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Bobbie Williams & Bryant McKinnie

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Posted: 11/27/2012 7:56 AM

Bobbie Williams & Bryant McKinnie 


Is there a 'December Surprise' for these two? Or, are the Ravens so blessed that they can burn $4.5M...... I'd like to see the best O'Line start. Which would be McKinnie, Osemele, Birk, Yanda and Oher.

If they (Front Office) made mistakes, like I am thinking on both players, Bobbie being out of football shape and chronically injured and the other deep in the Harbaugh Dog House when not in strip clubs or bankrupt. Hyndsight would say another Edge Rusher or LB would have been a more prudent spend or $4.5M

Here is what my eyes tell me.

- Reid is too stiff and non-athletic to play Guard
- Osemele has trouble with speed rushers (Denver and NY Giants DE's can and will exploit this weakness.
- Birk is a mental asset and a physcial liability especially against strong NT's.
-Oher and Yanda are being asked to be the glue at this time.

You can hide the weaknesses if you run exclusive hurry-ups and two minute-type offense. But, as we've witnessed that always isn't this teams best identity.


Yes, we are 9-2. And I love it. But the record can cloud some rationale thinking. Everyone could see that in the past three games, minus the last three quarters including OT in SD, the O'Line play has been a big weakness.

Last edited 11/29/2012 11:13 PM by 21XXXV

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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:05 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


McKinnie was never that good to begin with last year. Why people want him back at left tackle is beyond comprehension.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:07 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


I Hated the bobbie williams signing..thought it was a dumb move. I think when we play Denver and NYG, youll see alot of help to Osemele and Oher..but im more concerned with the inside..if there is no room for Flacco to step into the pocket thats where the trouble starts..he isnt that mobile of a QB, so when the pocket collapses, the play is over...

Our run game has to pick up over the next few weeks to counter-act other teams pass rush...

"Got a cover of Sports Illustrated..it says the Titans are the best team in football...maybe they are...but not today" Brian Billick

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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:11 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



twazl634 wrote: I Hated the bobbie williams signing..thought it was a dumb move. I think when we play Denver and NYG, youll see alot of help to Osemele and Oher..but im more concerned with the inside..if there is no room for Flacco to step into the pocket thats where the trouble starts..he isnt that mobile of a QB, so when the pocket collapses, the play is over...

Our run game has to pick up over the next few weeks to counter-act other teams pass rush...
I disagree with the 'Joe isn't mobile' comment. This is an issue I have with the team, and I won't argue it, since he has started every game. But, Joe can run and he is much more nimble than most believe. I feel he should rollout out and keep teams Defense's honest with taking what the Defense gives him at time, gaining 8-10 yards and running out of bounds..
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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:26 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


I hate the doghouse stuff because it seems to kill any legit discussion of a player.  It shifts the question from 'why is McKinnie, in general, an unmotivated waste of talent' to the more absurd position of 'why is Harbaugh not using our best players'.  If the FO and coaching staff really thought McKinnie starting was the best option, its hard for me to believe they wouldn't already be doing that.
 photo test_zpsf14d538c.png
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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:28 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



21XXXV wrote:
twazl634 wrote: I Hated the bobbie williams signing..thought it was a dumb move. I think when we play Denver and NYG, youll see alot of help to Osemele and Oher..but im more concerned with the inside..if there is no room for Flacco to step into the pocket thats where the trouble starts..he isnt that mobile of a QB, so when the pocket collapses, the play is over...

Our run game has to pick up over the next few weeks to counter-act other teams pass rush...
I disagree with the 'Joe isn't mobile' comment. This is an issue I have with the team, and I won't argue it, since he has started every game. But, Joe can run and he is much more nimble than most believe. I feel he should rollout out and keep teams Defense's honest with taking what the Defense gives him at time, gaining 8-10 yards and running out of bounds..
21 attempts, for 26 yards this year for Flacco...not very mobile. if the play breaks down, he needs to feel it, and move better outside of the pocket and run for yards.

"Got a cover of Sports Illustrated..it says the Titans are the best team in football...maybe they are...but not today" Brian Billick

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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:33 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



21XXXV wrote:
Here is what my eyes tell me.

- Reid is too stiff and non-athletic to play Guard
- Osemele has trouble with speed rushers (Denver and NY Giants DE's can and will exploit this weakness.
- Birk is a mental asset and a physcial liability especially against strong NT's.
-Oher and Yanda are being asked to be the glue at this time.

You can hide the weaknesses if you run exclusive hurry-ups and two minute-type offense. But, as we've witnessed that always isn't this teams best identity.


Yes, we are 9-2. And I love it. But the record can cloud some rationale thinking. Everyone could see that in the past three games, minus the last three quarters including OT in SD, the O'Line play has been a big weakness.
McKinnie wioll not start another game in a Ravens uniform unless someone gets hurt.
1- I'd rather see Harwood back at LG right now.
2- KO is a rokkie. Needs to work on technique, but Ithink he'll be ok at RT.
3- Birk is done after this year. Gradkowski is propbaly the better physical player right now, but they need Birks experiance when it comes to  protection calls.

I hear a lot of comments on how bad Oher and KO played in SD.  But if you watch the tapes, minus the commentary on single plays, you will see the Bolts brought some crazy well designed blitz's that confused the blocking scheme. Expected from a team that has nothing to lose and brought the house at times..  For the most part we picked them up while a couple hit the mark.. The Ravens countered by throwing more screens.  All in all while not a dominating performance, it wasn't as horrible as some would like to think.. Yes, CBS highlighted the bad play, but ignored some of the better ones the tackles had..
Watch the tape a couple of times,  and then see if you think the line played as bad as some think..
 
Agreed it's not great, but it's not bad...
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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:53 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



twazl634 wrote:
21XXXV wrote:
twazl634 wrote: I Hated the bobbie williams signing..thought it was a dumb move. I think when we play Denver and NYG, youll see alot of help to Osemele and Oher..but im more concerned with the inside..if there is no room for Flacco to step into the pocket thats where the trouble starts..he isnt that mobile of a QB, so when the pocket collapses, the play is over...

Our run game has to pick up over the next few weeks to counter-act other teams pass rush...
I disagree with the 'Joe isn't mobile' comment. This is an issue I have with the team, and I won't argue it, since he has started every game. But, Joe can run and he is much more nimble than most believe. I feel he should rollout out and keep teams Defense's honest with taking what the Defense gives him at time, gaining 8-10 yards and running out of bounds..
21 attempts, for 26 yards this year for Flacco...not very mobile. if the play breaks down, he needs to feel it, and move better outside of the pocket and run for yards.
You completely missed my point, as you usually do. I didn't say he was running, most of those 21 attempts were taking a knee.. My point again, listen carefully.. is, Joe can run if he chooses two, or if the play calls for it. He opts nopt to because the coaching staff suggests he doesn't. I can see both sides to it.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:55 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



ravmaniac wrote:
21XXXV wrote:
Here is what my eyes tell me.

- Reid is too stiff and non-athletic to play Guard
- Osemele has trouble with speed rushers (Denver and NY Giants DE's can and will exploit this weakness.
- Birk is a mental asset and a physcial liability especially against strong NT's.
-Oher and Yanda are being asked to be the glue at this time.

You can hide the weaknesses if you run exclusive hurry-ups and two minute-type offense. But, as we've witnessed that always isn't this teams best identity.


Yes, we are 9-2. And I love it. But the record can cloud some rationale thinking. Everyone could see that in the past three games, minus the last three quarters including OT in SD, the O'Line play has been a big weakness.
McKinnie wioll not start another game in a Ravens uniform unless someone gets hurt.
1- I'd rather see Harwood back at LG right now.
2- KO is a rokkie. Needs to work on technique, but Ithink he'll be ok at RT.
3- Birk is done after this year. Gradkowski is propbaly the better physical player right now, but they need Birks experiance when it comes to  protection calls.

I hear a lot of comments on how bad Oher and KO played in SD.  But if you watch the tapes, minus the commentary on single plays, you will see the Bolts brought some crazy well designed blitz's that confused the blocking scheme. Expected from a team that has nothing to lose and brought the house at times..  For the most part we picked them up while a couple hit the mark.. The Ravens countered by throwing more screens.  All in all while not a dominating performance, it wasn't as horrible as some would like to think.. Yes, CBS highlighted the bad play, but ignored some of the better ones the tackles had..
Watch the tape a couple of times,  and then see if you think the line played as bad as some think..
 
Agreed it's not great, but it's not bad...
Your illusions with Harewood are just not supported with facts.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:56 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



21XXXV wrote:
twazl634 wrote:
21XXXV wrote:
twazl634 wrote: I Hated the bobbie williams signing..thought it was a dumb move. I think when we play Denver and NYG, youll see alot of help to Osemele and Oher..but im more concerned with the inside..if there is no room for Flacco to step into the pocket thats where the trouble starts..he isnt that mobile of a QB, so when the pocket collapses, the play is over...

Our run game has to pick up over the next few weeks to counter-act other teams pass rush...
I disagree with the 'Joe isn't mobile' comment. This is an issue I have with the team, and I won't argue it, since he has started every game. But, Joe can run and he is much more nimble than most believe. I feel he should rollout out and keep teams Defense's honest with taking what the Defense gives him at time, gaining 8-10 yards and running out of bounds..
21 attempts, for 26 yards this year for Flacco...not very mobile. if the play breaks down, he needs to feel it, and move better outside of the pocket and run for yards.
You completely missed my point, as you usually do. I didn't say he was running, most of those 21 attempts were taking a knee.. My point again, listen carefully.. is, Joe can run if he chooses two, or if the play calls for it. He opts nopt to because the coaching staff suggests he doesn't. I can see both sides to it.
my point is he lacks pocket awareness sometimes and doesnt take off downfield when he has room to run to extend a play, rather than take a sack.

"Got a cover of Sports Illustrated..it says the Titans are the best team in football...maybe they are...but not today" Brian Billick

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Posted: 11/27/2012 8:59 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


My complaint is when he does rollout and doesn't plan to run, just get rid of the ball rather than take a loss by running out of bounds. He has done a much better job of that this year.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 9:01 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



21XXXV wrote:
ravmaniac wrote:
21XXXV wrote:
Here is what my eyes tell me.

- Reid is too stiff and non-athletic to play Guard
- Osemele has trouble with speed rushers (Denver and NY Giants DE's can and will exploit this weakness.
- Birk is a mental asset and a physcial liability especially against strong NT's.
-Oher and Yanda are being asked to be the glue at this time.

You can hide the weaknesses if you run exclusive hurry-ups and two minute-type offense. But, as we've witnessed that always isn't this teams best identity.


Yes, we are 9-2. And I love it. But the record can cloud some rationale thinking. Everyone could see that in the past three games, minus the last three quarters including OT in SD, the O'Line play has been a big weakness.
McKinnie wioll not start another game in a Ravens uniform unless someone gets hurt.
1- I'd rather see Harwood back at LG right now.
2- KO is a rokkie. Needs to work on technique, but Ithink he'll be ok at RT.
3- Birk is done after this year. Gradkowski is propbaly the better physical player right now, but they need Birks experiance when it comes to  protection calls.

I hear a lot of comments on how bad Oher and KO played in SD.  But if you watch the tapes, minus the commentary on single plays, you will see the Bolts brought some crazy well designed blitz's that confused the blocking scheme. Expected from a team that has nothing to lose and brought the house at times..  For the most part we picked them up while a couple hit the mark.. The Ravens countered by throwing more screens.  All in all while not a dominating performance, it wasn't as horrible as some would like to think.. Yes, CBS highlighted the bad play, but ignored some of the better ones the tackles had..
Watch the tape a couple of times,  and then see if you think the line played as bad as some think..
 
Agreed it's not great, but it's not bad...
Your illusions with Harewood are just not supported with facts.
Based on
1- Bobbie Williams is a waste of money
2- Reid is not ready to be a starter and might never be.. Just a solid backup..

Harewood didn't play that bad and some even questioned why they benched him in favor of Williams..
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Posted: 11/27/2012 9:07 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


Because Harbaugh hates McKinnie, Osemele is playing RT in lieu of Oher. I am not saying Osemele is terrible, he has some great skills, foot speed isn't one..

But, since Oher may have a longer Raven life span, Harbaugh refuses to use a guy the Front Office paid a 500K  Bonus to, and still pays him $1.5M.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 9:17 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


Birk is the worst one IMO - guy is just done.
But we don't appear to have any better options
...stay classy 'skins fans
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Posted: 11/27/2012 10:53 AM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


Harewood gave us SO much more in the run game.  We were running a lot better until we starting rolling with the Williams/Reid combo.

Harewood wasn't overly mobile, but I think he was more physical and offered something in the B-Gap that we don't have right now.  Physicality.

And I dont think Reid or Williams was a significant upgrade in Pass Pro.


Harewood got scapegoated, then he complained, so now he's in the dog-house.   I'm not a big believer in the doghouse, but when you go to starting for what WAS a top offense, to being inactive . . . I have questions.

In addition, the offensive struggles started right about when Harewood got benched.  Just saying.

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Posted: 11/27/2012 12:11 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


Reid is a Tackle, a RT that should be used as such. Harewood/Osemele/Oher are much better options. There's no reason McKinnie should be on the bench at this point, pure ego. First it was that he was overweight (even though hes MUCH lighter than when he came in last year), and then some bogus reports of him not being committed during the offseason which is BS. If we have to play on the road in the playoffs with this current lineup, we're going to be one and done. Then the excuses will come by the droves, if we nip this in the bud now, we can run the tables.

Its just crazy how our F.O, year after year provides talent that our coaches dont use, only to fall short.
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~Jacoby on Joe~
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Posted: 11/27/2012 12:12 PM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



21XXXV wrote: Because Harbaugh hates McKinnie, Osemele is playing RT in lieu of Oher. I am not saying Osemele is terrible, he has some great skills, foot speed isn't one..

But, since Oher may have a longer Raven life span, Harbaugh refuses to use a guy the Front Office paid a 500K  Bonus to, and still pays him $1.5M.
Ego, plain and simple
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~Jacoby on Joe~
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Posted: 11/27/2012 12:27 PM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



ClericBlackDave wrote:

Harewood gave us SO much more in the run game.  We were running a lot better until we starting rolling with the Williams/Reid combo.

Harewood wasn't overly mobile, but I think he was more physical and offered something in the B-Gap that we don't have right now.  Physicality.

And I dont think Reid or Williams was a significant upgrade in Pass Pro.


Harewood got scapegoated, then he complained, so now he's in the dog-house.   I'm not a big believer in the doghouse, but when you go to starting for what WAS a top offense, to being inactive . . . I have questions.

In addition, the offensive struggles started right about when Harewood got benched.  Just saying.

i didnt understand all this either...a real head scratcher.

"Got a cover of Sports Illustrated..it says the Titans are the best team in football...maybe they are...but not today" Brian Billick

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Posted: 11/27/2012 12:43 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



theravenkidd wrote: Reid is a Tackle, a RT that should be used as such. Harewood/Osemele/Oher are much better options. There's no reason McKinnie should be on the bench at this point, pure ego. First it was that he was overweight (even though hes MUCH lighter than when he came in last year), and then some bogus reports of him not being committed during the offseason which is BS. If we have to play on the road in the playoffs with this current lineup, we're going to be one and done. Then the excuses will come by the droves, if we nip this in the bud now, we can run the tables.

Its just crazy how our F.O, year after year provides talent that our coaches dont use, only to fall short.
This problem started way back in mini camps.. The key to any Offensive line is chemisty. You don't build that by moving guys in and out for no good reason, you build it by having them do everything together.. The managment of the starting line has been dismal.
They should have picked the 5 starters and stayed with them.
  KO is probably a better LG than RT but right now I don't think Reid is the answer over there.. I'm looking for Ozzie to address the tackle position again this off season. Either draft or a free agent or both. 

McKinnie's  not playing because, well, he's a dic.
 After he met with Harbs and Ozzie and promised he'd work out, and we then paid his roster bonus,  he stuck his middle finger in Harbs face when he not only reported late to camp but he showed up over weight and out of shape.

I can't wait to they cut the POS..
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Posted: 11/27/2012 1:01 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


Part of the issue with McKinney could be that Grubbs was a hugh help hiding his weakness and communicating which play we were running. I rememeber hearing something lst year that he was having issue with remembering the plays.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 1:02 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



theravenkidd wrote: Reid is a Tackle, a RT that should be used as such. Harewood/Osemele/Oher are much better options. There's no reason McKinnie should be on the bench at this point, pure ego. First it was that he was overweight (even though hes MUCH lighter than when he came in last year), and then some bogus reports of him not being committed during the offseason which is BS. If we have to play on the road in the playoffs with this current lineup, we're going to be one and done. Then the excuses will come by the droves, if we nip this in the bud now, we can run the tables.

Its just crazy how our F.O, year after year provides talent that our coaches dont use, only to fall short.
So, you REALLY think Harbaugh would rather lose possible playoff homefield advantange, which would risk losing another AFC championship game, risk going to and/or winning the Super Bowl - the incredibly rare goal that anyone and everyone related to football dreams about their entire lives, the goal that he and all his players - like Ray- have devoted their life to - he's going to risk all of that... all over 'ego'????
That makes absolute zero sense. Football is a game of inches and any advantage can and will cost the team wins. If Harbaugh thought McKinnie was the best option for us to win he'd be out there. The 'ego'/'doghouse' justifications over the years are utterly ridiculous.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 1:30 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



theravenkidd wrote: Reid is a Tackle, a RT that should be used as such. Harewood/Osemele/Oher are much better options. There's no reason McKinnie should be on the bench at this point, pure ego. First it was that he was overweight (even though hes MUCH lighter than when he came in last year), and then some bogus reports of him not being committed during the offseason which is BS. If we have to play on the road in the playoffs with this current lineup, we're going to be one and done. Then the excuses will come by the droves, if we nip this in the bud now, we can run the tables.

Its just crazy how our F.O, year after year provides talent that our coaches dont use, only to fall short.
I'm not sure we can come to this conclusion without seeing what is going on at practices.  Maybe McKinnie just isn't showing it during practice and is washed up.  I thought it was a money/cap issue, but maybe it is just as simple as him not being able to go a full game any longer.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 1:33 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


Who is Brian McKinnie?

No one by that name on the roster confused
Momma says, "Foosball is the Devil!

Last edited 11/27/2012 1:34 PM by Thedailydose

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Posted: 11/27/2012 1:36 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



Thedailydose wrote: Who is Brian McKinnie?

No one by that name on the roster confused

and in a few months, the other one won't be as well..
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Posted: 11/27/2012 1:39 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


Oher needs to be at either RT, or more preferably LG for the long term (assuming we re-sign him to a reasonable deal). I like Osemele at RT...I think his ability to handle speed will get better as his technique gets better...but he himself has said he liked LG, so I'd be fine with that too. Assuming Gradkowski is indeed the answer at Center, we need to draft a LT, or make a big move for a player like Ryan Clady in Free Agency (provided Denver doesn't place the Franchise Tag on him...they probably will).
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Posted: 11/27/2012 2:46 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



RavenResurrection wrote:
theravenkidd wrote: Reid is a Tackle, a RT that should be used as such. Harewood/Osemele/Oher are much better options. There's no reason McKinnie should be on the bench at this point, pure ego. First it was that he was overweight (even though hes MUCH lighter than when he came in last year), and then some bogus reports of him not being committed during the offseason which is BS. If we have to play on the road in the playoffs with this current lineup, we're going to be one and done. Then the excuses will come by the droves, if we nip this in the bud now, we can run the tables.

Its just crazy how our F.O, year after year provides talent that our coaches dont use, only to fall short.
So, you REALLY think Harbaugh would rather lose possible playoff homefield advantange, which would risk losing another AFC championship game, risk going to and/or winning the Super Bowl - the incredibly rare goal that anyone and everyone related to football dreams about their entire lives, the goal that he and all his players - like Ray- have devoted their life to - he's going to risk all of that... all over 'ego'????
That makes absolute zero sense. Football is a game of inches and any advantage can and will cost the team wins. If Harbaugh thought McKinnie was the best option for us to win he'd be out there. The 'ego'/'doghouse' justifications over the years are utterly ridiculous.
Ok you say its nonsense??? The why was a guy like Antwan Barnes let go when we had NO depth behind Sizzle or jarrett????? Then when Mattison was here we ran both Sizzle and JJ into the ground along with our other guys.....

Or better yet, we had a fresh Gurode when Birk was getting manhandled and yet we didnt use him knowing how poor Birk was playing. Issues like these will continue to create the perception of a "doghouse".
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Last edited 11/27/2012 2:57 PM by theravenkidd

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Posted: 11/27/2012 2:50 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



naca72 wrote: Oher needs to be at either RT, or more preferably LG for the long term (assuming we re-sign him to a reasonable deal). I like Osemele at RT...I think his ability to handle speed will get better as his technique gets better...but he himself has said he liked LG, so I'd be fine with that too. Assuming Gradkowski is indeed the answer at Center, we need to draft a LT, or make a big move for a player like Ryan Clady in Free Agency (provided Denver doesn't place the Franchise Tag on him...they probably will).
Our first priority is depth along the oline, and i think getting a kid like Barrett Jones could kill 3 birds with one stone. He could come in and play LG if needed, but he could also push Gradkowski for the cener position if Gradkowski isnt up to it. If we put ALL of our eggs into one basket at LT with Oher, and allow him to go into camp with zero competition and he gets hurt, Jones could play their in a snap as well.

I for one wouldnt mind seeing what Jake Lon has if hes available, i think hes just havin a down season, same as Joe Thomas. If we bring in an LT via FA, and bring in Jones thru the draft we'll be in a god place, we bring in an LT we can slide Oher to guard if needed, because Osemele & Reid have all the right tools to play RT.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 2:56 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



rantnrav wrote:
theravenkidd wrote: Reid is a Tackle, a RT that should be used as such. Harewood/Osemele/Oher are much better options. There's no reason McKinnie should be on the bench at this point, pure ego. First it was that he was overweight (even though hes MUCH lighter than when he came in last year), and then some bogus reports of him not being committed during the offseason which is BS. If we have to play on the road in the playoffs with this current lineup, we're going to be one and done. Then the excuses will come by the droves, if we nip this in the bud now, we can run the tables.

Its just crazy how our F.O, year after year provides talent that our coaches dont use, only to fall short.
I'm not sure we can come to this conclusion without seeing what is going on at practices.  Maybe McKinnie just isn't showing it during practice and is washed up.  I thought it was a money/cap issue, but maybe it is just as simple as him not being able to go a full game any longer.
My thing is, they had a weight requirement that he had to meet last season, he came in during the offseason MEETING those minimum requirements (which i believe was the 340-350 range if i remember correctly), then he had the injury and all hell breaks loose. The guy is a legit LT, they are too loyal to Oher for that spot when he could be used at a spot like guard.

After a while you get tired of hearing, "Joe has no protection" when thats BS. The coaches simply arent using the pieces correctly. If Joe is the player everyone thinks he is, it wont come to fruition behind this current lineup, and the excuses will continue.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 3:33 PM

Re: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



twazl634 wrote:
21XXXV wrote:
twazl634 wrote:
21XXXV wrote:
twazl634 wrote: I Hated the bobbie williams signing..thought it was a dumb move. I think when we play Denver and NYG, youll see alot of help to Osemele and Oher..but im more concerned with the inside..if there is no room for Flacco to step into the pocket thats where the trouble starts..he isnt that mobile of a QB, so when the pocket collapses, the play is over...

Our run game has to pick up over the next few weeks to counter-act other teams pass rush...
I disagree with the 'Joe isn't mobile' comment. This is an issue I have with the team, and I won't argue it, since he has started every game. But, Joe can run and he is much more nimble than most believe. I feel he should rollout out and keep teams Defense's honest with taking what the Defense gives him at time, gaining 8-10 yards and running out of bounds..
21 attempts, for 26 yards this year for Flacco...not very mobile. if the play breaks down, he needs to feel it, and move better outside of the pocket and run for yards.
You completely missed my point, as you usually do. I didn't say he was running, most of those 21 attempts were taking a knee.. My point again, listen carefully.. is, Joe can run if he chooses two, or if the play calls for it. He opts nopt to because the coaching staff suggests he doesn't. I can see both sides to it.
my point is he lacks pocket awareness sometimes and doesnt take off downfield when he has room to run to extend a play, rather than take a sack.
I agree with BOTH of you. Joe Flacco is a better athlete than he is preceived to be but he DOES need to "feel it" in order to take advantage of his athleticism, which most of the time he does not.

He has come a L O N G way in my opinion, so this is in no way a bash of Joe Flacco. He COULD take better advantage of running opportunities but does so only on rare occasion.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 4:47 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



Maybe Gurode wasn't in the doghouse, maybe he's just done.  If you haven't noticed, he is currently a street FA.

Barnes is a one trick pony.  He would be a sub-package player for us, getting after the QB.  He's not all that effective against the run.

You, myself, the coaches may all have a different idea on who the best 11 guys are for particular situations, but the idea that the FO or coaches purposefully shoot themselves in the foot for pride or ego is non-sense.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 5:15 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



RevTimBlessesDaRavens wrote:
Maybe Gurode wasn't in the doghouse, maybe he's just done.  If you haven't noticed, he is currently a street FA.

Barnes is a one trick pony.  He would be a sub-package player for us, getting after the QB.  He's not all that effective against the run.

You, myself, the coaches may all have a different idea on who the best 11 guys are for particular situations, but the idea that the FO or coaches purposefully shoot themselves in the foot for pride or ego is non-sense.
Who said anything about the f.O?? They are the ones that bring alot of damn good talent through the door.

And as far as Barns go, that "one trick pony" as you called him was the only guy consistently getting pressure prior to Sizzle getting the DPOY award, and he was the only guy that could bring constant pressure in Mattison's defense and yet they let him go with NO one behind Sizzle and JJ at that time. They put all of their eggs into JJ & Sizzle and it showed in the playoffs thats season. And to say that coaches dont make decisions base off of ego is absolutely ludicrous, if someone has potential to help us here and now & the F.O provided them all of the tools to succeed, and you cut their shelflife here short (see Harewood, see Antwan Barnes, see McKinnie) THATS ego & shortsightedness. 

Why in the world would anyone shutdown a YOUNG linemen like Harewood,who struggled but has ALOT of upside & has shown the ability to play the position very well, is very intelligent, but yet you keep a crippled old center in the lineup whos getting embarrassed and has NO upside?????

Im sorry but smells of blinding ego. Who keeps an old man who can barely push the middle over a healthy, fresh youngster who has shown the ability to man the LG spot.

Oh and regarding Gurode, Birk would be in the SAME PLACE if we hadnt given him that desperate and ridiculous contract
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Last edited 11/27/2012 5:16 PM by theravenkidd

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Posted: 11/27/2012 5:35 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



theravenkidd wrote: 

Who said anything about the f.O?? They are the ones that bring alot of damn good talent through the door.


And as far as Barns go, that "one trick pony" as you called him was the only guy consistently getting pressure prior to Sizzle getting the DPOY award, and he was the only guy that could bring constant pressure in Mattison's defense and yet they let him go with NO one behind Sizzle and JJ at that time. They put all of their eggs into JJ & Sizzle and it showed in the playoffs thats season. And to say that coaches dont make decisions base off of ego is absolutely ludicrous, if someone has potential to help us here and now & the F.O provided them all of the tools to succeed, and you cut their shelflife here short (see Harewood, see Antwan Barnes, see McKinnie) THATS ego & shortsightedness. 

Yeah, his one trick is speed rushing the passer.  That's it.  You keep saying "behind JJ" like Barnes would be out there setting the edge LOL.  Ludicrous is the notion that Harbaugh would purposefully run guys out there that he thinks are inferior because he's trying to prove a point?  He's trying to win games!

Why in the world would anyone shutdown a YOUNG linemen like Harewood,who struggled but has ALOT of upside & has shown the ability to play the position very well, is very intelligent, but yet you keep a crippled old center in the lineup whos getting embarrassed and has NO upside?????

What does Harewood have to do with Birk?  It's not like he's a center.  Hell, inserting Harewood into the lineup doesn't even free someone else to play center.  What are you even talking about?

Im sorry but smells of blinding ego. Who keeps an old man who can barely push the middle over a healthy, fresh youngster who has shown the ability to man the LG spot.

noidea  I have no idea where you are going with that.  I can only infer you think Harewood should be our center, but I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt as that would be a horrible idea.

Oh and regarding Gurode, Birk would be in the SAME PLACE if we hadnt given him that desperate and ridiculous contract

Regarding Gurode, you were pining for a guy who is out of work like the coaches made a mistake with him.  He sucks.  Randomly capitalizing words doesn't somehow make your points make any sense.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 5:39 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


Kidd, I understand your argument buddy.

Barnes' big thing with the team was that he was a backup LB that was a "one trick pony" that also didn't want to play special-teams (or atleast wasn't eager to). I dunno if you're aware of this but he reportedly was "tough to coach" regarding his all-around game.

When you put it in comparison with Paul Kruger, you see that although they both had limitations Kruger has ALWAYS been a "whatever you want, coach" type of player. Barnes, on the other hand, was not.

Realize that Barnes got bounced to Philly -- where his same 'limitations' got him bounced off that team -- and now he's a situational guy in San Diego.

There's a place in the NFL for limited players sometimes, but here in Baltimore our coaches want guys who desire to play "football" wherever its required and whatever is asked -- not just 'what you wanna do'. That's a main reason why McKinnie is holding his helmet while Oher is playing his spot. That'll be a reason why Jimmy Smith may have a hard time getting his cornerback reps back from Corey Graham once he's healthy. 

Harbs wants a "team". He wants players that'll fill whatever role is called for them, and do it eagerly and to the best of their ability. Antwan Barnes wanted to rush the passer, but he wasn't too eager to do much else (as in learning to be a solid overall LB). Jarrett Johnson was a college 3-technique at Bama that our organization asked to 'cut weight' and become a linebacker -- and he did so with no questions asked (and became a core player for our defense). Ayanbedejo is an average LB at best, but the guy will do WHATEVER IS ASKED OF HIM...

McClellan is an undrafted guy who just brings his lunchpail to work and does whatever he can in whatever you ask of him.

now you don't think a guy as athletic as Barnes couldn't be all over the place doing whatever here in a Ravens' uniform, but those guys are still here (except JJ)? You think the team wanted to part ways with Barnes?

Its all about being team-oriented and showing what Harbs (and the coaches) are asking of you. Barnes wasn't team-oriented, so he's gone. McKinnie doesn't take the game seriously, so he holds his helmet.

Now Kidd, it may not be how you would do things, but its the way Harbs desires it (in many ways, this is how Belicheck does things in New England too).

We'll see how things play out going forward my friend.

C DiP
Poundin' da rock & Punishin' D wins games, period!!!
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Posted: 11/27/2012 6:42 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



CDiPiranha wrote: Kidd, I understand your argument buddy.

Barnes' big thing with the team was that he was a backup LB that was a "one trick pony" that also didn't want to play special-teams (or atleast wasn't eager to). I dunno if you're aware of this but he reportedly was "tough to coach" regarding his all-around game.

When you put it in comparison with Paul Kruger, you see that although they both had limitations Kruger has ALWAYS been a "whatever you want, coach" type of player. Barnes, on the other hand, was not.

Realize that Barnes got bounced to Philly -- where his same 'limitations' got him bounced off that team -- and now he's a situational guy in San Diego.

There's a place in the NFL for limited players sometimes, but here in Baltimore our coaches want guys who desire to play "football" wherever its required and whatever is asked -- not just 'what you wanna do'. That's a main reason why McKinnie is holding his helmet while Oher is playing his spot. That'll be a reason why Jimmy Smith may have a hard time getting his cornerback reps back from Corey Graham once he's healthy. 

Harbs wants a "team". He wants players that'll fill whatever role is called for them, and do it eagerly and to the best of their ability. Antwan Barnes wanted to rush the passer, but he wasn't too eager to do much else (as in learning to be a solid overall LB). Jarrett Johnson was a college 3-technique at Bama that our organization asked to 'cut weight' and become a linebacker -- and he did so with no questions asked (and became a core player for our defense). Ayanbedejo is an average LB at best, but the guy will do WHATEVER IS ASKED OF HIM...

McClellan is an undrafted guy who just brings his lunchpail to work and does whatever he can in whatever you ask of him.

now you don't think a guy as athletic as Barnes couldn't be all over the place doing whatever here in a Ravens' uniform, but those guys are still here (except JJ)? You think the team wanted to part ways with Barnes?

Its all about being team-oriented and showing what Harbs (and the coaches) are asking of you. Barnes wasn't team-oriented, so he's gone. McKinnie doesn't take the game seriously, so he holds his helmet.

Now Kidd, it may not be how you would do things, but its the way Harbs desires it (in many ways, this is how Belicheck does things in New England too).

We'll see how things play out going forward my friend.

C DiP
I would disagree with Belichick. He wouldnt have someone like McKinnie here period, if that were the case hes a no nonsense guy and youre either here doing what the team asks of you (at 100%) or gone, but Belichick doesnt fool around with Kraft's money.

And regarding Barnes, our biggest issue at that point in time WAS pressure on the Qb an he was the ONLY one who could do so on a consistent basis, he may have bounced around, but he absolutely bounced on us last year & still gave us hell this past game. You do know barnes is the SAME guy that almost put the stamp on the game sunday??????? The same supposedly "bum" that everyone makes him out to be???

My thing is Ozzie continually brings in gems & talent that is either misused or isnt used at all, and great coaches utilize every piece, all parts of a team. They were going the right route with Harewood and totally flopped with that, they flopped with not having Grad at center after the Bye, they are flopping with Reid by not having him solely at RT (as backup or starter), its like, why even have Ozzie bring these guys in??? Why expect so much from Joe when the oline that protects him is in shambles????
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Last edited 11/27/2012 6:44 PM by theravenkidd

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Posted: 11/27/2012 6:47 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


Was it not Belichick that signed Haynesworth... I know h eventually cut him, and wasn't responsible for the money, but Hoodie isn't that sacred yet.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 6:53 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



21XXXV wrote: Was it not Belichick that signed Haynesworth... I know h eventually cut him, and wasn't responsible for the money, but Hoodie isn't that sacred yet.
Thats the whole point, both haynesworth and Chad didnt stay around long, those spots could be used for someone else.
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Posted: 11/27/2012 7:59 PM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



RevTimBlessesDaRavens wrote:
Maybe Gurode wasn't in the doghouse, maybe he's just done.  If you haven't noticed, he is currently a street FA.

Barnes is a one trick pony.  He would be a sub-package player for us, getting after the QB.  He's not all that effective against the run.

You, myself, the coaches may all have a different idea on who the best 11 guys are for particular situations, but the idea that the FO or coaches purposefully shoot themselves in the foot for pride or ego is non-sense.
By the way, he was just signed by Chicago, FWIW
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Posted: 11/28/2012 6:34 AM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



theravenkidd wrote:
rantnrav wrote:
theravenkidd wrote: Reid is a Tackle, a RT that should be used as such. Harewood/Osemele/Oher are much better options. There's no reason McKinnie should be on the bench at this point, pure ego. First it was that he was overweight (even though hes MUCH lighter than when he came in last year), and then some bogus reports of him not being committed during the offseason which is BS. If we have to play on the road in the playoffs with this current lineup, we're going to be one and done. Then the excuses will come by the droves, if we nip this in the bud now, we can run the tables.

Its just crazy how our F.O, year after year provides talent that our coaches dont use, only to fall short.
I'm not sure we can come to this conclusion without seeing what is going on at practices.  Maybe McKinnie just isn't showing it during practice and is washed up.  I thought it was a money/cap issue, but maybe it is just as simple as him not being able to go a full game any longer.
My thing is, they had a weight requirement that he had to meet last season, he came in during the offseason MEETING those minimum requirements (which i believe was the 340-350 range if i remember correctly), then he had the injury and all hell breaks loose. The guy is a legit LT, they are too loyal to Oher for that spot when he could be used at a spot like guard.

After a while you get tired of hearing, "Joe has no protection" when thats BS. The coaches simply arent using the pieces correctly. If Joe is the player everyone thinks he is, it wont come to fruition behind this current lineup, and the excuses will continue.
Again, I think you may be jumping to conclusions.  As you said, he came in lighter than last year, so I don't think that is it.  What we don't know is why he isn't playing.  You are quick to say it is because they don't like him, but we just don't know.  It very well might be that he has regressed that far over the past year.  After all, with all that partying he may not be nearly as strong.  You can lose all the weight you want, but if it is the wrong weight you are in trouble.  If he didn't work out with the weights, but just lost the weight by running and maybe some diet pills that wouldn't produce a very good product on the field.

We just don't know.  We seem to have had this same conversation about Gaither and I think we can all agree the organization made the correct call there.  He has already worn out his welcome in San Diego after signing a big contract.  I'm sure glad he didn't sign it with us.

Now, let's assume for a minute and say you are correct.  They simply want to make an example out of him.  Well, in the long run, that is what builds a great organization.  That is what separates organizations like the Ravens and Steelers from the ones like the Bengals and Browns.  Players understand that when they come and play for us, they better bring their lunch pales hard hats.  They better come ready and willing to give everything they've got and play for the team.  Not themselves.  As Ray Lewis has said, all that other stuff takes care of itself when you play for the team and win.  If we let guys like Gaither and McKinnie slide then we lose that mentality.  We don't want to chase short term gain at the expense of long term prosperity.
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Posted: 11/28/2012 8:04 AM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 


McKinnie, Osemele, Birk, Yanda and Oher is what I'd like to see for the stretch run. As far as Grubbs helping out last year, not sure that to be the case as Grubbs missed some time last year. What the setup is now is not working and its going to cost them long term unless they make a change and now is the time to do it. I hate lazy players as well but dont make a stand in season simply show him the door come March 1st. LG has been horrible for the Ravens while Oher and Osemele have been inconsistent this season. Birk is getting blown up way to often however you could hide him against most teams if what is around him is up to par and Reid,Harwood and Williams are not up for the task.
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Posted: 11/28/2012 9:23 AM

RE: Bobbie Williams & Brian McKinnie 



sczepp wrote: McKinnie, Osemele, Birk, Yanda and Oher is what I'd like to see for the stretch run. As far as Grubbs helping out last year, not sure that to be the case as Grubbs missed some time last year. What the setup is now is not working and its going to cost them long term unless they make a change and now is the time to do it. I hate lazy players as well but dont make a stand in season simply show him the door come March 1st. LG has been horrible for the Ravens while Oher and Osemele have been inconsistent this season. Birk is getting blown up way to often however you could hide him against most teams if what is around him is up to par and Reid,Harwood and Williams are not up for the task.
Thats the entire point zepp. While he's here USE HIM, if not then show him the door, use the cap and allocate it somewhere else if you dont want him or need him, its that simple. All of these reports about his work habits and what not and yet, you still keep him?? Makes no sense whatsoever.
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