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3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left

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Posted: 11/19/2012 8:53 AM

3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


I've heard Baghdad's comment, I'd like to hear anyone's reasonable debate on this horrific call. I have never seen a call like this when the team is up by 3.
- Take a timeout
- Shotgun Snap
- QB in harms way
- 3 potential disasterous outcomes. Bad Snap, Sack, Fumble, Recovery, Blindside hit, OMG, an INT.....
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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:08 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


Haven't heard the comment, so with that being said, when have you ever seen a head coach/ manager , throw one of his coaches under the bus?

Horrible call. Cam should be shown the door based just on that one alone..  Were the stealers out of time outs at that point? I think they were. So if you run, outside and not into the teeth of the D like he foolishly did before, you either 1- make it and end the game there or 2- miss and keep the clock running. A pass is the very last thing you want to do in that situation.

Even if they had 1 TO left they have to burn it there and you still run a few more seconds off the clock.
 
  Maybe Cam was thinking he could fool them by lining up in the shotgun and throwing a post.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:08 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


They weren't able to run the ball all night. Flacco took the sack so the clock would keep moving. Sack wasn't a bad outcome for us. I liked how it was aggressive. They trusted Flacco to either move the chains or to keep the clock running. He succeeded. Don't over analyze the play, we won.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:11 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


So take an effing knee!

You apologists for these idiot coaching moves are crazy.

Last edited 11/19/2012 9:13 AM by 21XXXV

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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:26 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



edreed4mvp wrote: Sack wasn't a bad outcome for us.
No it wasn't. But it could have been had he fumbled, picked, or got hurt.. 

Cam wasn't aggressive all night. He plays that way on the road all the time.
So why try something that risky in that situation when you could try running Ray to the outside? Achives the same objective with the less amount of risk.

Play calling on the road is horrible.  We're timid and predictable.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:41 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


Don't forget blowing two timeouts.

The timeout wasted before that 3rd and 2 play. And then the boneheaded timeout before the the play clock went to zero before the punt. Koch pooched the punt to begin with, so why not take the 5 yard penalty.


These brainless moves will ultimately cost this team. They the Ravens, deserve better. The RAvens won despite these idiots.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:43 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


Inexcusable in that situation. I haven't been one of the people screaming about 3rd/ 4th and short and throwing the ball, because when we have to score I don't really have a problem with it.

If we're going to run a play like that in that situation, at least make it a designed QB run.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:45 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


I understand the frustration with Cam's play calling. It drives me nuts too. However, don't oversimplify the situation by saying just have Ray Rice run outside like it's that easy. Rice averaged 2 yards a carry last night and contrary to some opinions, he doesn't run wide well. His strength in his running style is his vision and ability to cut at full speed, not his speed which is average for a RB.

In retrospect, the call wasn't bad. Throw a sure completion or take a sack and run 40 seconds off the clock. It worked out. Don't forget to factor in the play of the players when eviscerating the coaching staff week in and week out. Believe it or not, that has something to do with the game too.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:48 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


I dont agree with that - it is the mindset that bothers me. Take the safe out! That is a problem.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:50 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


There is no excuse for such a horrendous play call. I would also like to know why we never use play action or take a deep shot on 2nd and 1?
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Posted: 11/19/2012 9:53 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



Nowayallthesenamesaretaken wrote: I understand the frustration with Cam's play calling. It drives me nuts too. However, don't oversimplify the situation by saying just have Ray Rice run outside like it's that easy. Rice averaged 2 yards a carry last night and contrary to some opinions, he doesn't run wide well. His strength in his running style is his vision and ability to cut at full speed, not his speed which is average for a RB.

In retrospect, the call wasn't bad. Throw a sure completion or take a sack and run 40 seconds off the clock. It worked out. Don't forget to factor in the play of the players when eviscerating the coaching staff week in and week out. Believe it or not, that has something to do with the game too.
Are you effing kidding me........ ! Taking a knee accomplishes the same thing without the risk. Are you breathing the same oxygen that I am?

Last edited 11/19/2012 9:54 AM by 21XXXV

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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:00 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


Is there anyone here who watched that game last night that honestly thought Pittsburgh would move the ball far enough in the last minute to get a FG in the open end of the stadium? Leftwich was hurt and had nothing left in his arm (evidence on that wide open miss he had when the ball hit the turf 5 yards in front of his target). So you defend the intermediate routes (which we did) and separate the receiver from the ball (which we did - and oh how I've missed football like that!)

Flacco was probably told take a safe pass that puts the ball past the 1st down marker. If it isn't there, hit the deck. Under no circumstances can you afford to let the clock stop. It worked. Road division wins are hard enough to come by, especially there.

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!

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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:04 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


if the point of that play call is to be conservative, why even put the ball in flaccos hands, especially when their OLB's were starting to get pressure...sack fumble, ball strip can lose you the game...while same could happen to rice, ill take my chances he can fall forward for 2 yards..

"Got a cover of Sports Illustrated..it says the Titans are the best team in football...maybe they are...but not today" Brian Billick

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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:06 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


Respectfully, No one can defend that horrible play call. Again, I am not complaining about the play outcome of the 3rd and 2. I am stating the fact that if your point is to be careful, you simply take a knee and the result is the same.

I can take the heat, but I am not waivering. Our HC and OC are both idiots. And the folks on this board, despite the Win have to come to grips with this snake oil we are being asked to buy!
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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:10 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


I honestly don't mind the play call. You can't complain about "playing not to lose" and then complain about being too agressive. Thing was 2 receiver were open. We weren't getting ANY push all day in short yardage with the running game and the way it was going we were more likely to convert that (and thus end the game) throwing than running. Even with Flacco and the receivers playing as poorly as they did.

As it turned out, it was inconsequential.

I remember a very similar play in Miami in the playoffs in 2001 where Grbac hit Travis Taylor...
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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:27 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



21XXXV wrote: Respectfully, No one can defend that horrible play call. Again, I am not complaining about the play outcome of the 3rd and 2. I am stating the fact that if your point is to be careful, you simply take a knee and the result is the same.

I can take the heat, but I am not waivering. Our HC and OC are both idiots. And the folks on this board, despite the Win have to come to grips with this snake oil we are being asked to buy!
Except with them (OC and HC) and our QB we're 8-2 and will have made the playoffs 5 years straight baring implosion this year.  We were a catch or a kick of playing in the Superbowl, and we've been in 2 AFCCGs.


And don't give me that the defense is taking us there, because we had the same defense, if not better, in the Billick year, and we weren't going to the playoffs year in year out.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:31 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


How many Super Bowls have we been to under this staff? Close your eyes and what do you see? That's how many..

You sound like a PR man for Andy Reid. How many have the Steelers been to under Flip Wilson? The answer is 2 for Flip. Before you start anointing Baghdad Bob, let's wait until he gets there.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:36 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


We should've tried to get 2 yards with Ray Rice behind Leach.  Seems like we always forget we have the best fullback in football in big short yardage situations and we turn to our QB who's shaky at best on the road.  That said, I give credit to Flacco there for taking the sack.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:52 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



21XXXV wrote: How many Super Bowls have we been to under this staff? Close your eyes and what do you see? That's how many..

You sound like a PR man for Andy Reid. How many have the Steelers been to under Flip Wilson? The answer is 2 for Flip. Before you start anointing Baghdad Bob, let's wait until he gets there.

Man, the grass is always greener, huh?  You realize only 2 teams get to go the the Superbowl each year, only 1 wins?  And only 4 teams of 32 make it to conference championships each year?

I'm not saying I dont want to win the big one, but we were right there, it was on LEE EVANS to catch the ball, or Cundiff to make the kick to force OT.   Very little of that was on coaching, it was invidual execution.

Both players in question are currently out of the league.  I think thats telling.

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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:53 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



DieHardRavensFan17 wrote: We should've tried to get 2 yards with Ray Rice behind Leach.  Seems like we always forget we have the best fullback in football in big short yardage situations and we turn to our QB who's shaky at best on the road.  That said, I give credit to Flacco there for taking the sack.

You mean like the earlier 3rd and less than a foot where we did exactly that but didn't convert?
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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:54 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


Dave if these observations were a rare occurance that would be one thing, but we have seen this for many years.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 10:59 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



21XXXV, I'm pretty sure we breath the same oxygen. Is that supposed to make me feel stupid ? It doesn't. I've actually played and coached (graduate assistant)the game at the college level so I have some point of reference here.

Though some of you may not like to hear this. They didn't run it because they didn't have the confidence we could get the 2 yards. Based on the way we played the entire game, that is an OUTSTANDING assumption. Secondly, the difference between the sack and taking a knee is HUGE. The play call was not to "give up" on getting a 1st down like taking a knee would have been. The play call was to throw a short pass for a 1st down, HOWEVER if there wasn't an option for a sure completion, do not risk an incompletion to stop the clock, take the sack.

Guys, we converted 3 3rd downs all game !!!!!!!!! When you're on the field, you know what you can and can't do by the end of the game. We weren't going to do something that last 3rd down we weren't able to do all day.

Though I disagree with it, and I'm not happy with it, Our gameplan last night was similiar to the Texans playoff game last year. We had a back up QB that wasn't going to beat us, so we were going to run an offense that didn't beat itself. It worked.

That last 3rd and 2 was extremely conservative, but far from the worst call in the history of football some of you are claiming. The play took 6 seconds and with the 40 second play clock took 46 seconds off the game that only had 1:56 left and they were out of timeouts. I understand the call. That being said, if we don't change our playcalling on the road, we're not going to get where we want to go. I'm not happy with the offensive philosophy on the road.

Give me something other than how stupid I am as a counter argument for the 3rd and 2 call though.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:00 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



21XXXV wrote: Dave if these observations were a rare occurance that would be one thing, but we have seen this for many years.

The way we were running the ball we were a long shot to conver that 3rd and 2. The Steelers were out of timeouts and had a gimpy at best QB. I'm not saying it was a no brainer to throw there; it wasn't. But it's also not the dumbest thing we could have done.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:05 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



Nowayallthesenamesaretaken wrote:
21XXXV, I'm pretty sure we breath the same oxygen. Is that supposed to make me feel stupid ? It doesn't. I've actually played and coached (graduate assistant)the game at the college level so I have some point of reference here.

Though some of you may not like to hear this. They didn't run it because they didn't have the confidence we could get the 2 yards. Based on the way we played the entire game, that is an OUTSTANDING assumption. Secondly, the difference between the sack and taking a knee is HUGE. The play call was not to "give up" on getting a 1st down like taking a knee would have been. The play call was to throw a short pass for a 1st down, HOWEVER if there wasn't an option for a sure completion, do not risk an incompletion to stop the clock, take the sack.

Guys, we converted 3 3rd downs all game !!!!!!!!! When you're on the field, you know what you can and can't do by the end of the game. We weren't going to do something that last 3rd down we weren't able to do all day.

Though I disagree with it, and I'm not happy with it, Our gameplan last night was similiar to the Texans playoff game last year. We had a back up QB that wasn't going to beat us, so we were going to run an offense that didn't beat itself. It worked.

That last 3rd and 2 was extremely conservative, but far from the worst call in the history of football some of you are claiming. The play took 6 seconds and with the 40 second play clock took 46 seconds off the game that only had 1:56 left and they were out of timeouts. I understand the call. That being said, if we don't change our playcalling on the road, we're not going to get where we want to go. I'm not happy with the offensive philosophy on the road.

Give me something other than how stupid I am as a counter argument for the 3rd and 2 call though.
Take a knee
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:06 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


21XXV -

What does the Baghdad Bob reference mean ?
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:11 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 




His Pressor is at 4PM
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:19 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


I would have like to see the Ravens go jumbo formation and fake a hand off to RR going to the right and have Flacco roll out on a naked boot. if a defender was there then he could just hit the deck, but the way Harrison was crashing down on the runs to the right I think Flacco could have made it. either that or spread them out and call a designed QB run from the shotgun. of course there is a worst case scenario to either of those and hindsight is 20/20 but attempting a pass is just too risky.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:25 AM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



21XXXV wrote:

His Pressor is at 4PM

Honestly, the Bagdad Bob moniker non-sense doesn't do your argument any good, it comes off like you're trying to position yourself as the next Mike Preston.


People have made the basic strategical arguments of why the call was made.  The counter hasn't been dialogue, is the moniker and (funny) pictures like the one above.  But its not showing much in the way of dialogue and actual logic.


Last night was a game that we shouldn't lose, and we didn't.

the argument seems to be is that it was also a game that shouldn't  have been that close, but which one matters more - a W or style points?


Patriots won with style points.  Also lost Gronkowski for 4-6 weeks.

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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:27 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


bad coaching would have been to ask Joe to throw the ball and make sure we convert that 3rd down.  Good coaching is asking your qb to look for a 100% pass play and if it's not there to take a sack to keep the clock running.  You are a fool to think that TAK there is the correct call.  You have no idea if the corner blitzes leaving Torrey wide open for an easy conversion.  ...and Jesus H Christ...taking the sack essentially is the same as TAK there.
So if you want to criticize the coaching fine...that's your perogative, but IMO they called a safe and effective play.  You're coming across as the quintessential Monday morning quarterback.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:40 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


Sorry, but, I spoke about it before the game.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:48 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



RavenLunatic wrote: bad coaching would have been to ask Joe to throw the ball and make sure we convert that 3rd down.  Good coaching is asking your qb to look for a 100% pass play and if it's not there to take a sack to keep the clock running.  You are a fool to think that TAK there is the correct call.  You have no idea if the corner blitzes leaving Torrey wide open for an easy conversion.  ...and Jesus H Christ...taking the sack essentially is the same as TAK there.
So if you want to criticize the coaching fine...that's your perogative, but IMO they called a safe and effective play.  You're coming across as the quintessential Monday morning quarterback.
We have a lot of clueless here. I don't see how anyone could have an issue with that call. Me? Sure maybe I'd have gone PA but the last thing they wanted to do was have Flacco's back to the defense even for a split second.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:50 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


The Bhagdad Bob thing is very possibly the dumbest comparison I've ever heard.  Give it a rest.  You don't like Harbaugh, we get it already ....
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Posted: 11/19/2012 11:56 AM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


While I certainly didn't agree with the call and I was shouting to run the ball, I don't think it was as horrendous as many would believe. 

I think their thinking was that the Steelers were going to sell out to the run.  If the easy throw was there, take it.  If not, milk the clock as long as possible and then go down with both hands on the ball.  If nothing else, it took a few additional seconds to run the play than if you just hand off.  That additional few seconds could have been the difference if that long pass was completed.  I think they would have been a second or two short of spiking the ball had they completed it and got tackled right away with around 10 seconds left.

Anyway, I would have taken the safer play and just hand off and take my chances, but you know they would have been trying to punch that ball out, so it isn't like handing off is 100% safe either.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 12:05 PM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


I didn't love the call but I wasn't screaming at the TV over it, either.  I had little to no confidence that our running game could get that first down, so attempting a very safe pass seemed reasonable, if not my first choice.  Flacco made the right decision (unlike, say, Rashard Mendenhall just moments later) so the clock kept ticking away, which was the most important result of the play.

And, really, I'm tired of the "How many Super Bowls has ______ been to?"  I used to feel that way, but now I realize that it's crazy that that's the barometer.  Any team that gets hot at the right time in January, and gets a little lucky, can get to the big game.  It just hasn't been us yet.  But we've certainly been in position to get there pretty consistently.  We've won a playoff game in each of the past 4 years - really, that's more impressive to me than the Giants' fluky run last post-season.  Of course, I'd trade the last four years for one Super Bowl win, but that's not the point!

And the Ravens just might surprise you Debbie Downers and win the Super Bowl this year.  It would be fitting, after having better teams the last few years, that this bunch gets hot in the post-season...
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Posted: 11/19/2012 12:42 PM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



21XXXV wrote: Respectfully, No one can defend that horrible play call. Again, I am not complaining about the play outcome of the 3rd and 2. I am stating the fact that if your point is to be careful, you simply take a knee and the result is the same.

I can take the heat, but I am not waivering. Our HC and OC are both idiots. And the folks on this board, despite the Win have to come to grips with this snake oil we are being asked to buy!
As much as I hate Cameron, I can't understand how you can call Harbaugh an idiot. How many idiots have a 57-26 record in their 1st 4 1/2 years as a Head Coach? Sure every once in a while a clueless HC will "luck" into a SB trophy(i.e. Barry Switzer). But if Coach wins consistently for over 4 years, IMHO, he's legit. If that idiot was fired after this year, about 28 other teams would be bidding for his services
If you see me wearing a turban and sandals that means the Steelers are playing Iraq
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Posted: 11/19/2012 12:51 PM

RE: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 


Cut the personal attacks please

"When you go in the lion's den, you don't tippy toe in.You carry a spear, you go in screaming like a banshee, you kick whatever doors in, and say, 'Where's the son of a bitch!'If you go in any other way you're gonna lose.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 12:54 PM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



Nowayallthesenamesaretaken wrote:
Though some of you may not like to hear this. They didn't run it because they didn't have the confidence we could get the 2 yards.
If they got the first down or not is not the issue in my mind.  When passing theres more things that can go wrong than running.  IMO the run was the safest way to accomplish the goal, either get a first down, or if you don't, the clock continues to run..

 Harbs comment pretty much verifies that opinion. He said that if a sure recpetion was not there then he was to take the sack. gaining the first down was not the #1 objective running the clock was. The safe way to do that is run the ball.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 1:05 PM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



ravmaniac wrote:
Nowayallthesenamesaretaken wrote:
Though some of you may not like to hear this. They didn't run it because they didn't have the confidence we could get the 2 yards.
If they got the first down or not is not the issue in my mind.  When passing theres more things that can go wrong than running.  IMO the run was the safest way to accomplish the goal, either get a first down, or if you don't, the clock continues to run..

 Harbs comment pretty much verifies that opinion. He said that if a sure recpetion was not there then he was to take the sack. gaining the first down was not the #1 objective running the clock was. The safe way to do that is run the ball.
Like I said before, dropping back to pass and taking the sack if it wasn't a sure thing took several more seconds off the clock than just running into the line.  With such little time left those couple of seconds could have been the difference between lining up for a field goal and having the clock run out.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 1:10 PM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



rantnrav wrote:
Like I said before, dropping back to pass and taking the sack if it wasn't a sure thing took several more seconds off the clock than just running into the line.  With such little time left those couple of seconds could have been the difference between lining up for a field goal and having the clock run out.
Theres other risks invovled when passing.. James Harrison putting the kabong on Flacco comes to mind. A fumble comes to mind. if he thought he had a play and it was incomplete the clock stops. or a pick would have been a disaster

Running the ball there would serve the same purpose and be the safer play.
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Posted: 11/19/2012 1:10 PM

Re: 3rd and 2 with 2:00 Left 



ravmaniac wrote:
Nowayallthesenamesaretaken wrote:
Though some of you may not like to hear this. They didn't run it because they didn't have the confidence we could get the 2 yards.
If they got the first down or not is not the issue in my mind.  When passing theres more things that can go wrong than running.  IMO the run was the safest way to accomplish the goal, either get a first down, or if you don't, the clock continues to run..

 Harbs comment pretty much verifies that opinion. He said that if a sure recpetion was not there then he was to take the sack. gaining the first down was not the #1 objective running the clock was. The safe way to do that is run the ball.
I read an article on this 3rd and 2 earlier this morning (can't remember exactly what site, might have been SI).  Flacco was under strict orders from Harbaugh and Cameron to only throw the ball if the receiver was a sure thing (ie, wide open) for the first down.  If it wasn't there, take the sack.  But under no circumstances was he allowed to do anything that would stop the clock.

The way Leftwich (and the rest of the Steelers for that matter) had been performing all night, and given the apparent shoulder injury to Leftwich, there was very little chance of them moving the ball 50 yards in the 1:12 they had left.  After the run play that chewed up half the remaining clock, they had next to no chance at all.  Once they started pitching the ball, you knew it was over.

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!!

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