down to get there which, in my view, certainly has to be considered a drafting flaw. It remains no stretch, that the Patriots have "devalued" money in their draft model.By trading down near 100% of the time, they avoid it. |
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Posted: 11/6/2012 9:15 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Thats not true - most of the time the Patriots are originally selecting in the late 20s/early 30s because they have been 12-4 and AFC champs. They have had a couple of extra 1sts as the result of trade downs the previous year.
Gronkowski was selected with a pick that was part of a trade down. Without getting that extra selection, he wouldn't be on the team. It works at times and it doesn't at others. The Patriots traded up twice this last draft to get Jones and Hightower and both of them seem to have worked out too. Sometimes they trade up, most times they trade down. Many times it has worked.
And yeah, it was a thread about CBs/Ss....but the draft is not a vacuum like that. I think we can all acknowledge that they have done a poor job at adding quality secondary players. But the implication is that the drafting has been poor. I was only pointing out that the Patriots are where they are right now because they have drafted better than just about every other team out there. The secondary (and WR) are the only two areas they have struggled.
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Posted: 11/6/2012 9:44 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Besides...I needed a draft thread on this forum to post the draft stuff. Putting it on the draft board will get empty eyes until after the season leading up to the draft. :) That said....GBN finally posted their Top 100 big board: http://www.gbnreport.com/top100.html |
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Posted: 11/8/2012 11:01 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
vinnybravo wrote:
stealthdog666 wrote: Have a little time and thought I would do a little revisit of past drafts today and a look ahead to this years draft tomorrow.
Only going 4 years back because rookie deals are usually only 4 years....so....
2009:
2(34) Chung - starter, solid when healthy
2(40) Brace - bust early, seems a solid rotational guy this year
2(41) Butler - bust and no longer with team, now with Indianapolis
2(58) Vollmer - starter, very good RT when healthy
3(83) Tate - bust and no longer with team, with Cincinatti
3(97) McKenzie - injured and trying to make it with the Vikings
4(123) Ohrnberger - no longer with team, now with Arizona
5(170) Bussey - no longer with team, out of league
6(198) Ingram - no longer with team, out of league
6(207) Pryor - has been a decent rotational guy when healthy
7(232) Edelman - pretty good contributor
7(234) Richard - injured and out of the league
Undrafted Hoyer - Brady's backup for several seasons
12 picks - 6 in the 2nd/3rd rounds, 6 after.
5 remain on the roster (42%). 9 still in the league (75%).
3 are starters or contribute alot.
My grade - C-
Would think they would get more bang for the buck with 12 selections. Bonus point goes for getting Hoyer. Vollmer is a top RT when he is on the field. Brace, Butler, and the 2 3rd rounders were a disappointment....though I will give McKenzie a pass because he was hurt in training camp. I don't know how it compares to other teams, but certainly not Belichick's best.
2010:
1(27) McCourty - starter at CB (and unfortunately still the best CB to date), but has been a rollercoaster of ups and downs
2(42) Gronkowski - best TE in the league. Huge impact player
2(53) Cunningham - playing much better this season and has been a solid rotational rusher
2(62) Spikes - starter at LB and big thumper in the middle
3(90) Price - no longer with team, now with Jacksonville
4(113) Hernandez - top 5 TE in the league. Makes other teams game plan against him
5(150) Mesko - very good P.
6(205) Larsen - no longer with team, now with Tampa Bay
7(208) Welch - no longer with team, now with Philadlephia
7(247) Deaderick - backup DT, doesn't see much PT
7(248) Weston - no longer with team, out of league
7(250) Robinson - no longer with team, now with Cincinatti
Undrafted Fletcher - on IR, but has contributed
Undrafted Love - starting DT and part of the reason the Patriots run D is so good
12 picks - 5 in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds, 7 after.
7 remain on the roster (58%). 11 still in the league (92%).
5 are starters or contribute alot. 6, if you include Love who was undrafted.
My grade - A+
Its hard to argue with this one. 2 pro-bowl caliber impact players on offense, very good MLB, solid punter, and several good role players. If McCourty can ever get back to the way he was, this might be the best draft of any team in the NFL in the least 10 years.
2011:
1(17) Solder - developing very well and looking at times like a franchise LT. Very athletic. Redrafts typically have in him the top 10.
2(33) Dowling - always hurt and can't get significant time on the field. Danger of being a bust
2(56) Vereen - showing some potential as part of the running attack
3(73) Ridley - Lawfirm who? The most explosive back the Patriots have had since Dillon
3(74) Mallet - displaced Hoyer as Brady's backup
5(138) Cannon - solid rotational OLman
5(159) Smith - no longer with team, now with Buffalo
6(194) Carter - no longer with team, no longer in league
7(219) Williams - backup DB...haven't really seen him much
9 picks - 5 in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds, 4 after.
7 remain on the roster (78%). 8 still in the league (89%).
2 are starters or contribute alot.
My grade - B
Its still a real early grade. If all they get out of a draft is an elite Franchise LT, the draft will be at worst an A-. Solder, Ridley, Vereen, and Cannon all seem to be progressing well. Mallet showed enough to release Hoyer. Can't compare to 2010, but seems promising.
2012:
1(21) Jones - starting DE, early favorite for DROY
1(25) Hightower - starting LB, making alot of impact plays
2(48) Wilson - starting S because of injuries, making plays, but too early to rate
3(90) Bequette - backup DE
6(197) Ebner - special teamer and being forced to play in secondary because of injuries
7(224) Dennard - playing alot in secondary....looking solid most of the time
7(235) Ebert - no longer with team, now with Philadelphia
Undrafted Bolden - has looked really good
7 picks - 4 in the 1st/2nd/3rd rounds, 3 in 6th/7th.
6 remain on the roster (86%). 7 still in the league (100%).
2 are quality starters, 2 are starting because of injuries.
My grade - A-
Its still a real early grade. Jones and Hightower seem to have pushed a huge amoutn of youth and athleticism into the front 7. Wilson and Dennard....too early to see what we have here. Bequette and Ebner seem ok...Ebner much more developmental. If Wilson and/or Dennard and/or Bolden improve and Jones/Hightower continue to light it up, this is another slam dunk draft.
Overall rollup for the last 4 years:
40 picks - 20 in the first 3 rounds, 20 after
25 remain on the roster (63%). 35 still in the league (88%)
Almost 1/2 of the Patriots roster is from guys drafted in the last 4 years. What is telling though is 88% of Patriots draftees over the last 4 years are still in the league. They may not have panned out with the Patriots, but they are still NFL quality players. The scouts seems to be able to identify the talent....just not correctly be able to predict how that talent will fit with the Patriots all the time. What you dont see in any of those drafts are CB, WR or saftys that are impact type players. I loved the Chung pick, but for a 2nd round pick he is more Bust than boom. He is often hurt and is not the big hitter or run stopper we hoped he would be. McCourty for a 1st round pick is a bust and is only getting worse not better.
We have all known for the last 4 years that the defensive backfield need to be improved and it has not. Actually after 4 years of nothing but the same, it STINKS. Why is McCorty still around? |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 5:19 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
stealthdog writes " And yeah, it was a thread about CBs/Ss....but the draft is not a vacuum like that. I think we can all acknowledge that they have done a poor job at adding quality secondary players. But the implication is that the drafting has been poor. I was only pointing out that the Patriots are where they are right now because they have drafted better than just about every other team out there. The secondary (and WR) are the only two areas they have struggled. "Amen brother....they sure have Drafted better you say?? HUmmmmm I would thank Mr. TD Struggled, struggled you say???? D secondary has been a ......disaster for years now. Some, like myself, even .......think it was better LAST year. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:17 AM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
Look around the league. Rules have changed with contact and a large number of teams are struggling in the secondary. Passing records are getting broken every year. Its not just a Patriots thing and its why getting after the QB as quickly as possible is actually more important than the talent you have in the back four now.
Belichick hasn't figured out how to turn the new rules in his favor defensively yet. He always seems to be ahead of the curve (3-4, spread offense, no huddle, etc) that eventually I think he will be able to come up with something to beat the record-breaking passing that is going on league-wide.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 1:51 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
The issue with drafting is that, if you pick where the Pats usually do, you get 2nd teir guys, the should be ok guys not the guaranteed starters. Look at past drafts, the best DB's go early
Morris Claiborne 6th 2012
Mark Barron 7th 2012
Stephon Gillmore 10th 2012
Patrick Peterson 5th 2011
Prince Amukamura 19th 2011
Eric Berry 5th 2010
Joe Haden 7th 2010
Some of those guys would be major upgrades over McCourty, Arrington, Chung but others not worth the contracts they signed for.
And to move from 26-30 to those draft positions the Patriots would have had to give up the larger portion of their draft and some of the next year as well.
So instead we get guys who may develop or can play special teams so the more important guys on the team do not have to. |
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Posted: 11/9/2012 7:30 PM
Re: BB Drafting flaw
I still say the quickest way to improve the secondary is to hire better position coaches.
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